Speculation: What’s wrong with this team?

[Great8Cam]

They can’t play dump and chase. they’re not built for that. Possession hockey will work.

 

[KW]

They can’t play dump and chase. they’re not built for that. Possession hockey will work.

Exactly! But their coach didn’t want to do it and their D is reinforcing that belief by not being able to spring the forwards with accurate passes.

 

[Dread Clawz]

Their hockey in 2022 playoffs didn't look like "Florida hockey" as opposed to 2021 playoffs.

Q ran it better than Bruno, but Q is gone and Bruno isn't ready to be a HC. In both 21 and 22 though, the theme was the same. Tampa outdefended us, outsmarted us, and outgrinded us. That's what Maurice is trying to correct. He's not perfect, but I agree with the direction he's going in.

They can’t play dump and chase. they’re not built for that. Possession hockey will work.

They're not gonna win the Cup playing firewagon hockey. They're not really built for that either. We lost some offensive weapons, and it may take us years to regain that same forward depth.

 

[KW]

Q ran it better than Bruno, but Q is gone and Bruno isn't ready to be a HC. In both 21 and 22 though, the theme was the same. Tampa outdefended us, outsmarted us, and outgrinded us. That's what Maurice is trying to correct. He's not perfect, but I agree with the direction he's going in.


They're not gonna win the Cup playing firewagon hockey. They're not really built for that either. We lost some offensive weapons, and it may take us years to regain that same forward depth.

They should pay WAY more attention to really spending time practicing PP and PK. Tampa owes almost 50% of its playoffs success on those.

 

[Dread Clawz]

They should pay WAY more attention to really spending time practicing PP and PK. Tampa owes almost 50% of its playoffs success on those.

I agree that our special teams are insufficient.

 

[PanthersHockey1]

The Q fiasco probably set this organization back more than any recent roster move by a large margin it appears.

We are not playing the right way and we haven’t played the right way since the mustache was behind the bench.

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

The Q fiasco probably set this organization back more than any recent roster move by a large margin it appears.

We are not playing the right way and we haven’t played the right way since the mustache was behind the bench.

I don't see how, with how Bob played in the playoffs, that last years team doesn't make the finals with him behind the bench.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

They are close to the pinnacle. They have several years to figure it out, make tweaks, let a couple prospects mature. I don't know why it sounds like you just assume failure. You really want to rebuild. Let's say they rebuild tomorrow. You can't trade Barkov. That alone keeps them out of the bottom of the basement. So you are hoping for very slim odds to win the lottery. Some other guys you probably can't even sell off for varying reasons. They are too good to get a Bedard, Fantilli, Michkov, Kiviharju, Misa. And even if they were, tanking doesn't work like it did even 10 years ago. Look at Arizona, they got screwed out of a top 2 pick, and now they are slightly better this season and will probably also miss out on Bedard, Fantilli, and Michkov. Their grand masterplan of being godawful and trying to nab the #1 pick for multiple years has crashed and burned. They have several great prospects, but their future outlook doesn't look that great honestly. They look like they might be the second coming of the 00's Panthers. Bad but not bad enough to get top 2 picks. I don't see a future powerhouse there. Unless they trade Chychrun and somehow plummet to the very bottom for the next couple years.

We are near the top now. So it makes no sense to tear it down. If we rebuild tomorrow, it might take us more than 5 years to get back to this point. And no guarantee of continued advancement. We've also depleted our draft picks for the next few years.

Where did I say Lundell and Knight are moving the needle? I said if we rebuild, we probably keep them as they will still be young-ish and in their primes. And you're still gonna need a goalie and a top 6 two-way center.

I never said any of this.
And most of the things you said and acredited to what I want, is nothing like what I'm saying. This is the problem. A lot of the time, people think "tank" and "top 5 picks", boom, rebuild. It's a lot more details that go into a team build than that. And that's mostly what I'm talking about, the details outside of just drafting. And the one I was focusing on for this discussion was the fact that teams that make a good plan and stick to it, are the teams that separate themselves from the pack. They stay patient, and don't deviate from the plan.
The Panthers have gone in several different directions. This team is not close to a cup, Names on the back of the jerseys do not win cups. And even with that, I'm not overly impressed with this team like that. At least as far as winning a cup.
It's a lot more to winning a cup than what bodies you can bring in, and what rosters you have. That's the point I'm trying to make. It's a process, and the Panthers' process has not been cup worthy. And what I meant by Lundell and Knight is they're not moving the needle as far as winning the cup. Doesn't matter if they're young or not, stay or go.

 

[Dread Clawz]

I never said any of this.
And most of the things you said and acredited to what I want, is nothing like what I'm saying. This is the problem. A lot of the time, people think "tank" and "top 5 picks", boom, rebuild. It's a lot more details that go into a team build than that. And that's mostly what I'm talking about, the details outside of just drafting. And the one I was focusing on for this discussion was the fact that teams that make a good plan and stick to it, are the teams that separate themselves from the pack. They stay patient, and don't deviate from the plan.
The Panthers have gone in several different directions. This team is not close to a cup, Names on the back of the jerseys do not win cups. And even with that, I'm not overly impressed with this team like that. At least as far as winning a cup.
It's a lot more to winning a cup than what bodies you can bring in, and what rosters you have. That's the point I'm trying to make. It's a process, and the Panthers' process has not been cup worthy. And what I meant by Lundell and Knight is they're not moving the needle as far as winning the cup. Doesn't matter if they're young or not, stay or go.

My friend, this team is closer to a Cup than if they blow it up and wait 5-7 to get respectable again. If like you say they don't get top 2 picks and yet still manage to build a solid team several years later with shrewd moves, there's still.no guarantee they'll be as good as they are now.
Tallon had a process, but it was messed with and compromised by ownership. He also made some mistakes as well. Zito had to correct a flawed roster and cap situation, he didn't come into an ideal situation. He has a process as well, it just wasn't a rebuild. A retool is a process. Zito can't be blamed for past mistakes of owners and GMs. He's done a pretty good job since coming in, all things considered. This group definitely has the potential to win a Cup. You can disagree and that's fine, but no Panther core has had as much success as we've had the past couple years since the '93-97 team.

Are Lundell and Knight not both very promising young players, especially for their age? Lol. That's it. That's all I was trying to say. Idk why you're being so nitpicky.

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

My enjoyment at this point is just watching @TkachuksPestControl bump main board threads. Hopefully the Devils lose again so that gets bumped.

 

[austropanther]

The team of last year transpired so much joy for the game, so much coolness and swagger to just go out and play, and all that through the whole Q story...

This feeling is completely gone. They seem like a disgruntled helpless sorry-for-themselves group right now. Q taught this team to never lose the fun for the game, and Bruno managed to ndot interfere with that and to just let them play. To me it seems that PoMo's presence messed that up, and the team indeed has to find a new identity again. I doubt that this identity fits to our group of players.

 

[KW]

The team of last year transpired so much joy for the game, so much coolness and swagger to just go out and play, and all that through the whole Q story...

This feeling is completely gone. They seem like a disgruntled helpless sorry-for-themselves group right now. Q taught this team to never lose the fun for the game, and Bruno managed to ndot interfere with that and to just let them play. To me it seems that PoMo's presence messed that up, and the team indeed has to find a new identity again. I doubt that this identity fits to our group of players.

I truly hate to admit it but you’re spot on.

 

[GermanPanther]

no guarantee they'll be as good as they are now.

.486 is not good right now, Injuries are only excuses many teams faced before.
And i disagree with the second point of your Post, the double trade last year and the cost for both was far off.
Giroux showed emotion what was missed by most of the Team and grinded. And now we play that kind of Game that near no one in this Team wanna play beside 2nd Line down.

This Team has no Team spirit or a philosophy they are growing otherwise this Team would play or act different.

This Team reached a lot the last two Years and falled apart in both PO Years, the best Coach in Hockey is gone.
And i agree Bruno is no HeadCoach, but took over. Since then with the new Game and philosophie this Team looks gone and empty.
My 5 Cent on the Main Roster. AHL is something complete different.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

My friend, this team is closer to a Cup than if they blow it up and wait 5-7 to get respectable again. If like you say they don't get top 2 picks and yet still manage to build a solid team several years later with shrewd moves, there's still.no guarantee they'll be as good as they are now.
Tallon had a process, but it was messed with and compromised by ownership. He also made some mistakes as well. Zito had to correct a flawed roster and cap situation, he didn't come into an ideal situation. He has a process as well, it just wasn't a rebuild. A retool is a process. Zito can't be blamed for past mistakes of owners and GMs. He's done a pretty good job since coming in, all things considered. This group definitely has the potential to win a Cup. You can disagree and that's fine, but no Panther core has had as much success as we've had the past couple years since the '93-97 team.

Are Lundell and Knight not both very promising young players, especially for their age? Lol. That's it. That's all I was trying to say. Idk why you're being so nitpicky.

It's not about the roster, it's about the process it takes in getting to where you are. You're right with the fact that ownership compromised Tallon's process. But the harsh reality is, you don't get a second chance with that. This is not about fans and what they think, it's about what the reality of the situation is. What reality says to you, this is what you need to win a cup. Rosters are only as good as the process it took to build it. And Zito is irrelevant. There's nothing he can do. That's why retools don't work. It's not his fault, but it is what it is. "Retools" are only good for a team that has already won a cup. And then it's mostly are about getting in the right coach, for a proven cup winning core group.
And the point is, you say it will take 5-7 years for a rebuild to get to this point. But if this group doesn't win a cup in 2 or if you really are being generous, 3 years (I don't think they have 3 years). They definitely are not winning it 7 years from now. And then you have a old roster that's not on the verge of winning a cup.

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

But if this group doesn't win a cup in 2 or...

imo they aren't going to win one just because the mgmt (both Tallon and Zito eras) simply cannot min/max their options, such as making small incremental improvements while maximizing their options for future opportunities with trades/FA signings. More specifically, their ability to evaluate players for their future potential is more or less questionable.

It's easy for them to depict themselves as great talent evaluators when they are presented with rookies like Lundell and Knight who can be impact players right from the get-go... but what's their track record regarding other not so notable players? piss poor I'd say. In other words, the Panthers org is essentially operating with a handicap of not being able to produce their own NHLers and having to rely on other teams' discard piles.

If I had to make a realistic guess about the Panthers' cup winning chances then maybe in 2024-25 they could make a cup run but even then Zito would need to shed off that Bob contract. Just based on the way Zito has managed this team lately pushes their cup window further into the future. And even then I'd be wary of their chances. I mean, the dude traded a 1st and then some for Chariot. Whatta joke.

 

[Dread Clawz]

The team of last year transpired so much joy for the game, so much coolness and swagger to just go out and play, and all that through the whole Q story...

This feeling is completely gone. They seem like a disgruntled helpless sorry-for-themselves group right now. Q taught this team to never lose the fun for the game, and Bruno managed to ndot interfere with that and to just let them play. To me it seems that PoMo's presence messed that up, and the team indeed has to find a new identity again. I doubt that this identity fits to our group of players.

Wasn't Bruno criticized for just 'not wanting to interfere with what Q established'. Of course they're gonna have a different identity. Q is gone. It's time to move on.

 

[Dread Clawz]

.486 is not good right now, Injuries are only excuses many teams faced before.
And i disagree with the second point of your Post, the double trade last year and the cost for both was far off.
Giroux showed emotion what was missed by most of the Team and grinded. And now we play that kind of Game that near no one in this Team wanna play beside 2nd Line down.

This Team has no Team spirit or a philosophy they are growing otherwise this Team would play or act different.

This Team reached a lot the last two Years and falled apart in both PO Years, the best Coach in Hockey is gone.
And i agree Bruno is no HeadCoach, but took over. Since then with the new Game and philosophie this Team looks gone and empty.
My 5 Cent on the Main Roster. AHL is something complete different.

Well as tonight showed, they are capable of much more than .486 win %. No one would disagree that they have underachieved this season so far. We'll see what they do in the sscond half. But they still have the potential to be a top 10 team.

The cost around the league for Chiarot was a 1st. It is what it is. It didn't work out, but Chiarot was highly sought after at the time and that was the cost. I was never really behind the Giroux acquisition, in hindsight Lehkonen would have been a better acquisition. But if those are Zito's 2 worst trades, he's not that bad. He's made many other good trades. Idk how anyone can say he hasn't done a good job with this team since he got here.

It's gonna take time to adjust to a new system and philosophy. There's gonna be growing pains as we've seen. But we couldn't get past Tampa 2 years playing run and gun hockey. So why would we want a new head coach with the same systems? It doesn't work in the playoffs. Sure, they may have fun in the regular season and yeah they probably love playing that style, but we're not out for regular season trophies anymore.

 

[Dread Clawz]

It's not about the roster, it's about the process it takes in getting to where you are. You're right with the fact that ownership compromised Tallon's process. But the harsh reality is, you don't get a second chance with that. This is not about fans and what they think, it's about what the reality of the situation is. What reality says to you, this is what you need to win a cup. Rosters are only as good as the process it took to build it. And Zito is irrelevant. There's nothing he can do. That's why retools don't work. It's not his fault, but it is what it is. "Retools" are only good for a team that has already won a cup. And then it's mostly are about getting in the right coach, for a proven cup winning core group.
And the point is, you say it will take 5-7 years for a rebuild to get to this point. But if this group doesn't win a cup in 2 or if you really are being generous, 3 years (I don't think they have 3 years). They definitely are not winning it 7 years from now. And then you have a old roster that's not on the verge of winning a cup.

St. Louis retooled, they didn't rebuild. They won the Cup. Saying retools don't work is ridiculous. Carolina also didn't follow a traditional rebuild in 2006. San Jose came as close as you can without winning it for 15 years.

I also think saying this group only has 3 years is ludicrous. Their entire core is 21-27 years old. Barkov will still probably be a top 15 player in his early 30's.

You think that a rebuild is the only way to win a Cup...yet like I showcased with Arizona, tanking doesn't even work any more with the new lottery rules. So building a contender from the ground up without getting top 2 picks like you seem to hope for, is so ridiculously, extremely unlikely. The odds of that coming to fruition are much slimmer than Zito potentially adding the right finishing touches to a very talented core.

 

[ScottyMascotty]

But we couldn't get past Tampa 2 years playing run and gun hockey.

Was it really a system thing?

 

[Dread Clawz]

Was it really a system thing?

Well, what do you think it was then

 

[FrolikFan67]

Still 6 games to go before we even reach the half way point of the season. Plenty of time to makeup ground in the standings. Let’s hope everyone stays fairly healthy moving forward

 

[austropanther]

Wasn't Bruno criticized for just 'not wanting to interfere with what Q established'. Of course they're gonna have a different identity. Q is gone. It's time to move on.

There is a difference between keeping an identity intact through avoiding major changes and refraining to make any systematic changes at all. Bruno not reacting at all to our miserable PP was just a horrible coaching decision and showed his inexperience. Yet he was a fitting guy for the team's moral and free-flow game play that they excelled at most of the time.

I am not criticizing PoMo for the fact he wants them to change their identity. I was just wondering if it is the best fitting identity for the players we currently have and if it is getting the most out of them. It always is a cruel time for the team to fight through system changes.

And I don't believe I sounded like whining about the good old Q times, even though I still believe he is by far the best coach out of our last 3.

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

I was just wondering if it is the best fitting identity for the players we currently have and if it is getting the most out of them.

It is because that's the only way to expose a lot of these players who are not mentally or physically equipped for the playoffs.

But I don't think that they've changed their strategy all that much but rather the player material has been downgraded significantly which some ppl refuse to pin on Zito and therefore they consider the poor ranking in the standings as solely Mo's fault.

Mo is definitely deserving of some flak for playing EStall ~18mins per game but Zito keeps fiddling with the calculator and has deduced that the underlying advanced stats look great and the Panthers should be of the top teams in the league. I can understand why they keep Ekblad on the 1PP unit because they want to retain max amount of trade value in him but what's the end goal with EStall? Looks to me that some of the decision making in the mgmt team has been outsourced to a bunch of chimpanzees.

 

[Dread Clawz]

There is a difference between keeping an identity intact through avoiding major changes and refraining to make any systematic changes at all. Bruno not reacting at all to our miserable PP was just a horrible coaching decision and showed his inexperience. Yet he was a fitting guy for the team's moral and free-flow game play that they excelled at most of the time.

I am not criticizing PoMo for the fact he wants them to change their identity. I was just wondering if it is the best fitting identity for the players we currently have and if it is getting the most out of them. It always is a cruel time for the team to fight through system changes.

And I don't believe I sounded like whining about the good old Q times, even though I still believe he is by far the best coach out of our last 3.

I think if there are some players that don't fit the identity, then they need to be shipped out. I believe in Zito and Maurice's direction. We need to become harder to play against and have different ways we can score in the playoffs. Playoff hockey is tighter, more physical, more grinding. They need to get used to playing that way to have success in the postseason.

 

[GermanPanther]

Well as tonight showed, they are capable of much more than .486 win %. No one would disagree that they have underachieved this season so far. We'll see what they do in the sscond half. But they still have the potential to be a top 10 team.

The cost around the league for Chiarot was a 1st. It is what it is. It didn't work out, but Chiarot was highly sought after at the time and that was the cost. I was never really behind the Giroux acquisition, in hindsight Lehkonen would have been a better acquisition. But if those are Zito's 2 worst trades, he's not that bad. He's made many other good trades. Idk how anyone can say he hasn't done a good job with this team since he got here.

It's gonna take time to adjust to a new system and philosophy. There's gonna be growing pains as we've seen. But we couldn't get past Tampa 2 years playing run and gun hockey. So why would we want a new head coach with the same systems? It doesn't work in the playoffs. Sure, they may have fun in the regular season and yeah they probably love playing that style, but we're not out for regular season trophies anymore.

Dont see it like you, the Beginning and coming into a Season is always important and eastern conference is getting tough our own Division, is for me current the toughest you can play or face.
Buffalo infront of us 3 Games less +21 Detroit after 2 years good rebuild getting stronger and stronger, stability is amost. To get into the PO we must beat everyone infront of us from the current standing.
And lets say today they can proof how good they are back to back against metropolitan Division Leader, will definetly show another .500% results.

But to proof your system works in the PO you must reach the PO and this start sorry middle of the Season nearly doesnt show me anything we will reach that Point. With the current System cause the adjustment took to long.
"In our best Time and winning regular Season Trophies" we adjusted in 15-25 Games that window you have otherwise you run against Windmill, till the end of the Season.

Also yesterday PK work baddest PP Team in the NHL scores twice against us in PP. Adjustments or still in process?
I asked me on the 2nd Goal from Montreal how should one Defender handle two Forwards infront of the own Net. Only cause the 2nd Defensman jumped out on the Forward on the Board Side. Maybe bad play from the Player or when it was the new System something, someone could explain me better. For my Person 2on1 infront net is always a lost.

For my personal opinion i was also against Giroux trade, since it was this last year chance trade. No one needed, we had enough offensive Power. And there was other option then Chiarot on the market for a trade. What also brought up new defensive pairings near the end of the Season. That thing i will not or never understand. Well working defensive Pairings is hard to get and need years to figure each other perfect out and before you wanna climb a difficult Mountain you switch your climbing Partner.
But yes that was terrible trades, Giroux maybe with his personal PO preformance not. But the bigger result is, we have cap Issue, that problem was known before could happen and you have nothing to work with it now.
And for bigger contracts you need atleast a 2nd round pick for heavy heavy duties a 1st in return.
And next Season wont be better then this Season, 1 Million Cap raise at maximum.

We are already 2,2 Million over the Cap 8,3 Million on LTIR, 2 RFA next Season, mostly you loose 6 UFA Players to about cap situation, oh that would include loosing Gudas next Season. I hope we have something up next Season to take his place.

The overall cap Situation and only have 1 Year more before the thing going really worse. I dont know.
23-24 running our contracts, Reinhardt, Montour, Forsling. Lundell and Lustorainen RFA years.
The Problem is not the MainCore is 26-27, the main Problem will be how much talent you can hold year after year while the Cap is stock and you dont have space to work with or anything else to work with. no 1st round Pick for 23,24,25 is heavy no one knowed what happend but no its a slap in the face. with steady cap and already reaching the max cap, you will loose skilled and expierenced player year after year after year. about the Cap Issue and thats why you have current a window.
Dont see where the bigger talents are coming from Minor or depth player come from the Minor.
Sorry this both trades maybe doesnt looked like a mess in the past. But the future doesnt look bright when you face year over year bigger problems, in the Cap department and reach enough Players.