Wendel Clark Trade to Quebec in 94-The Toronto Perspective/Reasoning

Jim MacDonald

Registered User
Oct 7, 2017
703
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Hey everyone

I wanted to be educated from Leaf fans, Wendel Clark fans and of course those knowledgeable of the trade of Clark to Quebec in 94. Clark scores 46 goals in 93-94 (a career high), a beloved Captain of the team, fan favorite etc.....I'm kinda surprised I never hear/read about any fan uproar/anger of Clark being dealt? I know it worked out well getting a young Mats Sundin in hindsight, but I just wonder if Leaf fans and others in the hockey world were shocked at the time? Was there any "behind the scenes" stuff that contributed? (e.g. contract issues, problems with coaching/management, injury concerns) or was this simply Cliff Fletcher willing to upset a portion of the fan base (assuming some got upset) knowing just who he would be getting in Sundin? Look forward to the knowledge/feedback/opinions as always! Thanks-Jim
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Oh man. Yes we were shocked. Yes we were hurt. Yes, we thought the heart and soul of the team was ripped out. We pined and cried for Wendel to come back until he finally did almost 2 years later. And even though he wasn't quite as great, we loved what he did for another season and a quarter.

I was 14 when we got him back, and there's nothing that I remember more about that season as a fan, than the growing anticipation of a trade announcement about Clark, I just knew it was coming. The whole hockey world seemed to buzz about it or at least Leafs Nation did. We all wanted it to happen, and it seems nobody cared what it would cost either, we just had to get him back whatever it took.

In retrospect, the real heart and soul of the team was Doug Gilmour. And, we got Mats Sundin for 14 years, so it's pretty hard to complain about the trade looking back on it after all these years. It was an excellent trade, one of the best ones the leafs ever made. I can't think of a better example of selling high.
 

GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
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Brampton, ON
There's been plenty of discussion on this trade.

Clark was a fan favorite and pretty much at his peak when the trade was made, but he was also broken down physically because of his style. Fletcher traded him for a younger, better, less worn down asset. Some Leafs fans didn't like the trade and some still don't, but if you take the emotion out of it, it was a smart move.
 

Jim MacDonald

Registered User
Oct 7, 2017
703
180
Those are the kind of trades that hurt the fans emotionally in the short-term, but that make the team way better in the long-term.

After the trade:

Clark
195 points

Sundin
1015 points

Wow...as a guy who can appreciate statistics/numbers etc. This is VERY interesting and a cool perspective Panther. Thanks!
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
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Those are the kind of trades that hurt the fans emotionally in the short-term, but that make the team way better in the long-term.

After the trade:

Clark
195 points

Sundin
1015 points

Theres more to life than numbers Young Man. And unless you claim to be a Seer, who's to say what Clark "might" have laid down had he not had his heart ripped out with that idiotic trade.... And Sundin.... Aint that fancy..... What did he ever actually accomplish for the club itself? Cliff Fletcher has been & always will be to me at least a narcissistic self absorbed FAKE. A Hockey Hustler. Opportunistic Sleazeball.
 

GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
9,919
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Brampton, ON
Theres more to life than numbers Young Man. And unless you claim to be a Seer, who's to say what Clark "might" have laid down had he not had his heart ripped out with that idiotic trade.... And Sundin.... Aint that fancy..... What did he ever actually accomplish for the club itself? Cliff Fletcher has been & always will be to me at least a narcissistic self absorbed FAKE. A Hockey Hustler. Opportunistic Sleazeball.

Do you think they would have won the Cup with Clark in '95? I doubt it. He was a warrior, but Sundin was a better player.
 

streitz

Registered User
Jul 22, 2018
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I wouldn't of traded him personally because he seemed like the type of guy you let retire for the franchise.


Did the trade turn out well for the leafs? Probably but still.
 

MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
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Sylvain Lefevre ended up being the bigger piece of the deal, I remember him playing huge minutes with the Avs cup run.

What did he ever actually accomplish for the club itself?

2 eastern conference finals, not to dissimilar to Clark run.

Has for the trade, could have been an horrible disaster for the Nordiques, but they got Lemieux in a 3 team trade (with Steve Thomas) if a remember correctly, with Lemieux they trade Nolan for Ozolinsh and they win the cup and are well happy. Still the parallel universe in which they keep Sundin/Sakic/Nolan/Forsberg together could have been quite something.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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Sylvain Lefevre ended up being the bigger piece of the deal, I remember him playing huge minutes with the Avs cup run.

2 eastern conference finals, not to dissimilar to Clark run.

Has for the trade, could have been an horrible disaster for the Nordiques, but they got Lemieux in a 3 team trade (with Steve Thomas) if a remember correctly, with Lemieux they trade Nolan for Ozolinsh and they win the cup and are well happy. Still the parallel universe in which they keep Sundin/Sakic/Nolan/Forsberg together could have been quite something.

lefebvre might indeed have been a more important player on that '96 avs team than lemieux. at the very least, it's close and maybe claude poking the bear puts lefebvre, a very good defensive 1a on a team that really needed one, ahead.

and i don't think it was lemieux that made nolan expendable, it was deadmarsh clicking on a line with sakic and kamensky to start the '96 season. re: the nords/avs point of view, ima dust this off again—


here's a timeline that gives maybe some more context for that trade:

april, 1993: ridiculously skilled but very green team makes a historic jump in the standings, is up two games to zero in the playoffs, then proceeds to lose four straight to the canadiens, who have much more experience... plus the greatest goalie of all time. coach/GM pierre pagé singles out sundin and andrei kovalenko as two guys who seemed too happy to just be there.





defense corps is steve duchesne, a very young adam foote, curtis leschyshyn, craig wolanin, alexei gusarov, kerry huffman, and david karpa. hardly a murderer's row.

starting goalie is ron hextall, who did not acquit himself well in the losses. former goalie of the future stephane fiset starting to run out of chances.

draft day, 1993: drafts jocelyn thibault, considered by some to be the best goalie prospect since sean burke/jimmy waite to be new goalie of the future. trades hextall to move from 23rd to 13th and draft rugged WHL winger adam deadmarsh.

summer, 1993: contract negotiations with PMD steve duchesne, coming off a career 82 point season, stall.

fall, 1994: pagé rushes thibault into the league, splitting duties between him and fiset. begins the season without duchesne, hence no PMD. owen nolan gets injured for the season on the sixth game of the season. team stumbles out of the gate, with just five wins in october and three in november.

january, 1994: quebec trades holdout steve duchesne, coming off a career 82 point season, for three tough and very defensive-minded players: ron sutter (who had tonnes of playoff experience with the flyers), bob bassen, and garth butcher.

may, 1994: after a disastrous step back season where the team failed to make the playoffs, pierre pagé is fired. marc crawford hired as coach and more importantly pierre lacroix hired as GM.

draft day, 1994: two trades. sundin out, wendel clark in; butcher out, sylvain lefebvre in; ron sutter out, uwe krupp in. also trades down on three draft picks: todd warriner (former #4) for landon wilson (former #19); #9 to #12 (i.e., brett lindros for wade belak); #10 to #22 (i.e., nolan baumgartner for jeff kealty).

the moral of the story? the '93 team lost because there were lots and lots and lots of high picks (nolan, sundin, leschyshyn, ricci) and other young scoring hotshots (sakic, kamensky, rucinsky, kovalenko), but very little toughness and almost no experience. the three guys they got back had been to the third round a combined five times in the previous two seasons, the two defensemen averaged 6'4, 220 lbs between them, and wendel clark played a level of toughness and urgency that the team had previously lacked.

what did they lose? an aging garth butcher, who was replaced by two big, tough, steady defensemen in their primes; two more top ten draft picks they didn't need; and two young high picks. one of the young high picks was a bust (warriner), the other was a future hall of famer, pierre pagé's whipping boy mats sundin.

even the draft picks all signaled a new directions: wilson, belak (RIP), and kealty were all big useless plugs. but you win some (deadmarsh) and you lose some.

may, 1995: after a bounce back regular season, with sakic and nolan among the league leaders in points and goals, respectively; forsberg as advertised and scoring at above a point/game pace to win the calder; and team finishing 2nd overall in the standings (center depth is sakic, forsberg, ricci; RW depth is nolan, scott young, kovalenko, and rookie deadmarsh. so who needed sundin, anyway?), the team in its last season in quebec loses to the rangers in the first round. thibault did okay and flashed a lot of promise, but fiset, who was the presumptive starter, just wasn't good enough.

october, 1995: three things happen: 1. wendel clark is traded for reigning conn smythe winner and two-time stanley cup champion claude lemieux, 2. adam deadmarsh clicks on a line with sakic and kamensky, and 3. owen nolan, now a luxury due to deadmarsh's emergence, is traded to fill the steve duchesne hole that had been vacant for two years.

december, 1995: after a long string of trades beginning with the lindros one where they kept trading one great thing for multiple lesser things to plug some holes, lacroix does the opposite: thibault, rucinsky, and kovalenko for patrick roy. and rejean houle even threw in mike keane so he could make the french-speaking pierre turgeon captain. avalanche too green? sakic doesn't know how to win? enter patrick roy, claude lemieux, mike keane, and sylvain lefebvre.

i think what all this tells us is that the sundin trade was really just the most extreme case in a long run from '93 to '96 where that quebec/colorado team didn't have enough experience, wasn't good enough in its own end, wasn't tough enough, didn't have a PMD, and didn't have the greatest goalie ever and then got all those things. then it won the stanley cup. mission accomplished.
 

puckpilot

Registered User
Oct 23, 2016
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From what I remember, Clark was injury prone with a bad back. Heart kept writing checks his body couldn't cash. From a neutral fan's perspective, there were serious doubts about whether Clark would remain healthy enough to repeat that 46 goal performance. Heck, there were serious doubts about how long his career would last given the state of his back.

So when Clark got traded, it was a bit of a surprise, but from what I remember, it was common knowledge that the Nords/Avs were in the market to get tougher, and they had one of three chips to play in the form of three young centermen named, Sakic, Sundin, and Forsberg. Forsberg wasn't in the league yet, but was expected to do big things. On top of that they also had Mike Ricci, a young centerman that also had lots of potential. So there was a question of where they would find the ice time for all of them.

So from the Nords/Avs franchise perspective they could overpay and take a risk on someone like Clark.

As for fans getting upset, I don't remember any uproar that made the news where I live. But at the moment the trade was made, every hockey fan knew that Toronto was making out like bandits and had traded Clark at peak value.
 
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c9777666

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Aug 31, 2016
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How much do you think Toronto's playoff loss to Vancouver played a role in that trade?
 

Jim MacDonald

Registered User
Oct 7, 2017
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How much do you think Toronto's playoff loss to Vancouver played a role in that trade?

I never heard/read anything personally about Clark having a really bad series versus the Canucks, but an interesting question nonetheless!
 

streitz

Registered User
Jul 22, 2018
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FerrisRox

"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Sep 17, 2003
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But at the moment the trade was made, every hockey fan knew that Toronto was making out like bandits and had traded Clark at peak value.

There's no question Toronto won this deal in terms of talent in/talent out, but it is often framed in a way to make the deal look even more slanted in Toronto's favour.

People talk about this trade as if it were Mats Sundin for Wendel Clark, but from the Nordiques perspective, they dealt Mats Sundin for Wendel Clark and Sylvain Lefevbre. There are other parts to the deal, but those pieces are the key ones. Many Toronto fans seemed to frame it as Clark for Sundin, Butcher for Lefevbre and Warriner for Wilson with a swap of draft picks.

Butcher was all but done as an NHL defenseman when this trade was made and value wise, Lefevbre for Butcher is even more lopsided than Sundin for Clark. When the Nords turned Clark into Claude Lemieux, they dramatically improved that asset as well. Suddenly Sundin for Lemieux and Lefevbre doesn't seem bad at all. The Nords ended up adding two hugely important pieces to their Stanley Cup Championship team and traded from a position of strength (centre) to address positions of need (defence and playoff experience.)
 
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Big Phil

Registered User
Nov 2, 2003
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Okay, Leaf fan here..............look, it was a great trade for us. I always thought on these boards the consensus is that it was a bad trade for Quebec at the time. I know we all drool at the prospect of seeing what a Sakic/Forsberg/Sundin team would look like.

Look at the 1994 season for Clark. It is by far, by far, his best NHL season. Look at what he did prior to that, nothing comes close. Heck, he was injured, sometimes for huge portions of the season, prior to that. Yes he was a huge asset because he did other things that didn't show up on the scoresheet. He fought, he hit like a truckload of bricks and there was an x-factor to him everytime he stepped on the ice. But he was hurt all the time and even though he was 27 years old he was basically like 35 years old by 1994. And even so he missed 20 games that season too.

Sundin on the other hand was young, talented, big and was a center. Had 85 points that year. Had 114 the year before. What GM wouldn't have pulled the trigger?

Also, look at how it panned out. Sundin barely missed a game for the Leafs. Clark bounced around the NHL for the next 6 years and actually ending up coming back to the Leafs twice, where he finally retired in 2000. He retired at 33 years old and he looked 45. Like it or not, it was a smart trade. Sundin had a point per game every year, he was like clockwork.

The repercussions of Sundin coming to Toronto for fan favourite Clark weren't great. He never really got the benefit of the doubt from some of the fans, or the media. While always polite and patient while answering questions there was always that tag on him that "We'll never win as long as he is captain." I thought it was hogwash. Sundin was loyal, he was elite, he never complained a day in his life on that team. It wasn't a far tag on him.
 
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Jim MacDonald

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Oct 7, 2017
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Okay, Leaf fan here..............look, it was a great trade for us. I always thought on these boards the consensus is that it was a bad trade for Quebec at the time. I know we all drool at the prospect of seeing what a Sakic/Forsberg/Sundin team would look like.

Look at the 1994 season for Clark. It is by far, by far, his best NHL season. Look at what he did prior to that, nothing comes close. Heck, he was injured, sometimes for huge portions of the season, prior to that. Yes he was a huge asset because he did other things that didn't show up on the scoresheet. He fought, he hit like a truckload of bricks and there was an x-factor to him everytime he stepped on the ice. But he was hurt all the time and even though he was 27 years old he was basically like 35 years old by 1994. And even so he missed 20 games that season too.

Sundin on the other hand was young, talented, big and was a center. Had 85 points that year. Had 114 the year before. What GM wouldn't have pulled the trigger?

Also, look at how it panned out. Sundin barely missed a game for the Leafs. Clark bounced around the NHL for the next 6 years and actually ending up coming back to the Leafs twice, where he finally retired in 2000. He retired at 33 years old and he looked 45. Like it or not, it was a smart trade. Sundin had a point per game every year, he was like clockwork.

The repercussions of Sundin coming to Toronto for fan favourite Clark weren't great. He never really got the benefit of the doubt from some of the fans, or the media. While always polite and patient while answering questions there was always that tag on him that "We'll never win as long as he is captain." I thought it was hogwash. Sundin was loyal, he was elite, he never complained a day in his life on that team. It wasn't a far tag on him.


Very interesting to learn how the fans/media questioned the team's ability to succeed while Clark wore the "C." Just like Stevie Y here until he won.....that's kinda crazy to learn about this!
 

Tarantula

Hanging around the web
Aug 31, 2017
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Sundin seemed like a bit of a whipping boy here in Toronto, he wasn't a hot spark plug as Clarke was, and feisty as Gilmour seemed. Those two were and still are worshiped here. Many a Leaf fan never gave Sundin his credit due, doubted his fire and commitment, unfairly and misplaced in comparison to Wendel and Killer.
 

TheTotalPackage

Registered User
Sep 14, 2006
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Leaf fan here saying that Clark was overrated, trading Clark for Sundin was one of the team's all-time best moves, and the trade to bring back Clark was absolutely disastrous and one of the team's worst.
 
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Jim MacDonald

Registered User
Oct 7, 2017
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You might want to reread that entire paragraph

*laughing and shaking head* indeed I'll eat crow....It was Sundin Big Phillip was talking about and not Mr. Wendel.....I blame this cold/allergies I have! lol! I'm glad my mistake was caught as it's interesting Sundin got a bad rap. It can't feel very good if the fans/media don't have faith in you to lead the team ya know?
 

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