What are the Flames missing?

[Baxterman]

Sean Monahan has been playing like absolute trash for over a month. He's too inconsistent to be a first line player and has never produced like one without Johnny Gaudreau.

He played one season in the league without Gaudreau as a 18/19 year old and scored 22-12-34 which is more impressive than anything either Bennett or Jankowski has done.

Also Gaudreau has yet to produce in the NHL without Monahan as his center.

And even though you continually try to spin it into a negative about Monahan him producing or not has nothing to do with the ridiculous statement that Jankowski and Bennett are top line guys.

I will take two 60 point seasons, 1 58 point season and 1 22 goal season in 4 years over 1 month of bad play when the alternative is two guys that have done jack squat ever.

 

[zeke]

2yr Scoring Paces

Top-3: Gaudreau 76, Monahan 62, Backlund 52 = Mediocre 1st liner talent
2nd-3: Tkachuk 51, Jagr 42, Frolik 41 = Mediocre 2nd liner talent
3rd-3: Versteeg 41, Ferland 33, Bennett 29 = Mediocre 3rd liner talent
4th-3: Jankowski 32, Brouwer 25, Stajan 18 = Mediocre 4th liner talent
Extra-3: Hathaway 24, Lazar 13, Glass 9, Hamilton 7 = Mediocre extras

Top-2: Hamilton 46, Giordano 37 = Good 1st liner talent
2nd-2: Brodie 36, Hamonic 19 = Mediocre 2nd liner talent
3rd-2: Stone 15, Kulak 12 = Bad 3rd liner talent
Extra-2: Bartkowski 7, Andersson 0 = Bad extras

Top-1: Smith .916 = Mediocre starter
2nd-1: Lack .892 = Bad backup
3rd-1: Rittich .922 = ??? 3rd stringer


Now you could argue that some of these players' defensive value should up their grades here (Giordano, Backlund, Tkachuk, Frolik).....but overall I'm not sure I'd say defense is a particular strength of this group of players, so I'm not sure if that would change the overall take too much.

And yes they have some young guys who should improve, but they also have some old guys here that are probably not as good as these scoring paces suggest.

The question maybe should be...what exactly is this Flames team good at?

 

[VeteranNetPresence]

You're not going to win with a guy like Monahan centering your top line

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

This happened

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/it-is-time-to-talk-about-sean-monahan.2420665/page-2

Monahan - 2 points in 9 games since that thread was created

You might be spot on; making a "it's time" thread for Monahan was probably the dumbest thing I could ever have done because I confused him finally arriving with a hot streak. If I could undo anything I've ever done on HFBoards, that thread would be it. I've made a lot of bold claims on here that I'll stand by to the end, but that one was clownish of proportions of certain other CFHF members who actually think Monahan is a 1C.

No team is going anywhere giving Monahan such a prime role. His numbers come at the expense of the team. Bennett is our true 1C and when we realize that we will soar.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

2yr Scoring Paces

Top-3: Gaudreau 76, Monahan 62, Backlund 52 = Mediocre 1st liner talent
2nd-3: Tkachuk 51, Jagr 42, Frolik 41 = Mediocre 2nd liner talent
3rd-3: Versteeg 41, Ferland 33, Bennett 29 = Mediocre 3rd liner talent
4th-3: Jankowski 32, Brouwer 25, Stajan 18 = Mediocre 4th liner talent
Extra-3: Hathaway 24, Lazar 13, Glass 9, Hamilton 7 = Mediocre extras

Top-2: Hamilton 46, Giordano 37 = Good 1st liner talent
2nd-2: Brodie 36, Hamonic 19 = Mediocre 2nd liner talent
3rd-2: Stone 15, Kulak 12 = Bad 3rd liner talent
Extra-2: Bartkowski 7, Andersson 0 = Bad extras

Top-1: Smith .916 = Mediocre starter
2nd-1: Lack .892 = Bad backup
3rd-1: Rittich .922 = ??? 3rd stringer


Now you could argue that some of these players' defensive value should up their grades here (Giordano, Backlund, Tkachuk, Frolik).....but overall I'm not sure I'd say defense is a particular strength of this group of players, so I'm not sure if that would change the overall take too much.

And yes they have some young guys who should improve, but they also have some old guys here that are probably not as good as these scoring paces suggest.

The question maybe should be...what exactly is this Flames team good at?

I don't think you're wrong. But it's weird because I look at that team and I feel like they should be doing better. you could argue Monahan isn't the elite #1 that could carry, you could argue that Giordano is aging so he's not the elite #1 d that could carry, and Mike Smith has historically been too up and down to rely on....yet they have good players that function as better than usual #2s in their roles and good depth beyond.

 

[General Disarray]

Another top 4 D

 

[Coffey]

Another top 4 D

lol No they aren't. Scoring are their problems, not preventing goals.

 

[Coffey]

Uh no thanks.

We already have a Larssen guy in Hamonic and 3 other guys that are much more talented in Hamilton, Gio and Brodie.

Yea super talented offensive all-stars.

Flames D-men goals this season = 15
Oilers D-men goals this season = 16

This is why everyone that follows the NHL calls that overhyped bunch "the best d-core in the league" lol

 

[Tofveve]

The top line can look like the top line in the league for stretches. But for the last month they've looked below average for a top line IMO. And not to lay blame, but I do think Monahan struggles with consistency more than any first line centre that I know of. Johnny's not looked amazing over the last month but his play seems more nuanced and connected to his centreman - he still looks like he's trying hard and generating, but the finish and confidence isn't there. Consistency is the scariest thing as a die hard Flames fan with our top line and scoring generally.

I'm still not convinced that coaching isn't part of the problem. I don't recall the long slumps while Hartley was in town. He seemed to allow more free rein for our top guys though he'd come down time to time even benching Johnny a couple of times. But yeah, coaching could be a key issue here that needs addressing ASAP to many minds.

 

[Mikeshane]

Second line center, Backlund is not good enough.
Defense that is smarter/better defensively.
More scoring depth.
Better goaltending.

 

[trckrdr]

No team is going anywhere giving Monahan such a prime role. His numbers come at the expense of the team. Bennett is our true 1C and when we realize that we will soar.

Have you actually watched Bennett play centre? Having him on Janko's wing is one of the few things going right for the Flames.

Right now, we just don't score enough. Our defensemen need to get more involved in the offense, and we need at least our top 3 lines producing at a decent level

 

[Volica]

Here's a list:

1) Special teams.

• They suck. Can't score a PP goal to save their lives. PK gives up untimely goals, and you have a 50/50 that you'll either limit to no shots or spend the entire 2 minutes in their zone.

2) Better 1C

• I've stuck to my guns, Monahan isn't an elite 1C. He's a complimentary centre who's found good chemistry with Gaudreau. He's good offensively, but when that dries out you see what the actual problem is; the fact that he's no a true 1C.
• People point at 'look at his offensive numbers, blehhh top 10C'; no. Look it how Kopitar can take over a game and not notch a point. Check out Getzlaf, we've been dealing with him for the last decade, anyone see a huge disparity over him and Monahan? Getzlaf makes life ultra hard on Calgary when he plays them, every shift he looks like he could produce. Monahan doesn't do that. He doesn't like the puck, he doesn't have the vision to produce with it.
• To me he's more or less your run-of-the-mill, offensive 2C that you can shelter on a good team, that or your convert LW that can scorch teams.

3) Coaching

• No reason to have fodder like Stajan, Brouwer or Bartkowski in the lineup. They bring nothing, and get primo time.
• No ability to adjust. After scoring more than 2 goals, twice over the past 10 games or something, Gulutzan says to the media there will be changes. Changes included: Injured Frolik out, Jagr up to his line where he played 50% of the game previously, Bartkowski in for Kulak. Like, that's it, that's all.
• Continues to use Tkachuk as a shutdown winger. I think he'll be a better player than a guy like Marchand when all is said and done, but right now he's currently having to shut down the other teams' best lines every night, while also producing at a 50+point clip (while also having downright dominant possession numbers). This guy is a wizard with the puck and ultra intelligent. To think, he has literally had less than 20 minutes of 5v5 play with Gaudreau in his entier career. Your two most gifted players, and the coach has never played them in a game to see if there's anything there.
• Not riding hot hands. Bennett is producing like a mad man now, every time he's on the ice he's producing... coach is keeping him with Jankowski (1 goal in like 10 games) and Hathaway (Fringe NHL grinder who is finding an excellent second gear). You have a chance to move him back down the middle and anchor him alongside your most talented players...

Anyone who says the defence is garbage, is just out to lunch or trying to troll Calgary. Those guys limit dangerous chances all night and don't give up a lot of primo shots. The problem is 3/4 forward lines haven't heard of defence; not much your best Dman is going to do when your centre isn't picking up a guy driving the slot.

 

[SladeWilson23]

Dalton Prout apparently

 

[Hogan86]

I feel this way but what really is the difference between say Monahan and Johansen who seems to be considered a legit #1C

Not alot of difference there. But Nashville has stronger D and goaltending, which is why the Preds are legitimate contenders and the Flames aren't.

 

[Baxterman]

Better 1C is a pipe dream.

And is the issue that Monahan isn't a #1C or elite C because I see many (not only you) seem to switch between the terms when is suits their argument.

I agree that Monahan isn't an elite 1C but there are so few of them that I don't really see that as a big deal. I definitely disagree that he isn't a clear cut 1C. He is far from the issue with this team no matter how many times some odd subsection of the fan base try to disparage him.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Better 1C is a pipe dream.

And is the issue that Monahan isn't a #1C or elite C because I see many (not only you) seem to switch between the terms when is suits their argument.

I agree that Monahan isn't an elite 1C but there are so few of them that I don't really see that as a big deal. I definitely disagree that he isn't a clear cut 1C. He is far from the issue with this team no matter how many times some odd subsection of the fan base try to disparage him.

Like Volica said, he's a complementary center. He's not a guy who can dictate the play and dominate a game like a Getzlaf or Kopitar.

Nearly every team in the league has a better 1C than Calgary. It's a glaring weakness.

 

[Baxterman]

Like Volica said, he's a complementary center. He's not a guy who can dictate the play and dominate a game like a Getzlaf or Kopitar.

Nearly every team in the league has a better 1C than Calgary. It's a glaring weakness.

Kopitar is a top 5 center in the league and Getzlaf is a former top 5 still a top 10 center. Sure he isn't at that level but neither is any of Calgary's players.

How come we aren't crapping on Gio for not being Doughty, Karlsson, Hedman etc. or Gaudreau for not being Kucherov, Benn, Tarasenko?

I doubt most teams have a better center and plenty of teams near the top do not- St. Louis, Vegas, NJ, Colombus.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Kopitar is a top 5 center in the league and Getzlaf is a former top 5 still a top 10 center. Sure he isn't at that level but neither is any of Calgary's players.

How come we aren't crapping on Gio for not being Doughty, Karlsson, Hedman etc. or Gaudreau for not being Kucherov, Benn, Tarasenko?

I doubt most teams have a better center and plenty of teams near the top do not- St. Louis, Vegas, NJ, Colombus.

Edmonton
LA
San Jose
Anaheim
Chicago
Minnesota
Nashville
Dallas
Winnipeg
Colorado
Pittsburgh
Philadelphia
Washington
NYI
Florida
Buffalo
Boston
Tampa Bay
Toronto

All those teams very easily have a better 1C (and some of them 2C)

I'd say the following teams also have a better 1C:

St Louis
New Jersey
Montreal
Columbus

 

[Baxterman]

Edmonton
LA
San Jose
Anaheim
Chicago
Minnesota
Nashville
Dallas
Winnipeg
Colorado
Pittsburgh
Philadelphia
Washington
NYI
Florida
Buffalo
Boston
Tampa Bay
Toronto

All those teams very easily have a better 1C (and some of them 2C)

I'd say the following teams also have a better 1C:

St Louis
New Jersey
Montreal
Columbus

Not a chance that Montreal or NJ have a better center than Monahan.

Schenn has to do it more than just the first part of this season for me to put him ahead of Monahan. I easily take Monahan over Wennberg as well.

I prefer Monahan to Granlund but I know many love him so could see the arguement there, I would put Mackinnon on par with Monahan. Eichel has more pure talent but I would like to see more consistency out of him but expect that going forward he will be better.

So that is right about where I would expect Monahan (and the Flames) to be about 15th in the league when it comes to centers. There scoring depth is almost certainly lower than that. Their RW depth is 100% worse than that. So a lot of bigger issues that this team has than Monahan.

Considering there is about a zero percent chance that they are getting better than that without completely tanking I think it is a pretty silly place to put the blame effort when there are much more likely areas they can focus on to improve that will actually help the team and is possible to fix.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Not a chance that Montreal or NJ have a better center than Monahan.

Schenn has to do it more than just the first part of this season for me to put him ahead of Monahan. I easily take Monahan over Wennberg as well.

I prefer Monahan to Granlund but I know many love him so could see the arguement there, I would put Mackinnon on par with Monahan. Eichel has more pure talent but I would like to see more consistency out of him but expect that going forward he will be better.

So that is right about where I would expect Monahan (and the Flames) to be about 15th in the league when it comes to centers. There scoring depth is almost certainly lower than that. Their RW depth is 100% worse than that. So a lot of bigger issues that this team has than Monahan.

Considering there is about a zero percent chance that they are getting better than that without completely tanking I think it is a pretty silly place to put the blame effort when there are much more likely areas they can focus on to improve that will actually help the team and is possible to fix.

The thread title is "what are the flames missing?". The answer is a true 1C. That may be tough to come by but it's the truth.

Luckily they've got guys like Jankowski and Bennett who have the potential to become that type of player.

 

[Baxterman]

The thread title is "what are the flames missing?". The answer is a true 1C. That may be tough to come by but it's the truth.

Luckily they've got guys like Jankowski and Bennett who have the potential to become that type of player.

Except they aren't missing a number 1c. Even on your list that is only 18 teams so if that is as bad as he is considered by the guy who hates him most that is still pretty good.

And no Jankowski and Bennett don't have close to 1C potential and certainly not any more potential than Monahan.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Except they aren't missing a number 1c. Even on your list that is only 18 teams so if that is as bad as he is considered by the guy who hates him most that is still pretty good.

And no Jankowski and Bennett don't have close to 1C potential and certainly not any more potential than Monahan.

Monahan isn't a true 1C. He's too inconsistent and too one dimensional.

 

[aufheben]

I don't understand how either Monahan or their defenders are the problem?

 

[Baxterman]

I don't understand how either Monahan or their defenders are the problem?

Well one guy, who isn't even a Flames fan, has made it his mission to discredit Monahan because he thinks it helps to pump up his idol Gaudreau by claiming he has to play with bums.

And another guy seems to be so in deep with his Bennett love that he wants to see Monahan down the line-up so Bennett can move to 1C and in his view contend for the Hart.

Take them away and I think you will see that level headed Flames fans, coaches, management and media don't think Monahan is the problem.

But two very vocal posters can skew the perception if you don't know their backgrounds.

 

[Baxterman]

Monahan isn't a true 1C. He's too inconsistent and too one dimensional.

Except the two guys you keep trying to shoe horn in there are even more inconsistent, every bit as one dimensional if not more and don't have close to the talent that Monahan has.

Monahan has shown over the past 3 years that he clearly is a 1C the only argument to be made now is how high he ranks versus the other 1C in the game because there ceratinly isn't 30 C's in the game better than him and as you have already shown less than 20 (more like 15) teams that don't have a better C than him.