What exactly makes Calgary’s Defense elite?

[aufheben]

What D pairs are the Flames running? Their shot rates seem to be considerably better on the right side.

 

[PunkRockLocke]

Brodie made Brandon Sutter look as fast as McDavid last night on that SH goal.

Calgary D is quite overrated. They tried to build a 'big 4' somewhat following Nashville's model, but they have a #2 in Giordano, two #3 in Hamonic and Hamilton, and a #4 in Brodie. Not all that special. Compared to Preds having two #1's (Josi, Subban) and two #2's (Ekholm, Ellis)

Also, love SabresFan44 using a thread about the Flamers to take yet another shot at the Canucks. Pretty hilarious how much a Buffalo fan can hate the Canucks

 

[Nick Hansen]

Brodie made Brandon Sutter look as fast as McDavid last night on that SH goal.

Calgary D is quite overrated. They tried to build a 'big 4' somewhat following Nashville's model, but they have a #2 in Giordano, two #3 in Hamonic and Hamilton, and a #4 in Brodie. Not all that special. Compared to Preds having two #1's (Josi, Subban) and two #2's (Ekholm, Ellis)

Also, love SabresFan44 using a thread about the Flamers to take yet another shot at the Canucks. Pretty hilarious how much a Buffalo fan can hate the Canucks

Lol.

Putting Hamonic above Brodie. Hamonic is a tire fire and was so last season too. People thought Flames had made such an acquisition but honestly, he doesn't impress me at all.

 

[Paulinvancouver]

Better question.
What is it with your hate on for the Canucks? Is it with your head?
#thinlyveiled

To answer the question though, I always thought Gio was a somewhat decent D known mainly for his shot, with everyone else ranking below him.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I never realized that Brodie was so slow until last night.
I was kind of shocked that Sutter blew by him so easily.

 

[Machinehead]

Hamonic is bad and they still don't have good goaltending

 

[Jyrki Lumme]

Brett Kulak and Matt Bartkowski

 

[Critical13]

They have made Mike Smith look pretty damn good, so that's something.

I don't like Brodie or Hamonic but the rest is pretty darn good.

 

[Baxterman]

At even strength, this year plus last year:

T.J.Brodie (27): 97gms, 18:37 (B qoc), 0.78p60, 50.4cf% (-0.9rel), 48.1xgf% (-2.2rel)
Hamonic (27): 62gms, 17:37 (B+ qoc), 0.67p60, 45.0cf% (-3.5rel), 43.9xgf% (-5.6rel)


This just doesn't really look like all that good a 2nd pair, tbh.

Watching the games and they have been quite good. Another example of stats doing nothing to tell what actually is happening out there.

 

[Baxterman]

Hamonic is bad and they still don't have good goaltending

Hamonic has been great so far this season and Mike Smith is top 10 in sv % and GAA for starters.

So wrong on both points.

 

[deckercky]

Their top 4 are very good, but 3/4 are better offensive players than they are defensive players. I think it's a case of a lot of good pieces being put together with the sum being worse than its parts.

Having a trash third pairing doesn't help, but the top pairs haven't ever really come together as a solid group defensively (during this core's best years they outscored any defensive questions).

 

[Machinehead]

Hamonic has been great so far this season and Mike Smith is top 10 in sv % and GAA for starters.

So wrong on both points.

Smith has had a good start, that's true, but Hamonic sucks. He's one of those defensemen who's "good at defending" because he's always defending.

 

[Baxterman]

Smith has had a good start, that's true, but Hamonic sucks. He's one of those defensemen who's "good at defending" because he's always defending.

That hasn't been the case in his time in Calgary or when I watched him in NYI.

 

[Machinehead]

That hasn't been the case in his time in Calgary or when I watched him in NYI.

Then try watching him better.

 

[Baxterman]

Then try watching him better.

Great argument.

Out of curiosity how many Flames games have you watched this year?

 

[Machinehead]

Great argument.

Out of curiosity how many Flames games have you watched this year?

I'm not gonna get into a "hurrr I wetch der gamez" argument.

Hamonic played his whole career in New York. I've seen him.

 

[Baxterman]

I'm not gonna get into a "hurrr I wetch der gamez" argument.

Hamonic played his whole career in New York. I've seen him.

Except your response to me when I said Hamonic has played well in Calgary and wasn't like what you described was to "watch him better" so that is exactly the game you are playing.

I guess I am not sure why you are commenting on a guys play when you haven't watched him play.

 

[PunkRockLocke]

Lol.

Putting Hamonic above Brodie. Hamonic is a tire fire and was so last season too. People thought Flames had made such an acquisition but honestly, he doesn't impress me at all.

Fair enough. I haven't watched Hamonic play all that much over the course of his career, with him being with the Islanders and all...I do think Brodie is pretty overrated though and middling second pair dman at best.

 

[Mobiandi]

People aren't even pointing the finger at the right players in this thread. They're just rattling off a bunch of misinformed opinions. Like Hamonic, for one? L o l

To address the topic at hand:

Gio has been rock solid and hasn't lost a step defensively. Hamonic has had one or two bad turnovers but he's been by far and away our second best defenseman.

The problem is with Brodie and Hamilton, both of which have looked incredibly suspect defensively. The problem with the former is that he's logging far too many minutes a night in my opinion. It's a double edged sword with him. He's the only dman that's been given the reins to carry the puck up (which is incredibly odd considering our glut of offensively skilled defensemen) and looks good on the transition but is prone to losing his man in our zone. Hamilton on the other hand has been neutered offensively due to the odd system we play and has been victimized often by speedy players on the rush, making him look pretty bad.

The problem is also with our passive system which is predicated on mitigation of chances, rather than prevention. Teams gain the zone on us far too easily, while we look to absorb pressure, adopt a rigid defensive structure and force low danger shots. But this is a high-risk strategy because our top 4 isn't good enough to carry this out for extended periods of time.

Also Matt Bartkowski is a thing.

 

[madmike77]

First pairing is elite. Rest of the group, not so much.

Brodie was awesome two seasons ago - even after Gio got injured. He's been a shadow of his former self the last two years.

Hamonic is just meh.

Third pairing is ok when it's Stone and Kulak. When Bartkowski is on the ice it's ugly.

 

[biturbo19]

I think they're a team that is overrated defensively as a whole.

Their blueline has some good players, and is capable of generating some impressive point totals...but there's really only one anchor of a shutdown unit among them (Gio), and a second guy who is a good solid complement as a matchup guy (Hamonic). Brodie is a fun, excellent skating puck-mover/offensive defenceman who has some real holes defensively. Hamilton fools people by putting up nice points (and being big i guess?), but he's very weak defensively and that isn't anything new.

It's a bit of a "less than the sum of it's parts" group to my eye. Not a Top-4 group that fits together all that great imo. It'd be frustrating as a coach, because there are good pieces there, but no matter how you try to fit them together, something undesirable happens.

Going back to Gio-Brodie is appealing, but that leaves two RHS in Hamilton/Hamonic that won't work on the same pairing. So i'd want to go to Gio-Hamonic which i'd be happy with, but then you're putting match/gasoline together with a Brodie-Hamilton pairing, where they realistic both need at least a bit of a babysitter (more than a bit in Hamilton's case). Or...you're bringing in someone who isn't among your best 4 defencemen to the Top-4D. So instead, you end up with everything sort of compromised.

It's also not just about their defencemen. The other element, is that they have a lot of defensively poor forwards. Starting at the very top with Gaudreau. Dynamic offensive player, but one of the worst floaters in the league. Bunch of guys from there on down who really aren't stout 2-way forwards either. Severely compromises effectiveness as a 5 man defensive unit to have weak links like that. The system doesn't seem to really help mask that either.


The biggest thing though, probably is still that they just don't get quality goaltending. Locked down defensive systems (eg. Hitchcock, Tippett, etc.) can indeed insulate weaker goaltending and flatter goaltending numbers...if you have a robust collection of defensively strong players who buy in. But Calgary doesn't have that, nor do they have the coach for lockdown defence. Which is where it becomes really hard to play strong defence when your team doesn't have any reason to trust and rely on their goaltending to make the saves they're supposed to make. Confidence in a goaltender makes it a lot easier for a team to just buy in to the system and trust that it will be adequately backstopped. Don't think Calgary has had that.

 

[GodPucker]

Well. Smith has been excellent for the most part. Flames are bottom third in shots allowed and goals against. Maybe it's ccoaching.

 

[member 105785]

Well. Smith has been excellent for the most part. Flames are bottom third in shots allowed and goals against. Maybe it's ccoaching.

you're bumping a month old post, things will be different

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

At even strength, this year plus last year:

T.J.Brodie (27): 97gms, 18:37 (B qoc), 0.78p60, 50.4cf% (-0.9rel), 48.1xgf% (-2.2rel)
Hamonic (27): 62gms, 17:37 (B+ qoc), 0.67p60, 45.0cf% (-3.5rel), 43.9xgf% (-5.6rel)


This just doesn't really look like all that good a 2nd pair, tbh.

TJ Brodie last season was still a great CA60 suppressor. Also Brodie's QoT was probably one of the worst in the world, so take that in consideration. Hamonic is bad I agree, he was always overrated. Don't listen to Baxterman, but at the same time other than eye test, Giordano actually seems to be affected by partners more than Brodie does in 2014-2015, and 2015-2016. Brodie actually performed better without Giordano than Giordano without Brodie during those seasons, so it's not purely the Gio effect. Hamilton truly has a case of being carried by Giordano, but even then Hamilton is still impressive on his own, just not great.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Brodie made Brandon Sutter look as fast as McDavid last night on that SH goal.

Calgary D is quite overrated. They tried to build a 'big 4' somewhat following Nashville's model, but they have a #2 in Giordano, two #3 in Hamonic and Hamilton, and a #4 in Brodie. Not all that special. Compared to Preds having two #1's (Josi, Subban) and two #2's (Ekholm, Ellis)

Also, love SabresFan44 using a thread about the Flamers to take yet another shot at the Canucks. Pretty hilarious how much a Buffalo fan can hate the Canucks

Please just stop. Giordano has been a top 15 Dman in the league since 2013-2014. Brodie until last season and this season actually outperformed Giordano when they weren't playing with each other, and it seemed like Giordano relied more on Brodie than Brodie relied on him (It's not fair that Brodie had to carry Wideman and Engelland's corpse at times). The fact you consider Brodie a #4D, and Hamonic a #3D is just laughable. Giordano is a legit #1. Brodie this season is not playing like a #1, and Hamilton was never a #1 to begin with despite what some Flames fans will say.