Speculation: What does Kyle Dubas do with less than 7 million dollars?

[LilySmoov]

Presumably because teams had their protection lists already established at that point in time and were ready to lose the respective players like Pittsburgh had to with McCann...

The Leafs acquired him almost as a dangle to pluck Kerfoot off their roster so they could keep Pittsburghs tribute to Seattle, but of course protected a regular season + playoff healthy scratch 7th defenceman instead..

Hilariously poor sets of terrible decisions, of course we can all see how this was, except you who not only aren’t upset about the move but more at other people who can accurately judge that as a very bad move.

I like how you present "already established protection lists" as though it's some impenetrable obstacle, as though it wouldn't be as simple as literally just scratching out someone's name on a piece of paper and writing a new name. Especially when the player in question was such an obvious slam dunk bonafide top-6 forward. I can't believe literally every single other team didn't trade some crap for him when they had the chance. Again, curious.

And no, we acquired him to protect a RHD, of which we had only a couple we could rely on, not to dangle Kerfoot. And if keeping McCann over Kerfoot was so important to us, I'm sure we could've bribed Seattle, or at least attempted to. But there's no indication that was ever the case.

You seem to confuse accurate judgment with retroactively thumping your chest over essentially guessing lottery numbers. There was little to suggest McCann was gonna break out the way he did, and much to suggest he wouldn't.

 

[hamzarocks]

Dubas is in a pickle with the cap. They are probably going to need to restructure the team sooner than later. It's rather unfortunate, but perhaps something will happen shortly.

Whoa didn't know you still posted on HF.

Good to see an "old timer" on these boards.

Hopefully dubas works out a solution to the teams playoff failures this offseason

 

[hamzarocks]

I like how you present "already established protection lists" as though it's some impenetrable obstacle, as though it wouldn't be as simple as literally just scratching out someone's name on a piece of paper and writing a new name. Especially when the player in question was such an obvious slam dunk bonafide top-6 forward. I can't believe literally every single other team didn't trade some crap for him when they had the chance. Again, curious.

And no, we acquired him to protect a RHD, of which we had only a couple we could rely on, not to dangle Kerfoot. And if keeping McCann over Kerfoot was so important to us, I'm sure we could've bribed Seattle, or at least attempted to. But there's no indication that was ever the case.

You seem to confuse accurate judgment with retroactively thumping your chest over essentially guessing lottery numbers. There was little to suggest McCann was gonna break out the way he did, and much to suggest he wouldn't.

Break out to what a 100 pt player?

He was already on pace for 60 pts then had 50 in 74 this year

We choose a RHD who struggled without muzzin and was in the way of lilijgren who was NHL ready according to most on here.

Dubas made a brilliant move and turned it to shit by over valuing holl.

We had scored a combined 2 goals in 3 elimination games (game 7 vs Boston, game 5 vs CBJ, game 7 vs habs).

We got McCann on a cheap deal at a great price. Dubas lost sight of what the team needed to improve (and yes improvement is measured by playoff success and ability to contend for the cup which the leafs did not do this year) leading to the poor decision

It was a poor move that was highly questionable when made and deserves 100% criticism now rather we've seen the results and impact of keeping holl in 2021-2022

It's 1 move, which can be fixed if he pulls a good deal for Holl this offseason or a series of other good moves to help us progress and become a tangible contender but if your defending the McCann move then there is simply no reason to discuss Dubas performance as our GM as in your and other similar minded fans views there will have been no poor moves made by Dubas which led to us being the laughing stock of the league amongst playoff teams

 

[LilySmoov]

Break out to what a 100 pt player?

He was already on pace for 60 pts then had 50 in 74 this year

We choose a RHD who struggled without muzzin and was in the way of lilijgren who was NHL ready according to most on here.

Dubas made a brilliant move and turned it to shit by over valuing holl.

We had scored a combined 2 goals in 3 elimination games (game 7 vs Boston, game 5 vs CBJ, game 7 vs habs).

We got McCann on a cheap deal at a great price. Dubas lost sight of what the team needed to improve (and yes improvement is measured by playoff success and ability to contend for the cup which the leafs did not do this year) leading to the poor decision

It was a poor move that was highly questionable when made and deserves 100% criticism now rather we've seen the results and impact of keeping holl in 2021-2022

It's 1 move, which can be fixed if he pulls a good deal for Holl this offseason or a series of other good moves to help us progress and become a tangible contender but if your defending the McCann move then there is simply no reason to discuss Dubas performance as our GM as in your and other similar minded fans views there will have been no poor moves made by Dubas which led to us being the laughing stock of the league amongst playoff teams

His inflated and unsustainable underlying numbers (which is to say, oish% and individual sh% specifically), especially on the powerplay, were already pointed out. Numbers which, by the way, weren't even replicated this year. Think about that: he produced better this year with worse (not bad, mind you, just more sustainable) underlying numbers. No one could've reasonably predicted the season he had.

It's absolutely insane to suggest Dubas "lost sight of what the team needed" by not retaining McCann. You're seriously implying McCann would've accomplished what our top 4 forwards, all of whom are several orders of magnitude better than McCann, were unable to. And this is to say nothing of the fact that McCann is, at best, unproven in the playoffs, and at worst, absolutely abysmal. 3 assists and 0 goals in 12 games shouldn't be inspiring this unwarranted level of confidence you seem to have in him. The team did not and does not need another inconsistent middle 6er, which is all he was at the time.

And I'm not concerned with what HF posters thought of Lily's readiness. For what it's worth, I thought he was ready too, but forcing an inexperienced defenseman into a top-4 role so we could gamble on another scoring winger is still a terrible decision. If Lily got caved in and McCann wasn't the revelation he was in Seattle, we'd have been extra screwed. Sometimes the conservative move doesn't pay off, but "better safe than sorry" is a famous idiom for a reason.

 

[hamzarocks]

His inflated and unsustainable underlying numbers (which is to say, oish% and individual sh% specifically), especially on the powerplay, were already pointed out. Numbers which, by the way, weren't even replicated this year. Think about that: he produced better this year with worse (not bad, mind you, just more sustainable) underlying numbers. No one could've reasonably predicted the season he had.

It's absolutely insane to suggest Dubas "lost sight of what the team needed" by not retaining McCann. You're seriously implying McCann would've accomplished what our top 4 forwards, all of whom are several orders of magnitude better than McCann, were unable to. And this is to say nothing of the fact that McCann is, at best, unproven in the playoffs, and at worst, absolutely abysmal. 3 assists and 0 goals in 12 games shouldn't be inspiring this unwarranted level of confidence you seem to have in him. The team did not and does not need another inconsistent middle 6er, which is all he was at the time.

And I'm not concerned with what HF posters thought of Lily's readiness. For what it's worth, I thought he was ready too, but forcing an inexperienced defenseman into a top-4 role so we could gamble on another scoring winger is still a terrible decision. If Lily got caved in and McCann wasn't the revelation he was in Seattle, we'd have been extra screwed. Sometimes the conservative move doesn't pay off, but "better safe than sorry" is a famous idiom for a reason.

Being safe didn't improve the team. Being safe cost a year of the Matthews era.

McCann at 2.5M I think it was was a low risk and high reward move.

We could have made a move for a RHD at the deadline if Lily faltered and looked at a Chiariot, Manson, Braun, type player if we wanted an experienced RHD to give lilijgren further time

Holl would have had peak value if reports from certain posters on here are to be true. Should have been able to acquire late 1st and a player we could have exposed to keep both McCann and Kerfoot

McCann would have been an upgrade on Kase if we didn't acquire him and he'd be a lot healthier as well.

I don't care much for the move now since it's a fresh offseason. However I don't see how people can say this was a strong move at the time or now with hindsight

And I don't want dubas to make a similar move this offseason. If we aren't making a big roster trade with our core, then be aggressive and get better complimentary depth forwards who can produce with them. Dubas needs to be aggressive this offseason rather than conservative. The team is not going to get 115 pts again and will still be on a hughe battle to win round 1. We need to improve the team for the playoffs, get guys who can convert there chances and who are willing to play a heavy game with a desire to shoot the puck rather than hold for the perfect play (kerfoot, mikheyev, Engvall etc)

 

[LilySmoov]

Being safe didn't improve the team. Being safe cost a year of the Matthews era.

McCann at 2.5M I think it was was a low risk and high reward move.

We could have made a move for a RHD at the deadline if Lily faltered and looked at a Chiariot, Manson, Braun, type player if we wanted an experienced RHD to give lilijgren further time

Holl would have had peak value if reports from certain posters on here are to be true. Should have been able to acquire late 1st and a player we could have exposed to keep both McCann and Kerfoot

McCann would have been an upgrade on Kase if we didn't acquire him and he'd be a lot healthier as well.

I don't care much for the move now since it's a fresh offseason. However I don't see how people can say this was a strong move at the time or now with hindsight

And I don't want dubas to make a similar move this offseason. If we aren't making a big roster trade with our core, then be aggressive and get better complimentary depth forwards who can produce with them. Dubas needs to be aggressive this offseason rather than conservative. The team is not going to get 115 pts again and will still be on a hughe battle to win round 1. We need to improve the team for the playoffs, get guys who can convert there chances and who are willing to play a heavy game with a desire to shoot the puck rather than hold for the perfect play (kerfoot, mikheyev, Engvall etc)

No one's arguing it improved the team. The point is we took a calculated risk to keep the team intact and not potentially weaken it further if reasonably predictable things happened.

McCann at any price was not low risk for all the reasons already explained. There's nothing low risk about jettisoning a serviceable #4RHD and forcing a rookie to replace him so you can add a middle 6 winger to a team loaded with offense and lacking in right-side defense. How do you possibly think that's low risk?

And your proposed solution is to trade away additional assets to fill a position we already had filled before we let go of a #4RHD for another middle 6 winger? In the very likely scenario McCann doesn't flirt with 30 goals here, Dubas would've been rightfully crucified for such a stupid play. And I'd love to see a reliable source stating Holl could've gotten us a 1st and a roster player. I'm calling enormous amounts of bullshit on that.

It's extremely easy to say the move made sense at the time. Multiple reasons have been given multiple times, but those reasons keep getting ignored in favour of the mindless repetition of "but it didn't work out." Yeah sometimes moves don't work out. The circumstances between then and now have changed, but then, the move made perfect sense.

 

[Bomber0104]

Being safe didn't improve the team. Being safe cost a year of the Matthews era.

McCann at 2.5M I think it was was a low risk and high reward move.

We could have made a move for a RHD at the deadline if Lily faltered and looked at a Chiariot, Manson, Braun, type player if we wanted an experienced RHD to give lilijgren further time

Holl would have had peak value if reports from certain posters on here are to be true. Should have been able to acquire late 1st and a player we could have exposed to keep both McCann and Kerfoot

McCann would have been an upgrade on Kase if we didn't acquire him and he'd be a lot healthier as well.

I don't care much for the move now since it's a fresh offseason. However I don't see how people can say this was a strong move at the time or now with hindsight

And I don't want dubas to make a similar move this offseason. If we aren't making a big roster trade with our core, then be aggressive and get better complimentary depth forwards who can produce with them. Dubas needs to be aggressive this offseason rather than conservative. The team is not going to get 115 pts again and will still be on a hughe battle to win round 1. We need to improve the team for the playoffs, get guys who can convert there chances and who are willing to play a heavy game with a desire to shoot the puck rather than hold for the perfect play (kerfoot, mikheyev, Engvall etc)

Incredible this is being argued tooth and nail.

Major mistake at the expansion draft.

Very obvious to anyone who obviously isn’t trying to play-down every mistake Dubas makes.

Holl was valued over McCann and Kerfoot.

It‘d be sad if it wasn’t so funny how hilariously bad a choice that was.

Holl is a terrible player, looking to be jetissoned off the roster this very off-season, was perpetually scratched during the regular season and playoffs...

Yet we are being told he was the “correct” player to protect.

Laughable.

No other word for it.

 

[andora]

Just watched the overdrive clip with corrado feschuk and hayes

They did a nice job describing how safe everything around the leafs feels.. everything is safe and comfy because everyone keeps saying safe and comfortable things

Better safe than sorry too many times kind of beats down if there is a will there is a way

 

[LilySmoov]

Incredible this is being argued tooth and nail.

Major mistake at the expansion draft.

Very obvious to anyone who obviously isn’t trying to play-down every mistake Dubas makes.

Holl was valued over McCann and Kerfoot.

It‘d be sad if it wasn’t so funny how hilariously bad a choice that was.

Holl is a terrible player, looking to be jetissoned off the roster this very off-season, was perpetually scratched during the regular season and playoffs...

Yet we are being told he was the “correct” player to protect.

Laughable.

No other word for it.

"Incredible this is being argued" says the guy who can't actually argue it.

 

[rocketman588]

Through only half a season, with wildly inflated underlying metrics that he wouldn't repeat, and 1/3 of his points on the PP - an opportunity he wouldn't receive here. That's not an accurate representation of what he was "at the time" or what he would be for us. He had a career high of 35 points "at the time", for the record.

That's not true. He had 50 in 74, and only 32 of those were even strength - slightly more than Engvall. He was and is a middle-six forward, much like Kerfoot. The point that you seemed to miss was that he was acquired to protect the roster, which was successful.

He would likely do pretty much exactly what Kerfoot just did, only without the good defense and PK ability.

Of course it was, especially for the small price of Hallander and a 7th. We had an excellent team.

Of course it did. He's a very good defensemen, and there was no realistic internal or external replacement, especially "at the time".

Mcann had 29 %of his goals on the PP
AM had 26% while playing with significantly worse players

So by your logic your also saying that AMs 60 shouldn't matter because he put up similar PP numbers to mcann correct.

Keeping Holl was and will always be a stupid decision

He's the most replaceable player on the team which is why he was in the press box to start the playoffs

 

[Bomber0104]

"Incredible this is being argued" says the guy who can't actually argue it.

Oh I let the results do the talking.

You can go ahead and make all the excuses you want for poor decisions.

Excuses and constantly explaining away poor decisions don’t change a thing but continuous poor decisions can explain why the Leafs haven’t had a sniff of success.

 

[Bomber0104]

No one's arguing it improved the team. The point is we took a calculated risk to keep the team intact and not potentially weaken it further if reasonably predictable things happened.

McCann at any price was not low risk for all the reasons already explained. There's nothing low risk about jettisoning a serviceable #4RHD and forcing a rookie to replace him so you can add a middle 6 winger to a team loaded with offense and lacking in right-side defense. How do you possibly think that's low risk?

And your proposed solution is to trade away additional assets to fill a position we already had filled before we let go of a #4RHD for another middle 6 winger? In the very likely scenario McCann doesn't flirt with 30 goals here, Dubas would've been rightfully crucified for such a stupid play. And I'd love to see a reliable source stating Holl could've gotten us a 1st and a roster player. I'm calling enormous amounts of bullshit on that.

It's extremely easy to say the move made sense at the time. Multiple reasons have been given multiple times, but those reasons keep getting ignored in favour of the mindless repetition of "but it didn't work out." Yeah sometimes moves don't work out. The circumstances between then and now have changed, but then, the move made perfect sense.

These are all just a bunch of excuses.

McCann is and was a better player than Holl is and was .

Our GM couldn’t and didn’t see it and now here we are hoping sometime will take Holl’s contract off our hands, and McCann is now an excellent value centreman who is an asset, the very opposite of what Holl is.

Stop excusing poor talent evaluation and just call it for what it is/was.

 

[LeafEgo]

It's extremely easy to say the move made sense at the time. Multiple reasons have been given multiple times, but those reasons keep getting ignored in favour of the mindless repetition of "but it didn't work out." Yeah sometimes moves don't work out. The circumstances between then and now have changed, but then, the move made perfect sense.

This sounds like someone during their performance review who is about to get canned.

The whole 'you're using hindsight' argument is baffling. The results are in and they matter.

Eerily similar to we lost but we should have won.

 

[Antropovsky]

Sadly, you don't get it. They didn't trade for McCann to protect anyone. They were exposing a F, so they shrewdly traded a fringe prospect and a 7th to backfill for either the loss of Kerfoot, or the loss of McCann.....they did not lose anything additional. The cost to maintain the status quo was Hallander and a 7th.


I really don't think that people who live in glass houses should be throwing stones.

Hollander had pretty solid stats his first year in AHL. But I don't lose sleep over McCann...last thing we needed was another soft offensive player.

 

[LilySmoov]

Oh I let the results do the talking.

You can go ahead and make all the excuses you want for poor decisions.

Excuses and constantly explaining away poor decisions don’t change a thing but continuous poor decisions can explain why the Leafs haven’t had a sniff of success.

And "letting the results do the talking" is an embarrassingly simplistic way to make an assessment of anything. Letting the results do the talking is how guys like Clarkson and Leino get monster contracts. Letting the results do the talking is why mediocre teams don't rebuild because they fluked their way into the playoffs one year. Letting the results do the talking is why teams waste picks on guys like Hugh Jessiman or Robbie Schremp. There's no depth or nuance to your perspective, which you seem defiantly proud of. Understanding how results are achieved is essential because results in a vacuum don't actually tell you anything useful. Like I'm really impressed at your ability to point at numbers on a page and go "tHaT oNe iS BiGgEr ThAn tHe OtHeR oNe". Keep up the good work.

These are all just a bunch of excuses.

McCann is and was a better player than Holl is and was .

Our GM couldn’t and didn’t see it and now here we are hoping sometime will take Holl’s contract off our hands, and McCann is now an excellent value centreman who is an asset, the very opposite of what Holl is.

Stop excusing poor talent evaluation and just call it for what it is/was.

McCann was a mediocre middle 6 winger who exploded. Holl is a mediocre defenseman, who filled a positional need at the time, who stagnated. Much like how you confuse accurate judgment with guessing lottery numbers, you also confuse talent evaluation with being able to see the future.

 

[Bomber0104]

And "letting the results do the talking" is an embarrassingly simplistic way to make an assessment of anything. Letting the results do the talking is how guys like Clarkson and Leino get monster contracts. Letting the results do the talking is why mediocre teams don't rebuild because they fluked their way into the playoffs one year. Letting the results do the talking is why teams waste picks on guys like Hugh Jessiman or Robbie Schremp. There's no depth or nuance to your perspective, which you seem defiantly proud of. Understanding how results are achieved is essential because results in a vacuum don't actually tell you anything useful. Like I'm really impressed at your ability to point at numbers on a page and go "tHaT oNe iS BiGgEr ThAn tHe OtHeR oNe". Keep up the good work.


McCann was a mediocre middle 6 winger who exploded. Holl is a mediocre defenseman, who filled a positional need at the time, who stagnated. Much like how you confuse accurate judgment with guessing lottery numbers, you also confuse talent evaluation with being able to see the future.

So after all the litany of excuses / non-sequiters / red-herrings are said and done...

What you're suggesting here is the healthy scratch defenceman who the Leafs are now looking to jettison off the roster is and was the better player to protect vs the excellent-value all-situations centre because...

....?

Still waiting for it.

Any more excuses?

Last I checked, McCann was never press-boxed or openly torn apart in the media this season? Could be wrong and I know that’s fact/result based..hopefully not too “simplistic”

A bad decision is a bad decision is a bad decsion.

Once again it's not me that's on the stand here. The GM of the Leafs is. I'm just the one here pointing what an awful decision he made.

One player was and is worth something much more now and for the future (McCann) , the other (Holl) is not.

Pointing this out is just a fact but I guess it's hard to accept.

The job of the GM is to determine which players are valued accordingly, and unfortunately ours made yet another brutal miscalculation.

It was one of many miscalculations that resulted in yet another 1st round exit for Toronto.

Oh, there I go using results again. How “simplistic”

Sorry, the GM is terrible and that's just one example of terrible off-season moves.

Can only imagine what your thoughts are on the Mrazek signing. Surely there’s a nuanced way to excuse that one away too?

 

[LilySmoov]

So after all the litany of excuses / non-sequiters / red-herrings are said and done..

What you're suggesting here is the healthy scratch defenceman who the Leafs are now looking to jettison off the roster is and was the better player to protect vs the excellent-value all-situations centre because...

....?

This has been explained repeatedly. How about you go back and read any of the several posts doing so, try addressing the points directly, and then maybe you'll have successfully demonstrated yourself capable of a grown-up conversation. Because your posts are honest-to-god embarrassing.

And I'd love for you to point out a single non-sequitur or red herring. Do you even know what those are?

Last I checked, McCann was never press-boxed or openly torn apart in the media this season? Could be wrong and I know that’s fact/result based..hopefully not too “simplistic”

The players they are now is irrelevant because we're discussing the players they were at the time of the transaction. Can we go ahead and add the linear flow of time to the list of things you don't understand?

A bad decision is a bad decision is a bad decsion.

And it's important to know why a decision was made when assessing it in full. This is another thing you're incapable of understanding.

One player was and is worth something much more now and for the future (McCann) , the other (Holl) is not.

Pointing this out is just a fact but I guess it's hard to accept.

It's not hard to accept that McCann is worth more now, not a single person has disputed that. Which you would know if you were able to follow a conversation.

The job of the GM is to determine which players are valued accordingly, and unfortunately ours made yet another brutal miscalculation.

Every single GM in the league made this exact same "miscalculation". Which is yet another in a long line of points you consistently fail to directly address. The best I got was some hilarious nonsense about "established protection lists" which after being refuted, you stopped responding.

It was one of many miscalculations that resulted in yet another 1st round exit for Toronto.

Oh, there I go using results again. How “simplistic”

Sorry, the GM is terrible and that's just one example of terrible off-season moves.

Can only imagine what your thoughts are on the Mrazek signing. Surely there’s a nuanced way to excuse that one away too?

Mrazek signing was bad. We needed insurance in case Campbell faltered, but I'd be hard-pressed to believe Mrazek at 3/3.8 was our best option. See you can be nuanced and critical simultaneously, which you also don't understand.

 

[Racer88]

I keep hearing that there is no way Dubas could predict or know that this player or that player would score this or get hurt or be awesome or be crappy Etc etc etc……..isnt it his job to know or predict these things. He has access to all the data and priority information
Can anyone name a player that’s he has chosen that was not an obvious lock that has turned out to be a real steal?

 

[BertCorbeau]

Thread has gone off topic and we have a trade thread anyway.