News Article: What are the Leafs even doing at the 3C Position?

[Ciao]

Since we're a few days off before our next game I decided to take a look at the 3rd line centre position in the organization and what our options are as we move forward in hopes of competing for a Stanley Cup.

HawkeyIntangibles: What are the Leafs doing at the 3C Position?

Appreciate feedback, shares, re-tweets, followers etc etc

This is not a news article. It's just just blog.

 

[Sypher04]

Ok fair enough. As far as him not leaving whatever on table, how do you know that? How much did Stamkos leave on table by staying in TB, I'd say it was absolutely "2 or 3 4 million" so if he did it, how can you be sure Tavares won't? If anything, Stamkos has set a precedent that supports the possibility of a star player signing for less than market value if that's what it takes to play where he wants to play. Stamkos wanted to stay in TB, what if Tavares wants to play here? He's a good old GTA boy, I have a feeling that if he wants to play here, the money will be worked out. Playing for the Leafs, if that's his dream then you just can't put a price on that. Oops, we're discussing it now, how did that happen.

How much of a price cut would we need - I have no idea. I think I'll wait until spring before thinking about this in more detail. But as I said, if he wants to come here I think he'll take a discount, partly because he'll want to win the cup here and taking a discount will help.

Regarding Stamkos... It really doesn't feel like apples to apples to me. Stamkos could have left Tampa to seek a big contract with Toronto or whatever team but ultimately he wouldn't have really made any more money. Given that I do believe he genuinely likes Tampa, if you're gonna make the same money per year anyway in Tampa vs Toronto, why not stay in Tampa at the lower cap hit, extra year and on a better team? The Leafs would have had to pay Stamkos over 10M for him to make the same amount he's taking home now on just 8.5M. I just don't think the logic quite works the other way around. If we want to people to come, we'll need to pay up. Ths is of course, all my opinion, but I think the logic is reasonable.

FWIW, I hope you're right. That if he's interested in coming here, we'd make it work and he'd leave money on the table to accommodate our future. I'd love to see Tavares in a Leafs uniform and ideally not when he's 36+

 

[ToneDog]

Look at the impact the addition of Turris has had on the Preds. They now have two solid scoring lines, similar to the Isles. Anybody think our top 2 lines match up to them ?

Forsberg 28
Arvidsson 19
RyJo 17
Fiala 18
Smith 17
Turris 12 (13 games)

JT 31
Bailey 31
Lee 28
Barzal 26
Eberle 20
Ladd 13

 

[Gary Nylund]

Regarding Stamkos... It really doesn't feel like apples to apples to me. Stamkos could have left Tampa to seek a big contract with Toronto or whatever team but ultimately he wouldn't have really made any more money. Given that I do believe he genuinely likes Tampa, if you're gonna make the same money per year anyway in Tampa vs Toronto, why not stay in Tampa at the lower cap hit, extra year and on a better team? The Leafs would have had to pay Stamkos over 10M for him to make the same amount he's taking home now on just 8.5M. I just don't think the logic quite works the other way around. If we want to people to come, we'll need to pay up. Ths is of course, all my opinion, but I think the logic is reasonable.

FWIW, I hope you're right. That if he's interested in coming here, we'd make it work and he'd leave money on the table to accommodate our future. I'd love to see Tavares in a Leafs uniform and ideally not when he's 36+

OK I'd forgotten about that. Still, he may have been offered 12m by some other team and in the end, he was almost a UFA anyway so the fact that he didn't even wait to see what the other offers would have been suggests that money wasn't his primary concern.

As far as me being right goes, just to be clear, I'm nor predicting that he wants to play here, just that if he does, he won't take us to the cleaners. And yes that would be super cool, Kadri and Rielly have already taken team friendly deals, if Tavares does so too it could be the start of a veritable avalanche of core players signing for a bit under market value enabling us to build a dynasty!

If you're gonna dream dream big right?

 

[WTFMAN99]

This is not a news article. It's just just blog.

"Blog" wasn't an option. Does it reallllly bother you that much about the pre-fix?

 

[Sypher04]

OK I'd forgotten about that. Still, he may have been offered 12m by some other team and in the end, he was almost a UFA anyway so the fact that he didn't even wait to see what the other offers would have been suggests that money wasn't his primary concern.

As far as me being right goes, just to be clear, I'm nor predicting that he wants to play here, just that if he does, he won't take us to the cleaners. And yes that would be super cool, Kadri and Rielly have already taken team friendly deals, if Tavares does so too it could be the start of a veritable avalanche of core players signing for a bit under market value enabling us to build a dynasty!

If you're gonna dream dream big right?

He more or less did make it to UFA though. I don't know how many teams he met with, but he definitely had a meeting with the Maple Leafs. Reports after the meeting said we offered to make him the highest paid player in the league with a 7 year, $73.5 million contract offer. I think he probably recognized that even if someone came up another million, he wouldn't net much more than what he's making in Tampa. I don't think it says it wasn't about money, but he may have left a tiny bit on the table in Tampa, kinda. I mean, no one else could offer him that 8th year either. So either way, his contract with Tampa is more lucrative.

I mean there was always a chance someone like Buffalo could have come out of nowhere and tred to kickstart their franchise by signing Stamkos 12M or something... Confident the teams that would've done that though, wouldn't have been attractive hockey options. There's a give and take between money and hockey for sure.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Look at the impact the addition of Turris has had on the Preds. They now have two solid scoring lines, similar to the Isles. Anybody think our top 2 lines match up to them ?

Forsberg 28
Arvidsson 19
RyJo 17
Fiala 18
Smith 17
Turris 12 (13 games)

JT 31
Bailey 31
Lee 28
Barzal 26
Eberle 20
Ladd 13

Probably if we reconfigured our lines.

 

[Sypher04]

Probably if we reconfigured our lines.

Regarding Nashville, pretty much no doubt if we did. I mean, as it stands right now if you take our top 6 forwards they stack up pretty well.

Matthews 26
Kadri 23
JVR 20
Nylander 20
Marleau 17
Marner 16

Also funny enough, 2 centers, and 4 guys predominantly used as wingers (2 LW/2 RW)

More of a mismatch with Isles right now than Preds. But Also hard to say what the effect of playing Matthews with two skilled offensive players at the same time would be on some of the point totals.

The Isles have 4 players with 26+ points right now.

 

[ToneDog]

Regarding Nashville, pretty much no doubt if we did. I mean, as it stands right now if you take our top 6 forwards they stack up pretty well.

Matthews 26
Kadri 23
JVR 20
Nylander 20
Marleau 17
Marner 16

Also funny enough, 2 centers, and 4 guys predominantly used as wingers (2 LW/2 RW)

More of a mismatch with Isles right now than Preds. But Also hard to say what the effect of playing Matthews with two skilled offensive players at the same time would be on some of the point totals.

The Isles have 4 players with 26+ points right now.

Our top 6 point getters are pretty close. Our advantage is our depth up front. We can't touch the Preds D. Andy is close to Rinne. Isles weak in goal.

 

[A4T1L6]

This is not a news article. It's just just blog.

lmao

 

[WTFMAN99]

Regarding Nashville, pretty much no doubt if we did. I mean, as it stands right now if you take our top 6 forwards they stack up pretty well.

Matthews 26
Kadri 23
JVR 20
Nylander 20
Marleau 17
Marner 16

Also funny enough, 2 centers, and 4 guys predominantly used as wingers (2 LW/2 RW)

More of a mismatch with Isles right now than Preds. But Also hard to say what the effect of playing Matthews with two skilled offensive players at the same time would be on some of the point totals.

The Isles have 4 players with 26+ points right now.

Our top 6 point getters are pretty close. Our advantage is our depth up front. We can't touch the Preds D. Andy is close to Rinne. Isles weak in goal.

If we rolled

JVR-Matthews-Marner
Hyman-Kadri-Brown
Marleau-Bozak-Nylander
Martin-Moore-Komarov

We stack okay up front, in fact our depth wins out I think

Defense we can't touch Nashville. I like our goaltending more than both Nashville and NYI.

FWD: TOR (barely, or I can accept a 3-way draw)
DEF: NSH hands down
G: TOR. I think Andersen gets a lot harder workload then Rinne sees for sure, and by default I like him more than the NYI options which have cost the team at times this year.

 

[BlueBaron]

Regarding Stamkos... It really doesn't feel like apples to apples to me. Stamkos could have left Tampa to seek a big contract with Toronto or whatever team but ultimately he wouldn't have really made any more money. Given that I do believe he genuinely likes Tampa, if you're gonna make the same money per year anyway in Tampa vs Toronto, why not stay in Tampa at the lower cap hit, extra year and on a better team? The Leafs would have had to pay Stamkos over 10M for him to make the same amount he's taking home now on just 8.5M. I just don't think the logic quite works the other way around. If we want to people to come, we'll need to pay up. Ths is of course, all my opinion, but I think the logic is reasonable.

FWIW, I hope you're right. That if he's interested in coming here, we'd make it work and he'd leave money on the table to accommodate our future. I'd love to see Tavares in a Leafs uniform and ideally not when he's 36+

You are working under a lot of false assumptions. Firstly the income tax rate only applies to half his income, home games. So we are talking on the tax on 4.2 mil vs 5.

Next you ignore or probably do not know about the many options available for tax avoidance which are available to the wealthy, in all likelihood he is being taxed on a couple million assuming he has a good financial adviser. Also the cost of living in Canada is lower because of the Dollar.

Lastly and most obviously is the endorsement opportunities here vs Tampa. Back in the olden days when Clark was traded for Mats he noted the trade cost him 6 mil a year in endorsements and that was back then splitting the lion share with Gilmour. So do not kid yourself, Stamkos really did leave money on the table to stay in Tampa. I know it feels less like rejection when you look at it your way but I am afraid it is just not reality.

Now I do not have a lot of great insights into Tavares's personality so I cannot speculate about how important it is for him to be "The Man" which he would not be here. How does he feel about being in a fish bowl? How big a Leaf fan is he really etc? How badly does he want a Cup? Only he and his inner circle know for sure. He has a lot of options obviously with the Rangers and Habs jumping out at you. Both are comparable markets but the teams are not as good so what matters more? Winning or being the man? I guess time will tell.

NHLers, Canadians in particular are a loyal lot so odds are at least decent he stays on the Isle. Canadian players are also less prone to wanting to be famous and unable to live without constant recognition. That is why I always laugh when they talk about Matthews bolting to Arizona. Matthews wants to be the top star in the league. No way is he bolting the Hockey Mecca to be on a team that doesn't matter. Taveres might be a different story though.

 

[Menzinger]

I think the fact that a star player hasn’t left their home drafted team for free agent since Parise and Suter signed with the Wild all the way back in 2012 is pretty indicative of the chance that JT leaves the Islander (ie not very likely).

 

[IPS]

Matthews
Tavares
Kadri

Looks real solid to me.

Aren't you always going on about how the Leafs need to upgrade their D? (Specifically trading away Marner to help it)

How do you expect us to improve it if we have Tavares signed for an insane cap hit?

 

[jaric1862]

I think we sign Thornton to a 1-2 year deal and let him be the stop-gap until someone in our system can replace him. Would love a offensively sheltered Kapanen-Thornton-Nylander line, really think that would flourish (Thornton being the passer and Nylander being the shooter). Then put Matthews-Marner together

 

[WTFMAN99]

You are working under a lot of false assumptions. Firstly the income tax rate only applies to half his income, home games. So we are talking on the tax on 4.2 mil vs 5.

Next you ignore or probably do not know about the many options available for tax avoidance which are available to the wealthy, in all likelihood he is being taxed on a couple million assuming he has a good financial adviser. Also the cost of living in Canada is lower because of the Dollar.

Lastly and most obviously is the endorsement opportunities here vs Tampa. Back in the olden days when Clark was traded for Mats he noted the trade cost him 6 mil a year in endorsements and that was back then splitting the lion share with Gilmour. So do not kid yourself, Stamkos really did leave money on the table to stay in Tampa. I know it feels less like rejection when you look at it your way but I am afraid it is just not reality.

Now I do not have a lot of great insights into Tavares's personality so I cannot speculate about how important it is for him to be "The Man" which he would not be here. How does he feel about being in a fish bowl? How big a Leaf fan is he really etc? How badly does he want a Cup? Only he and his inner circle know for sure. He has a lot of options obviously with the Rangers and Habs jumping out at you. Both are comparable markets but the teams are not as good so what matters more? Winning or being the man? I guess time will tell.

NHLers, Canadians in particular are a loyal lot so odds are at least decent he stays on the Isle. Canadian players are also less prone to wanting to be famous and unable to live without constant recognition. That is why I always laugh when they talk about Matthews bolting to Arizona. Matthews wants to be the top star in the league. No way is he bolting the Hockey Mecca to be on a team that doesn't matter. Taveres might be a different story though.

I worked (not for long) at a golf course Tavares is a member at, and my buddy stayed there for several years after (he posts here very infrequently), and I can tell you, the impression is he doesn't like the limelight. He comes off as private.

 

[BlueBaron]

I worked (not for long) at a golf course Tavares is a member at, and my buddy stayed there for several years after (he posts here very infrequently), and I can tell you, the impression is he doesn't like the limelight. He comes off as private.

It seems to be a common theme with Canadian kids, that's why I like American players, they want to be stars.

 

[Sypher04]

You are working under a lot of false assumptions. Firstly the income tax rate only applies to half his income, home games. So we are talking on the tax on 4.2 mil vs 5.

Next you ignore or probably do not know about the many options available for tax avoidance which are available to the wealthy, in all likelihood he is being taxed on a couple million assuming he has a good financial adviser. Also the cost of living in Canada is lower because of the Dollar.

Lastly and most obviously is the endorsement opportunities here vs Tampa. Back in the olden days when Clark was traded for Mats he noted the trade cost him 6 mil a year in endorsements and that was back then splitting the lion share with Gilmour. So do not kid yourself, Stamkos really did leave money on the table to stay in Tampa. I know it feels less like rejection when you look at it your way but I am afraid it is just not reality.

Now I do not have a lot of great insights into Tavares's personality so I cannot speculate about how important it is for him to be "The Man" which he would not be here. How does he feel about being in a fish bowl? How big a Leaf fan is he really etc? How badly does he want a Cup? Only he and his inner circle know for sure. He has a lot of options obviously with the Rangers and Habs jumping out at you. Both are comparable markets but the teams are not as good so what matters more? Winning or being the man? I guess time will tell.

NHLers, Canadians in particular are a loyal lot so odds are at least decent he stays on the Isle. Canadian players are also less prone to wanting to be famous and unable to live without constant recognition. That is why I always laugh when they talk about Matthews bolting to Arizona. Matthews wants to be the top star in the league. No way is he bolting the Hockey Mecca to be on a team that doesn't matter. Taveres might be a different story though.

Virtually everything from the media/analysts that I've ever read regarding the Stamkos situation (many written with help from tax experts) says nothing of the sort regarding him only not paying tax on his home games. That seems like the real false assumption here tbh. He is employed by and earns his money from the Tampa Bay Lightning. I don't see why where he performs a task matters in terms of his pay. I don't get taxed differently if my work sends me to the US for a month or two trips vs the rest of the year.

As for endorsements, I think sometimes too much is made of that. Stamkos hasn't exactly been hurting for endorsement deals through his NHL career thus far.

As for the comment about about rejection, I was actually among the people who never wanted to sign Stamkos for the deal he was going to command, so not really applicable.

Everything I said was perfectly logical. IF Stamkos left money on the table it wasn't a lot vs the higher tax markets.

 

[BlueBaron]

Virtually everything from the media/analysts that I've ever read regarding the Stamkos situation (many written with help from tax experts) says nothing of the sort regarding him only not paying tax on his home games. That seems like the real false assumption here tbh. He is employed by and earns his money from the Tampa Bay Lightning. I don't see why where he performs a task matters in terms of his pay. I don't get taxed differently if my work sends me to the US for a month or two trips vs the rest of the year.

As for endorsements, I think sometimes too much is made of that. Stamkos hasn't exactly been hurting for endorsement deals through his NHL career thus far.

As for the comment about about rejection, I was actually among the people who never wanted to sign Stamkos for the deal he was going to command, so not really applicable.

Everything I said was perfectly logical. IF Stamkos left money on the table it wasn't a lot vs the higher tax markets.

Jock tax - Wikipedia

The only road games players are not taxed on are in Florida, Texas and Washington. Just because you do not know something does not make it false.

As for endorsements....if you cannot see that there would be more money in the largest hockey market in the world vs a place where hockey is the 3rd or 4th most important sport you probably have not thought this out very well.

You have basically stated your opinion is what it is because that is what you want to believe. That is not a quality opinion.

 

[Sypher04]

Jock tax - Wikipedia

The only road games players are not taxed on are in Florida, Texas and Washington. Just because you do not know something does not make it false.

As for endorsements....if you cannot see that there would be more money in the largest hockey market in the world vs a place where hockey is the 3rd or 4th most important sport you probably have not thought this out very well.

You have basically stated your opinion is what it is because that is what you want to believe. That is not a quality opinion.

I didn't say there wouldn't be more money from endorsements, but I'm not convinced the difference would be as sizable as it's made out to be.

And, my opinion was developed based on reports I read back during Stamkos' run up to Free Agency, some of which cited tax experts. It certainly wasn't unfair to think they would be accurate before being shown anything contradictory. No offense meant, but I had no reason to just take your word for it.

Opinions are fluid. With this now I can change mine.

FWIW though, seems pretty unclear from the wikipedia IMO how much this jock tax actually amounts to as it doesn't seem to be % based, but an arbitrary figure. Very weird.

 

[Mess]

Aren't you always going on about how the Leafs need to upgrade their D? (Specifically trading away Marner to help it)

How do you expect us to improve it if we have Tavares signed for an insane cap hit?

I going to build my fantasy team around Matthews ($11 mil) & Tavares ($11 mil) at C, Doughty on D ($11 mil) and Freddy ($5 mil) in goal.

Strategy = "Build from the goalie out, through strong defense, and strength down the middle"

With those 4 above accounting for $38 mil of an $85 mil Cap = 45% and leaving 55% (=$47 mil) remaining cap room for the rest to fill around and as the cap continues to rise that 45% becomes less % each passing year.

This is Plan A.

 

[indigobuffalo]

"Blog" wasn't an option. Does it reallllly bother you that much about the pre-fix?

As someone who has a passion for writing are you sure you meant “pre-fix” and not “name” or “title”.

 

[indigobuffalo]

I think ice-time-wise the Leafs 3C is the 2nd scoring line C. So Nylander seems to be the player that we’re grooming for that role.

Depending on how he progresses this season that’s where he will fit in post-Bozak.

I think next year we will probably have Marleau on that line possibly even starting the season as the 3C, just to further acclimate Nylander. I think JVR is extended but maybe they opt for Soshnikov/Leivo instead.

 

[WTFMAN99]

As someone who has a passion for writing are you sure you meant “pre-fix” and not “name” or “title”.

I don't really have a passion for writing to be honest, just hockey. I am don't have any journalism background or anything of that nature.

 

[indigobuffalo]

I don't really have a passion for writing to be honest, just hockey. I am don't have any journalism background or anything of that nature.

Well then try to post-fix your post.