We're not Tanking

[alex716]

Although the team looks a bit thin, I feel like all the players holding the team back was abandoned, and I believe that Burns would be more useful on the D, so overall I feel like the team is moving in the right direction. And considering how successful last season was, apart from those last 4 games, it's looking pretty good imo.

If I was DW I would have tried to gain a 2nd line winger like Jussi Jokinen, and a puck-moving shooting defenseman. The latter would have been hard to find without giving something away in return, plus Burns might be able to fill in that role. And the team isn't really desperate in need of another winger. If most pieces falls in place this team will be a major contender, and even if Burns, Nieto and Hertl would have somewhat disappointing seasons, they will still have a realistic shot at reaching the 2nd round, and maybe even further than that. Making the playoffs is pretty much inevitable with Thornton still on the team.

 

[hockeyball]

Or maybe it will take more than a season to correct it unless a Thornton trade lands in his lap?

This is a rebuild year whether you want to accept it or not. We are not competing for the cup this year unless a Miracle On Ice happens. Next year? Maybe. But we don't need to, nor should we, tank to make it happen. We'll just have lower expectations for a while. A couple years of holding onto our picks and prospects, filling needs with the prospects that work out and eventually ready to trade some prospects and regulars for needs will start to happen again.

Tanking for the sake of higher picks in our position would be the real insane move here. They are never a guarantee of anything. We know what we have.

I'll mention again that Babcock stated unequivocally at the Awards Red Carpet that the Wings don't believe in trading pics period. You can't compete if you do. You need the cheap labor they produce and you need to find a few diamonds to remain competitive.

The problem with that it is unlikely with that strategy you will draft a player capable of replacing the production lost from Marleau and/or Thornton (let alone both). You'll get more Hertl's and Goldobins, which is fine, but the odds those players turn into a gamebreaking player are pretty low. By the time those 2-3 seasons are over you have to assume Marleau/Thornton are gone (either to free agency, trade, or decline).

The solution is, as long as you are going to accept losing a season, LOSE A SEASON. Uhg.

 

[TealManV]

I agree that the biggest hole has been and still is the #2 LD. But on July 11th, we are positive that there's no way for DW to acquire one prior to camp? I have a tough time with that. No one expected the Thornton trade. Same with Boyle. I know this isn't the final roster we'll ice heading into this season.

And I personally don't care what DW has to say. Why would he be transparent and honest with us? He was pissed off and just trying to lower the bar. I highly doubt that he expects Mueller to fill that #2 LD. He's only opening the door to that possibility. I would expect him to battle with Irwin and Hannan for the #6. As frustrating as this offseason has been, being impatient makes it worse imo.

 

[WantonAbandon]

So in other words the Sharks are rational and not insane in the membrane.

And Hockeyball, you are assuming the Sharks have no choice but stagnate without doing the ridiculous and unprecedented. This has never been the Redwings problem. They transitioned just fine in the past and are transitioning just fine once again.

 

[nerdybeard]

Positive outlook:
DW didn't want to overpay in FA, and didn't feel any of the available UFA's on 7/1 would have brought what he wanted to to table. Instead, he'll play the waiting game to see what other teams do (what else is new) and see if the Pens/Bruins get in worse cap hell and offer sheet Despres/Krug to fill #2LHD at a reasonable price. He may also feel that the first chunk of the season WILL show some assets are movable and make a splash at the deadline to address any issues the first part of the season shows with some of the changes coming (fire under #12/19, Burns on D, Hertl getting consistent ice time, Pavs continuing to produce?, etc.) I don't really know what all the goon signings help with - but I mean I guess we had some space and maybe they'll help in ways we just don't understand yet?

Negative:
DW has lost touch and really doesn't get the needs. He will see how this "handicapped" (could have been much better if 1-2 trades/better signings happened) team performs and see who wants to stay and who wants out. Obviously, that could end up in the "wasted season" we hear about - where our vets get another year older and our rookies are subject to an interesting locker room vibe the sharks havent' seen in a while (aka not going for the cup... as per their own GM that didn't support them in getting players to push them over the edge.


I don't know how I even feel now - I just want to wait and see. It's painful, but I do have some hope that DW has some sort of plan in place.. to us it seems like lol omg we just needed a #2LHD and we would have been a cup team - but the brass sees more than that right now it seems. I'm anxiously awaiting a timely offer sheet from DW - as I believe in some of the Positive post a put above.

edit: words and stuff

 

[sharks_dynasty]

There never was going to be a tank, a rebuild, or even a major retool...it was all just noise and a major wake up call (and warning) to change the players & management already here. What's really changed for last years Sharks vs. next years Sharks? We've gotten rid of our two worst defensemen, and shifted Burns back to D. We do have a gap to fill at F with Burns going back to D (even though he was horrible), and I'd still like to see a LH PMD added...but neither of those things may happen until the trade deadline, or maybe we throw an offer at a RFA. We've made some small $$$ signings on thuggish 4th liners/healthy scratches (which I have not been a fan of).

I truly believe last years team was a Vlasic injury away from the Cup Final (I said before the series started I thought the LA/SJ winner was going to the Cup), and even though we've mostly done addition by subtraction with getting rid of Havlat, Boyle, and Stuart...I'm damn happy with those moves, and I do believe we have a chance at being a better team next year (and I realize I am in the minority on that). That all being said, I would have liked us to have gone after a FA who fits our needs, and am disapointed that we didn't. I'm even more disapointed in the signings of Brown, Scott, and Haley (wasted $$$, and more importantly, wasted roster spots on dinosaurs). I'd like to throw an RFA offer at that LH PMD or LW/RW right now, and not wait until the trade deadline to make a move.

Even if all we've done going into next season is rid ourselves of Boyle, Stuart and Havlat...great job, and we're a better team for it.

+1

The Sharks have a chance to be very competitive next year with the mix of youth and veterans. There is still lots of time between now and the trade deadline next year to improve and tweak the team. I am confident that Doug has a plan and will execute accordingly.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I agree that the biggest hole has been and still is the #2 LD. But on July 11th, we are positive that there's no way for DW to acquire one prior to camp? I have a tough time with that. No one expected the Thornton trade. Same with Boyle. I know this isn't the final roster we'll ice heading into this season.

And I personally don't care what DW has to say. Why would he be transparent and honest with us? He was pissed off and just trying to lower the bar. I highly doubt that he expects Mueller to fill that #2 LD. He's only opening the door to that possibility. I would expect him to battle with Irwin and Hannan for the #6. As frustrating as this offseason has been, being impatient makes it worse imo.

DW could get one tomorrow if he's willing to pay the price. This issue has been there for a long time now. Since he's dumped Ehrhoff, he's gone with far less than good options for the position. What makes anyone think anything will be different this time around?

 

[SJGoalie32]

The Kings are a prime example of a dominant possession team who doesn't have controlled rushes all that often.

True, but they also generate far more shots off their zone entries.

I suspect and observe (though small sample sized and biased observation they may be) that when the Kings enter the zone (odd-man break or otherwise), they drive the net much harder and are much more aggressive about getting a quality shot. When they possess the puck in the zone off a faceoff or collected rebound, there is much more player movement (among everyone) into and out of the slot, rather than just passing the puck back and forth along the perimeter waiting for the one point shot that will hopefully result in a screen/tip/rebound, or trying to force a pass to a stationary target in the middle of a stout shell.

Kings forwards will actually skate towards the net opening up passing lanes for linemates in the middle. I don't see much of that sort of consistent slot player movement by the Sharks. The defensemen stay high, JT stays in the corner or behind the net. That leaves two wingers to do all the other work in the zone....both along the boards and in front of the net. It's predictable and easier to defend

I don't have the actual stats to back this up, but I would highly suspect the Kings get shots in the prime scoring areas (the slot) at a far greater rate than the Sharks do (shots from perimeter). You get that with player movement in the zone and being aggressive when rushes present themselves. If you are passive on your zone entries, passive on the odd-man breaks you do get, and stationary during in zone possession time, you probably get less offensive production.....even if you actually possess the puck more.

It's not just about having possession of the puck. It's about what each team does while they possess it.

 

[TealManV]

DW could get one tomorrow if he's willing to pay the price. This issue has been there for a long time now. Since he's dumped Ehrhoff, he's gone with far less than good options for the position. What makes anyone think anything will be different this time around?

I know he could get one tomorrow or even today! And I'm not saying he will. But there's so much negativity towards him and such a concrete feeling that he won't do it. I completely believe that dumping Ehrhoff was one of his biggest mistakes, but over the past few seasons what solid LD has really been available? Aside from Error this offseason (which I'm sure that bridge has been burned to the ground) none really come to mind. DW could be waiting for the right player ala Thornton and Boyle. I think the Heater trade was reactionary and he's been burned by that and the Havlat trade so he might be more cautious now than before. Even the Burns trade hasn't really worked out in the fashion most of us were wishing for and I love Burns. I'm hoping that he's not completely out of touch or delusional. And I'm doing my best to hold off my judgement until the end of summer.

 

[Barrie22]

Do you honestly believe he's stupid?

Yes i do, when it comes to certain aspects of his job. He is good at trading useless players like stuart, handzus and the likes. And pulling off the super star trades like thornton and boyle.

But when it comes to trades like the havlat and burns trades, he fails miserably at fixing one hole in the line up while opening up another.

He has never been able to figure out that you need depth through the entire line up. Not just in 1 position and not the other.

He has had either a good depth at forward and crap depth at defense (most years). And other years he has had good depth at defense but pretty crap depth at offense.

And some years he has had no depth any where in the line up.

Until he figures out trading defense for forwards and vice versa does not help unless you are dealing from a strength and receiving for a weakness. (Kings trading johnson for carter).

And until he figures out the best way to fix holes is through drafting (he might have figured this part out) and through free agency (he hasn't figured this part out yet).

Until then his teams will always be good regular season teams, but will never be able to do major damage in the playoffs.

Edit: and until he stops wasting roster spots on useless players like scott and brown and burish. Which he does every season. A 4th line does not play much that is true, but a 4th line should still be able to play with the puck. Which wilson built teams has never been able to do.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I know he could get one tomorrow or even today! And I'm not saying he will. But there's so much negativity towards him and such a concrete feeling that he won't do it. I completely believe that dumping Ehrhoff was one of his biggest mistakes, but over the past few seasons what solid LD has really been available? Aside from Error this offseason (which I'm sure that bridge has been burned to the ground) none really come to mind. DW could be waiting for the right player ala Thornton and Boyle. I think the Heater trade was reactionary and he's been burned by that and the Havlat trade so he might be more cautious now than before. Even the Burns trade hasn't really worked out in the fashion most of us were wishing for and I love Burns. I'm hoping that he's not completely out of touch or delusional. And I'm doing my best to hold off my judgement until the end of summer.

There are plenty of people that could've fit that spot but because of DW's natural conservative ways, it takes him out of the game before it really even begins. There have been plenty of free agents and plenty of people traded since 2009 that would've made sense.

I don't think DW is out of touch or delusional or anything like that. I just think that he's too conservative and is too willing to go for a patchwork solution to a spot like this and other depth positions over a more high-quality solution.

I think going the way of drafting is the ideal way of answering a lot of the depth issues which will take some time but between now and then, he's either got to rush the youth he has into those spots or pick someone up.

 

[Herschel]

Yes i do, when it comes to certain aspects of his job. He is good at trading useless players like stuart, handzus and the likes. And pulling off the super star trades like thornton and boyle.

But when it comes to trades like the havlat and burns trades, he fails miserably at fixing one hole in the line up while opening up another.

He has never been able to figure out that you need depth through the entire line up. Not just in 1 position and not the other.

He has had either a good depth at forward and crap depth at defense (most years). And other years he has had good depth at defense but pretty crap depth at offense.

And some years he has had no depth any where in the line up.

Until he figures out trading defense for forwards and vice versa does not help unless you are dealing from a strength and receiving for a weakness. (Kings trading johnson for carter).

And until he figures out the best way to fix holes is through drafting (he might have figured this part out) and through free agency (he hasn't figured this part out yet).

Until then his teams will always be good regular season teams, but will never be able to do major damage in the playoffs.

Edit: and until he stops wasting roster spots on useless players like scott and brown and burish. Which he does every season. A 4th line does not play much that is true, but a 4th line should still be able to play with the puck. Which wilson built teams has never been able to do.

No team has depth every where

 

[TealManV]

There are plenty of people that could've fit that spot but because of DW's natural conservative ways, it takes him out of the game before it really even begins. There have been plenty of free agents and plenty of people traded since 2009 that would've made sense.

I don't think DW is out of touch or delusional or anything like that. I just think that he's too conservative and is too willing to go for a patchwork solution to a spot like this and other depth positions over a more high-quality solution.

I think going the way of drafting is the ideal way of answering a lot of the depth issues which will take some time but between now and then, he's either got to rush the youth he has into those spots or pick someone up.

Those are very valid points, PF. And I've been frustrated by the half measures the past few seasons with Stuart, Hannan, Wallin, Huskins, Vandy, etc. I really only believe that Error this offseason and Kaleta last offseason would have actually filled that hole.

Although I agree that DW can be very conservative in his dealings, I think he was aggressive in both the Boyle and Burns trades. It really tough to gauge how conservative he is without knowing the offers he's made, if any, on some of these players. I do feel strongly that he'll make another trade of two this summer. Whether it's just clearing out Kennedy, Burish or Nemo, or making a big splash. IF DW is aware of that hole on the left side, I prefer him to target players on cap strapped teams; Leddy, Oduya, Krug and Coburn. Ideally I'd love for him to make a move for both Krug and R. Smith from the Bruins but I know that won't happen.

 

[Gilligans Island]

Those are very valid points, PF. And I've been frustrated by the half measures the past few seasons with Stuart, Hannan, Wallin, Huskins, Vandy, etc. I really only believe that Error this offseason and Kaleta last offseason would have actually filled that hole.

Although I agree that DW can be very conservative in his dealings, I think he was aggressive in both the Boyle and Burns trades. It really tough to gauge how conservative he is without knowing the offers he's made, if any, on some of these players. I do feel strongly that he'll make another trade of two this summer. Whether it's just clearing out Kennedy, Burish or Nemo, or making a big splash. IF DW is aware of that hole on the left side, I prefer him to target players on cap strapped teams; Leddy, Oduya, Krug and Coburn. Ideally I'd love for him to make a move for both Krug and R. Smith from the Bruins but I know that won't happen.

Is Coburn available?

Sekera last offseason is a definite miss, too.

 

[TealManV]

Is Coburn available?

Sekera last offseason is a definite miss, too.

I'm not sure about Coburn, that was pure speculation on my part. Just looking at which teams are in a bind and which players would fit our need.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

I really think we should wait to commit final judgement of the off season until we see how the Sharks come out of camp. Maybe we sign the defenseman who fills the need. Perhaps a move with Niemi or maybe a rookie or two look like studs in camp and they get a shot and they actually look like they can do it.

Or none of that and Brown and Burish skate every night with Irwin and Hannan out there and then, WTF?

But can we give a while?

 

[Gene Parmesan]

I really think we should wait to commit final judgement of the off season until we see how the Sharks come out of camp. Maybe we sign the defenseman who fills the need. Perhaps a move with Niemi or maybe a rookie or two look like studs in camp and they get a shot and they actually look like they can do it.

Or none of that and Brown and Burish skate every night with Irwin and Hannan out there and then, WTF?

But can we give a while?

That's what my mindset is.

 

[hohosaregood]

I really think we should wait to commit final judgement of the off season until we see how the Sharks come out of camp. Maybe we sign the defenseman who fills the need. Perhaps a move with Niemi or maybe a rookie or two look like studs in camp and they get a shot and they actually look like they can do it.

Or none of that and Brown and Burish skate every night with Irwin and Hannan out there and then, WTF?

But can we give a while?

We say that but the biases are formed/forming even if you wanna be level headed. Some just think that DW's been too stupid/crazy to give him a chance of expectations of a good future. I do think he's been acting like a crazy person but I'm gonna wait on final judgement too.

 

[TealManV]

I really think we should wait to commit final judgement of the off season until we see how the Sharks come out of camp. Maybe we sign the defenseman who fills the need. Perhaps a move with Niemi or maybe a rookie or two look like studs in camp and they get a shot and they actually look like they can do it.

Or none of that and Brown and Burish skate every night with Irwin and Hannan out there and then, WTF?

But can we give a while?

+1

This is how I'm trying to approach it as well.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I really think we should wait to commit final judgement of the off season until we see how the Sharks come out of camp. Maybe we sign the defenseman who fills the need. Perhaps a move with Niemi or maybe a rookie or two look like studs in camp and they get a shot and they actually look like they can do it.

Or none of that and Brown and Burish skate every night with Irwin and Hannan out there and then, WTF?

But can we give a while?

Even then it's tough to come to a conclusion with real conviction because they reset expectations. They've pretty much laid it out there that they're going to be a playoff team that doesn't do much damage at that point. So even if they don't address it at all and things play out exactly like that, they've technically met expectations. My beef with the LD spot is only that it has been there a while and they're fairly reactive about it and have just been getting patchwork solutions and if things play out like most anticipate, it will be rushing a prospect into the position. Whether it works out obviously remains to be seen.

 

[Irbes Mask]

I really think we should wait to commit final judgement of the off season until we see how the Sharks come out of camp. Maybe we sign the defenseman who fills the need. Perhaps a move with Niemi or maybe a rookie or two look like studs in camp and they get a shot and they actually look like they can do it.

Or none of that and Brown and Burish skate every night with Irwin and Hannan out there and then, WTF?

But can we give a while?

But then there's nothing to post about!

 

[sr228]

We say that but the biases are formed/forming even if you wanna be level headed. Some just think that DW's been too stupid/crazy to give him a chance of expectations of a good future. I do think he's been acting like a crazy person but I'm gonna wait on final judgement too.

Yep, key word there is 'been'. He's made some good moves, some really not good moves and said some highly questionable (and some really dumb) things so far, at least in my opinion.

However, none of that tells anyone anything about what he might do next.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

But then there's nothing to post about!

…a moderator can dream, right?

 

[hohosaregood]

Yep, key word there is 'been'. He's made some good moves, some really not good moves and said some highly questionable (and some really dumb) things so far, at least in my opinion.

However, none of that tells anyone anything about what he might do next.

I don't really think his bad moves have been super bad. I mean Scott is far from the best signing but it allows flexibility in a way that overpaying a bigger name would not allow. His inactivity is probably the worst thing but I think he was probably working with the expectation of eventually having the prospects come in and not many FAs looking for a short term right now.

 

[sr228]

I don't really think his bad moves have been super bad. I mean Scott is far from the best signing but it allows flexibility in a way that overpaying a bigger name would not allow. His inactivity is probably the worst thing but I think he was probably working with the expectation of eventually having the prospects come in and not many FAs looking for a short term right now.

I think Brown, Scott, Haley and keeping Sommer are all horrible moves. 3 of them are considered by many to be small or not mean much to the NHL roster but I hate the line of thinking behind all 3 of those player signings.

And I think everyone knows how I feel about Sommer.

His inactivity in FA is nothing new and it's never really bothered me all that much.