Wendel Clark Trade to Quebec in 94-The Toronto Perspective/Reasoning

Johnny Engine

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Jul 29, 2009
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Fine, bad GMing, I get it, can't win em all, and everything like that. But why is a trade like this even on the table, how does it even come close to happening? Why, in a non-salary cap world, does a team that's comfortably in a playoff spot, decide to dump their number 4-5 defenseman who's young, tough and built for playoff battles, and not get anyone back in return? This has to be unprecedented. Even if he didn't figure in their plans, what's wrong with a wealthy team like the Leafs keeping him on hand as a number 7 so they don't have to risk putting Chris McAllister on the ice?
IIRC, there were contract issues with Smith. Certainly a failure either way.
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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Very interesting to learn how the fans/media questioned the team's ability to succeed while Clark wore the "C." Just like Stevie Y here until he won.....that's kinda crazy to learn about this!

It was an unfair assessment. They certainly could have won with him as captain. They had fine teams during that Quinn era and they never gave Sundin the decent support or wingers he needed. People forget, that just like with Clark and Gilmour the Leafs with Sundin made the final 4 twice as well.
 

Big Phil

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I'm very interested to get your thoughts on why bringing him back was so disastrous?

Lots, as mentioned Roberto Luongo ended up as part of the trade. That's horrible. Also, it had "sentimental trade" written all over it. The Leafs gave him away again and then re-acquired him. They never made up their mind.

To play a little more like he was 6'5"? Sundin was a very good and very consistent player but he didn't ignite the team around him like a Gilmour or Clark.

A lot of people noticed how Sundin played internationally and wished he would play like that for the Leafs.

There are a couple sides to this I think. Yeah being as big as he was you expect more physical play, more of an edge. Someone like Malkin for instance isn't a heavyweight, but he'll lose his temper, he'll jab someone with his stick, etc. He'll play with a bit of an edge and he has famously dropped his mitts at times. He's fought 14 times in his career while Sundin did it just 4 times, twice with the Leafs. Those two times were Bourque in 1998 and against Gary Roberts in 1996. The Bourque fight I can't find a video on it but it looks like it was just mixed up in a bit of a line brawl. Here is the Roberts video and this might explain why he didn't fight a whole lot, he was terrible at it.



So that was what the fans missed with Clark and wanted from Sundin. In reality, he could have dropped the mitts a time or two in his career just to show people that he wasn't going to take it. But he was a terrible fighter. Hard to believe with his size but he was. So I think when it came to his size he did other things well by taking advantage of it. He was incredibly hard to knock off the puck, he had that wide stride to protect the puck and he was so big he was hard to overpower as well. He used that stuff to his advantage because of his size, he just didn't fight or hit much.

As for the Sweden thing, it was always a running joke that he performed well for Sweden and not the same for the Leafs. But maybe the load was taken off of him with Sweden a bit? You've got Forsberg garnering a lot of attention as well so that helps open things up.
 

Big Phil

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Part of me says Sundin should have fought more because he only had 4 fights in his NHL career, two with the Leafs. Gretzky had 5 in his career to put that into perspective. Even Ovechkin has had 7 in his career. But McDavid hasn't fought since his junior days and has none in the NHL. Crosby only 9.

If you aren't a big cheapshot artist and going around playing as such then you don't need to fight. Mike Bossy fought once. So I guess you can say it just wasn't Sundin's game.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Part of me says Sundin should have fought more because he only had 4 fights in his NHL career, two with the Leafs. Gretzky had 5 in his career to put that into perspective. Even Ovechkin has had 7 in his career. But McDavid hasn't fought since his junior days and has none in the NHL. Crosby only 9.

If you aren't a big cheapshot artist and going around playing as such then you don't need to fight. Mike Bossy fought once. So I guess you can say it just wasn't Sundin's game.

Tough Act to follow uh Big Guy?.... Red Horner on down..... Poor Mats. Like following the Beatles or Led Zeppelin on stage... And no, obviously, a "non-combatant". To several generations that would = "Soft". And "soft he was"... Softer than Charmin....

And I'm fine with that actually. Guy none the less a superb hockey player. Leafs had less than Zero chance of doing any real damage with Fakers like Domi & Tucker incapable of skating & chewing gum at the same time... beyond dysfunctional Board, Management.....

We got us a lot a Morons on our team Phil. Multi-generational. Canny ney hear the Duelling Banjos Son?
 
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Big Phil

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Tough Act to follow uh Big Guy?.... Red Horner on down..... Poor Mats. Like following the Beatles or Led Zeppelin on stage... And no, obviously, a "non-combatant". To several generations that would = "Soft". And "soft he was"... Softer than Charmin....

And I'm fine with that actually. Guy none the less a superb hockey player. Leafs had less than Zero chance of doing any real damage with Fakers like Domi & Tucker incapable of skating & chewing gum at the same time... beyond dysfunctional Board, Management.....

We got us a lot a Morons on our team Phil. Multi-generational. Canny ney hear the Duelling Banjos Son?

Domi famously beat Sundin in the Maple Leafs skills competition at the fastest skater event one year. Always a bit of a joke............but Tie was actually surprisingly quick.

As for fighting, I have never equated a player that didn't fight with being soft per se. I will often say on here that the lack of fighting in the NHL is a product of the lack of passion and intensity in this day and age but there are a laundry list of players who I would never call wimps that fought just as infrequently as Sundin during their careers.

Dave Keon same amount of career fights as Sundin - 4. Can people believe Trottier only fought 8 times? Butch Goring........0. Guy Lafleur had 9 fights and only one from his 5th year onwards. Ironically Guy had 11 fights in his high scoring final year in the QMJHL in 1971. John Leclair had 2. Syl Apps 0. The list goes on, lots of great players that almost never fought that no one thinks was soft. Johnny Bucyk fought twice in his long career and was regarded as a heavy hitter.

So Sundin didn't HAVE to fight, he just replaced a guy who would have fought a lion if he had to (and he did with Probert, McSorley, etc.) and a guy who almost never lost a fight either. Clark in contrast fought 155 times in his career.
 
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The Panther

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I can't fathom that it's 2018 and we're talking like it was the '70s about how many times Sundin fought another player! Color me disappointed...!

Number of Leafs' winning seasons with each player:
10 -- Sundin
2 -- Clark

Number of times player led the Leafs in scoring:
12 -- Sundin
0 -- Clark

5-on-5:
+99 Sundin
- 91 Clark

Wait! Clark was a better sniper, right? Nope:
0.428 GPG Sundin (and mostly in dead-puck era)
0.427 GPG Clark


And, of course:
Chances that each player will be healthy and ready to play each night:
99% Sundin
0.00002% Clark


These two players are in different Leagues. Sundin was a 1st overall who entirely lived up to expectations, was the most consistent forward ever, and is arguably the greatest Leaf of all time. Clark was a 1st overall who excited the fanbase for a couple of years of horribly losing hockey, and had one great season (1993-94), but otherwise has to be considered a disappointment at 1st overall.

For perspective, remember that 1st overall 'bust', Joe Murphy in 1986? Clark scored 36 more points than him in 14 more games.
 
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GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
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How many times has Matthews fought? I don't remember a single fight involving him. I know hockey is a little "softer" now than it was even in the 90s and 00s, but really, who gives an actual ***** how often a first line centre who is paid to score fights?
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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I can't fathom that it's 2018 and we're talking like it was the '70s about how many times Sundin fought another player! Color me disappointed...!

Number of Leafs' winning seasons with each player:
10 -- Sundin
2 -- Clark

Number of times player led the Leafs in scoring:
12 -- Sundin
0 -- Clark

5-on-5:
+99 Sundin
- 91 Clark

Wait! Clark was a better sniper, right? Nope:
0.428 GPG Sundin (and mostly in dead-puck era)
0.427 GPG Clark


And, of course:
Chances that each player will be healthy and ready to play each night:
99% Sundin
0.00002% Clark


These two players are in different Leagues. Sundin was a 1st overall who entirely lived up to expectations, was the most consistent forward ever, and is arguably the greatest Leaf of all time. Clark was a 1st overall who excited the fanbase for a couple of years of horribly losing hockey, and had one great season (1993-94), but otherwise has to be considered a disappointment at 1st overall.

For perspective, remember that 1st overall 'bust', Joe Murphy in 1986? Clark scored 36 more points than him in 14 more games.

I don't think anyone, including me, thinks Clark was near as good of a player. The proof is in the pudding. I for one am glad the trade happened, especially as a Leaf fan.

Two things fans love though is a tough guy scoring a beauty goal (McCarty in 1997 Cup final) or a skilled player dropping the mitts and getting angry (Mario in 2004 World Cup, Iggy/Lecavalier 2004).

I mentioned earlier Sundin was a horrible fighter to begin with and it may not have served him well anyways to drop the mitts but if there was a complaint I had about Sundin over his career it is that there could have been a time that I would have liked to have seen him spark the team a bit with a big hit or losing his temper. He just wasn't that type of player and used his size for other things like protecting the puck.

Other than that I agree with you, the Leafs got the far superior player. Sundin fighting might have been as ugly as seeing Hal Gill fight (remember that?). A player that big losing badly to players much smaller than him, it was not a pretty sight.
 

ShelbyZ

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Apr 8, 2015
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He retired at 33 years old and he looked 45.

That really hit the nail on the head for what soon to be 12 year old Red Wings fan me thought of Clark when he was acquired in Ken Hollands 1999 trade deadline frenzy. At the time I only really followed the Red Wings and didn't have access to the internet, so the only other players I really knew well outside my home team were household names and (of course) guys from the Avalanche.

I remember watching Clark's first game as a Wing and seeing him during warm ups with his Wilford Brimley-ish facial hair and male pattern baldness. I thought that he must've been some grizzled old timer even older than some of the Wings geezers like Murphy, Larionov, Chelios and Macoun. Since he was pretty much out of hockey the next season, I held onto that thought for a long time until I recently noticed he wasn't even 33 when the Wings acquired him...
 

Nick Hansen

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Sep 28, 2017
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If I'm not misinformed this is Wendel Clark on his draft day:

ClBRiZkVYAE7Fp6.jpg
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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That really hit the nail on the head for what soon to be 12 year old Red Wings fan me thought of Clark when he was acquired in Ken Hollands 1999 trade deadline frenzy. At the time I only really followed the Red Wings and didn't have access to the internet, so the only other players I really knew well outside my home team were household names and (of course) guys from the Avalanche.

I remember watching Clark's first game as a Wing and seeing him during warm ups with his Wilford Brimley-ish facial hair and male pattern baldness. I thought that he must've been some grizzled old timer even older than some of the Wings geezers like Murphy, Larionov, Chelios and Macoun. Since he was pretty much out of hockey the next season, I held onto that thought for a long time until I recently noticed he wasn't even 33 when the Wings acquired him...

Clark was similar to someone like Lanny McDonald who never ever looked young. McDonald looked like he was 40 when he was 25. Something about handlebar mustaches or big bushy ones that age you. In a way it's good because if you see either of them today they don't look a whole lot different from their playing days. So you age well, you just never look young.

I guess the differences being Clark with his injuries played like an old man despite not even being 30 while McDonald was pretty good until his last couple of years.
 

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