What do the Flames need most?

[OvermanKingGainer]

I still stand by that. McKinnon, Matthews and Eichel have done enough in the last 2 years to create separation but other than that there is little difference between Mony and the rest. The talent separation of a 4th line and the first line has never been narrower.

Come the playoffs and the game slows down allowing players like Looch to become major factors.

I think you need to watch more hockey if you can say that with a straight face.

Truly.

Go watch Brayden Point, Sean Couturier, Anze Kopitar, Jonathan Toews, Ryan O'Rielly, Nazem Kadri, Aleksander Barkov, Mikael Backlund, Patrice Bergeron, Tyler Seguin, Evgeni Kuznetsov, Evgeni Malkin, Sebastian Aho, Leon Draisaitl, Sam Bennett, Anthony Cirelli, Bo Horvat, Pierre Luc Dubois, Matthew Barzal, Derek Ryan, etc etc.

Go observe what they bring, every shift of every game. In the neutral zone. In the defensive zone. In the offensive zone.

There is a massive difference between that, and Sean Monahan, even if the goals or assists blind you from the gap. That's not even an exhaustive list of centers who bring much more to the table than Sean Monahan.

And here comes the ad hominem rebuttal in three, two, one...

 

[SKRusty]

I think you need to watch more hockey if you can say that with a straight face.

Truly.

Go watch Brayden Point, Sean Couturier, Anze Kopitar, Jonathan Toews, Ryan O'Rielly, Nazem Kadri, Aleksander Barkov, Mikael Backlund, Patrice Bergeron, Tyler Seguin, Evgeni Kuznetsov, Evgeni Malkin, Sebastian Aho, Leon Draisaitl, Sam Bennett, Anthony Cirelli, Bo Horvat, Pierre Luc Dubois, Matthew Barzal, Derek Ryan, etc etc.

Go observe what they bring, every shift of every game. In the neutral zone. In the defensive zone. In the offensive zone.

There is a massive difference between that, and Sean Monahan, even if the goals or assists blind you from the gap. That's not even an exhaustive list of centers who bring much more to the table than Sean Monahan.

And here comes the ad hominem rebuttal in three, two, one...

Get out of here with that arrogant pompous BS. You are inferring Derek Ryan (career high -38 points) or Sam Bennett with a (career high - 36 points) in the regular season are in any ballpark with a first line center?

You're questioning my assessment of players yet you are comparing 30-40 pt players with the leagues elite?

In the last 5 years Sean ranks 15th in centers with 377 points. When you consider the supporting cast for those above him there is nothing second rate about Sean's pedigree.

Goals 7th

GWG First-- The best in the NHL but yeah that's a bs stat

This stats say there is no other player that means more to his team. It actually shows Sean out on that island by himself.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

This stats say there is no other player that means more to his team. It actually shows Sean out on that island by himself.
View attachment 361486

That is not at all what that stat says lol.

 

[Body Checker]

What we need most is continue to transition to a team that plays with pace and physicality. See what happens rest of post season but likely time to move on from Johnny for 20-21 season.

 

[SKRusty]

That is not at all what that stat says lol.

Really... let's put it in context out of 480 games calgary has won 248 of which 38 are on Monahan GWG. That is over 15.3% of Calgary's wins are on Sean's shot.
Ovi the leader overall has 41 in 294 Wins for just a little under 14%
Marchand has 41 in 270 wins which is 15.2%

Now who else on that list of game winning goals is not a star? NO other player in the NHL wins as many games for their team.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Oh boy.

Game-winning goal is the most completely arbitrary statistic in all of sports.

Yesterday, Backlund's first period goal was the gamewinning goal. Why? Because Talbot got a shutout. If Talbot does not get a shutout, then Backlund's shorty is not the gamewinning goal. Backlund's goal was important, but it was not any MORE important than Brodie's goal last night. Both were crucial. And had Cam Talbot allowed two goals, then these two goals would still not have been any less important than an ostensible third goal. Why? Because a team's goaltending should not determine the importance of their goal scoring.

Today, the so-called gamewinning goal in the Avalanche-Coyotes game was literally an empty-netter scored from the red line. Was that important? sure. Was that particularly clutch or necessary? Probably not, considering the Coyotes scored two empty-netters and played with a lead for the majority of their game.

It's further flawed in that 3-on-3 overtime is skewed towards players who get icetime on 3-on-3 overtime. Monahan has been blessed to play with some outstanding 3-on-3 players - Mark Giordano, TJ Brodie, Johnny Gaudreau. That should not take away from his goals, but we've seen plenty of other players score 3-on-3 goals for us. I doubt they've gotten the same proportion of 3-on-3 icetime.

Ultimately the concept of clutchness simply cannot be quantified by a statistic as random and final-score dependant as "game winning goal".

When I joke around about Fake GWGs here on CFHF, it's because the statistic is absolutely not worth anyone's time.

There are certainly clutch game winners that matter. Playoff overtime winners like Bo Horvat's 5-hole snipe on Binnington yesterday, or Brayden Point's goal to end that fifth overtime this week. These are important because we're talking about sudden death 5-on-5 overtime. They are not equal to every other regular season junk game winning goal. Or goals in the last three or four minutes of regulation in a tie game, like Oleksiak's winner over us two nights ago. These are clutch because they almost surely put a dagger in the other team's ability to win a game. These are actual game winning goals. They're not "goals that ended up being the game winner two periods later".

To my knowledge, the only active Flames player to score a playoff game winning goal for the Flames is Mikael Backlund. It was a more valuable goal than any of the 40 or whatever you posted so-called GWGs Sean Monahan has scored in his entire career.

Imagine if basketball valued "game-winners" in 110-70 blowouts the way hockey does.

As for the rest of your argument - it really proves you don't watch other teams. Box score statistics in hockey mean very little. They're influenced too strongly by a coach-defined role, linemate quality, and luck. Of course it takes skill to produce - but not producing does not imply a lack of skill. More importantly - skill alone is insufficient. The nature of that skill is crucial and the nature of Sean Monahan's skillset is not conducive to winning against top-end teams (eg the playoffs). Winning a 2-1 game is more valuable than losing a 3-4 game. Of course production is important, hence why top producers like Johnny Gaudreau, Artemi Panarin, and Patrick Kane are vital to their teams, but secondary producers like Sean Monahan, Ryan Strome and Dylan Strome are simply beneficiaries.

 

[SKRusty]

Oh boy.

Game-winning goal is the most completely arbitrary statistic in all of sports.

Look at that list and tell me who is not a star?

One game may be arbitrary but when it is a consistent pattern it isn't. So your contention is Ovi (41), Pasternak (30), Bergeron(31) and Marchand(41) are not stars? This is nothing more than you trying to justify obscure stats to place Bennett in with the NHL Elite. GWG appears to be one of the defining lists identifying all the premiere stars. It even shows the importance of a player often overlooked ... Cam Atkinson.

This is just another attempt to obfuscate reality.

The only stat that matters is in hockey is wins and no single player in the NHL delivers a higher percentage towards wins than Sean Monahan. Wins dictate getting into the playoffs and 16 wins (19 wins this year) will get you a Stanley Cup.

 

[Yotes4Cup]

That is not at all what that stat says lol.

sean monahan is one of the best triggermen in the show.

 

[Mazatt]

Watch Sean Monahan attempt to stick handle or do a tomahawk turn and you'll understand why he isn't up there with Point and them, or even Barkov.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Look at that list and tell me who is not a star?

Sean Monahan
Brayden Schenn
Joe Pavelski
Jeff Carter
Steven Stamkos
Eric Staal
Patrick Marleau

None of these are centers who would be the best center on a legitimate championship contender. Maybe Stamkos, if he could score 60 goals again, but even then he's not the player he used to be back then. And no, Staal wasn't a better centre than Rod Brind'Amour in 06. That was just the year powerplays were inflated beyond belief and Staal benefitted immensely.

One game may be arbitrary but when it is a consistent pattern it isn't.

It's a consistent pattern for two reasons:

1) Because volume goal scorers will inevitably see some of their goals as so-called "GWG"s. That's how probability works. No one is denying that Monahan is a volume goal scorer. But his volume goal scoring, much like Stamkos and Carter on that list, is insufficient relative to his lack of a complete game. Just as Carter was at his best on Mike Richards' wing and Stamkos at his best (in terms of a deep playoff run) on Filpulla's wing, these are not ideal centremen, never mind number one centers.

2) Because Monahan's "sneak into open areas" style is more effective against defensively poor teams - teams that are easier to win against. It stands to reason that he would have more goals against bottom feeders - and thus more "GWG".

So your contention is Ovi (41), Pasternak (30), Bergeron(31) and Marchand(41) are not stars?

My contention is that three of those guys are wingers, and the other of those guys has four Selke trophies to add to four more top three finishes in Selke voting. So a metric that cannot differentiate wingers from centres is of no value in evaluating centres.

This is nothing more than you trying to justify obscure stats to place Bennett in with the NHL Elite.

Ah yes, obscure stats like watching the game.

The only stat that matters is in hockey is wins and no single player in the NHL delivers a higher percentage towards wins than Sean Monahan. Wins dictate getting into the playoffs and 16 wins (19 wins this year) will get you a Stanley Cup.

Um, the Flames have "won" nothing with Monahan as their number one center. They won one playoff series back in 2015 where Hartley coached circles around Desjardins, Brodie channelled his inner Scott Neidermayer, and Hiller stood on his head while Monahan's line was invisible until the final game. They've missed the playoffs in Monahan's first year, his third year, and his fifth year. They barely squeaked into the playoffs in Monahan's second year, his fourth year, and his seventh year. They finished tops in the conference once, when Monahan had as many "game winning goals" as NHL Superstar Garnet Hathaway, and then proceeded to lose in the first round. Monahan's never in his entire career been the most valuable center in a playoff series, and never will be. Heck, his current coach even seems to have figured out that he's better off using Monahan as a winger.

 

[SKRusty]

Um, the Flames have "won" nothing with Monahan as their number one center.

Yeah they said the same thing about Ovi. Yzerman. Sakic.

Sam Bennett has turned into a wonderful 3rd line center I am very happy with his game. Bennett has never had the ability to finish consistently at the NHL level. The playoffs work well for him because the game slows down a little. 5 coaches now and not 1 identify Sam as anything more than he is. No matter how much you bang those drums it don't make it true. And yes I trust 5 coaches and a GM more than you.

The problem on the first line in the playoffs is Gaudreau. He brings absolutely nothing to the table for the playoffs and to this point isn't willing to do what is needed for success.

I used to be a solo reed on that front but after numerous failed playoffs analysts and fans are seeing the same issues. I just hope that when a move is made Calgary does well. History will eventually settle this debate once and for all.

And again you still haven't answered who is on that list that is not a star.

 

[Mazatt]

Yeah they said the same thing about Ovi. Yzerman. Sakic.

Except Ovi consistently got to the second round, and even then he wasn't the leading scorer on his own team. They won off of Holtby going off, and Kuztensov having an insane 32 points in the playoff run, as well as Kempny and others playing well, good depth, and contributions throughout the lineup. Even when Ovi succeeded he wasn't the 'star' so to speak, he got the conn smythe as a storyline award, not as an award for his play.

 

[SKRusty]

Even when Ovi succeeded he wasn't the 'star' so to speak, he got the conn smythe as a storyline award, not as an award for his play.

WOW. So his 27 points were not a factor? His leadership was not a factor? Taking the hardest shifts against the hardest lines weren't a factor so Kuznetsov had easier match-ups?

The Hockey Writers voted on the award and they are all clueless? In my opinion Holtby should have got it but I could see how Ovi was chosen. No Stanley Cup team is just 1 players performance. 2004 doesn't happen without Gelinas, Commodore and Montador. 3 middling players.

Ovi had 12 years of failures with some insanely talented line-ups. In 2017-18 Washington was expected to lose out early but it was Ovi's leadership that took a rag-tag line-up when compared to previous line-ups to the cup.

We have had Sean for 6 seasons.. The first 3 where with an incomplete line-up. Mony, Backs, Chucky, and our excellent young d-men will get us there.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Really... let's put it in context out of 480 games calgary has won 248 of which 38 are on Monahan GWG. That is over 15.3% of Calgary's wins are on Sean's shot.
Ovi the leader overall has 41 in 294 Wins for just a little under 14%
Marchand has 41 in 270 wins which is 15.2%

Now who else on that list of game winning goals is not a star? NO other player in the NHL wins as many games for their team.

Scoring GWG does not equate to winning games for your team. I can't believe someone could actually seriously think that.

[mod]

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

If Gaudreau can get confident this team is going to be deadly. We finally have the depth where we don’t have to rely on him every night, but if he gets going (I saw some positive signs in the first and third last game) than I think he’s got the skill to push us over the top.

He needs to move his feet and retreat and pick up the puck in his own zone, he hasn’t been doing that enough lately. He has that special ability to break through a team already in the trap and still set up a controller offensive possession.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

If Gaudreau can get confident this team is going to be deadly. We finally have the depth where we don’t have to rely on him every night, but if he gets going (I saw some positive signs in the first and third last game) than I think he’s got the skill to push us over the top.

He needs to move his feet and retreat and pick up the puck in his own zone, he hasn’t been doing that enough lately. He has that special ability to break through a team already in the trap and still set up a controller offensive possession.

He seems to have bulked up (seems kinda funny to even type that) over the past couple years, I wonder if that has anything to do with his decrease in magic moments. I miss the stickhandling in the phonebooth plays.

 

[tyflames]

He seems to have bulked up (seems kinda funny to even type that) over the past couple years, I wonder if that has anything to do with his decrease in magic moments. I miss the stickhandling in the phonebooth plays.

I think it’s more a scared thing for him. I hate watching him in the playoffs. He’s like a deer in the headlights every time he has to go in the corner. You can’t score if you can’t get the puck in the offensive zone. The only time he’s dangerous is on the rush and he loses the puck at the blue line about 75 percent of the time it seems like.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Johnny’s problem right now is his head. He had a down season and is still in a funk, it happens. It’s happened to Ovechkin, it can happen to Johnny. It’s just unfortunate it’s still happening now.

 

[Corpus X]

Johnny needs the Care Bear Stare!

 

[Bounces R Way]

I would say a volume shooter somewhere in the top 6. Preferably right handed.

 

[HugginThePost]

WOW. So his 27 points were not a factor? His leadership was not a factor? Taking the hardest shifts against the hardest lines weren't a factor so Kuznetsov had easier match-ups?

The Hockey Writers voted on the award and they are all clueless? In my opinion Holtby should have got it but I could see how Ovi was chosen. No Stanley Cup team is just 1 players performance. 2004 doesn't happen without Gelinas, Commodore and Montador. 3 middling players.

Ovi had 12 years of failures with some insanely talented line-ups. In 2017-18 Washington was expected to lose out early but it was Ovi's leadership that took a rag-tag line-up when compared to previous line-ups to the cup.

We have had Sean for 6 seasons.. The first 3 where with an incomplete line-up. Mony, Backs, Chucky, and our excellent young d-men will get us there.

If you think Sean is the man to lead these Flames to the promised land, well, I have no idea what to tell you.

You say the only problem with the first line is Johnny, I'd say there is some truth to that, but for a different reason then you are claiming. It's true, Johnny fades in the playoffs when things get more physical. Johnny drives the play on that line, saying otherwise is just being obtuse. The big issue with the first line is that no one steps up to make up for Johnny getting molested.

Sean is a player that needs to be in front of the net cleaning up the dishes that he gets from his linemates. He is a trigger man. He is certainly not a setup man. He's incredibly soft and is not willing to get onto the dirty areas, and neither is Johnny, which is a massive problem.

This is a mental issue and not a physical one. Christ, look at Yamamoto, dude is smaller than Johnny and he is a forechecking and puck retrieval God.

Long story short, Sean will never be the go-to guy that gets you to a Cup.

My two words that the Flames need...........

"New Core"

 

[Fig]

Johnny needs the Care Bear Stare!

Hart transplant?

Taylor Hall to Calgary per Corpus.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I think it’s more a scared thing for him. I hate watching him in the playoffs. He’s like a deer in the headlights every time he has to go in the corner. You can’t score if you can’t get the puck in the offensive zone. The only time he’s dangerous is on the rush and he loses the puck at the blue line about 75 percent of the time it seems like.

Its funny, he was actually taking hits to make plays for the first 2-3 games vs Winnipeg, not really shying away at all. But since then you can actively see him avoiding contact. He's taken 10 hits so far through the playoffs, 9 of which came in the first 3 games vs Winnipeg. He then went 4 consecutive games without taking a hit:

Gaudreau hits taken by game:
gm1 - 4
gm2 - 3
gm3 - 2
gm4 - 0
gm5 - 0
gm6 - 0
gm7 - 0
gm8 - 1

Last game was the first hit he's taken since game 3 vs Winnipeg, but he also started to look more confident again. I suspect he was injured on one of those hits vs the Jets and has been playing through a hurt wrist or shoulder, which would explain his desire to avoid contact. Hopefully his play last game is a sign that it's started to mend.

 

[GumbyCan2]

Really... let's put it in context out of 480 games calgary has won 248 of which 38 are on Monahan GWG. That is over 15.3% of Calgary's wins are on Sean's shot.
Ovi the leader overall has 41 in 294 Wins for just a little under 14%
Marchand has 41 in 270 wins which is 15.2%

Now who else on that list of game winning goals is not a star? NO other player in the NHL wins as many games for their team.

And very few other C's bring as much importance to their team offensively, without ever winning more consistently in the playoffs. Between Money & Johnny, they are a Playoff Bust guarantee!7
Time to "shake it up" and split these guys, or place a new guy in between, at Center, and move Money to the right wing. Off-wing sniping could be the norm with a new Center there, between these 2.

 

[GumbyCan2]

He seems to have bulked up (seems kinda funny to even type that) over the past couple years, I wonder if that has anything to do with his decrease in magic moments. I miss the stickhandling in the phonebooth plays.

I'm not sure if this is realistic, to affect him negatively now, but I recall a few years ago in the playoffs, maybe jyst 2 years ago?, whereby he was continually slashed on the wrists, hands and was visibly in pain and unable to handle his stick confidently to dangle the puck. When he took a jolting huit on one shoulder. Ever since then, I see him shying away from pressure more often than not, especially come big games and playoffs. Mental block has set in? Not sure but I was thinking back to that particular playoffs. Sorry I don't remember exact year, opposition team and a particular player whacking him a couple times with no penalties, no repurcussions. Then it continued even with penalty calls. By that time, he was out of action with a broken thumb or? Hand bone? He has never fully broken out with his top-A puck dazzling/ opponent-dissing ways for any sustained stretch. He may never get over this fully, and this, is partially "damaged-goods" to what could be. Maybe time to offer him for best trade package that can help our roster move forward.?
I am still intrigued by: 1) signing Taylor Hall, if he accepts and the cost is doable; and 2) moving Money to his off-wing, with a new trial Center and a playmaker othe winger.
? Maybe THall-DDube-SMoney could be a formidable line. I know it is a bit of a stretch to expect Dube to perform top-line Center yet, as he has had so limited real exposure playing time regularly as a Center.
Or try Benny there? Or Lindy? Or Backs? Or, bring in a new one, somehow/ somewhere.