In all fairness to the Hishon draft pick....we didn't know what O'Reilly was at that point. O'Reilly had just played as the 3rd/4th line center the year before and maybe management saw Hishon as the #2 guy that could play behind Duchene.
Pre-Game Talk: Week of Regrets (EDM, @SJ, @ANH, @LA)
- Thread starter tigervixxxen
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BoxOfChocolates
Registered User
- Mar 7, 2010
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Because having two small centres in your top six is a recipe for success in the west? If they did think that Im glad said management is no longer in power.
The Kingslayer
Registered User
I agree with this. I dont think anyone saw this out of ROR. I think most of us thought he would be a 35 point guy who would top out at 50 MAYBE. I think if Hishon didnt get his head smashed by Mcnabb none of us be questioning the pick. Wasnt Hishon killin it before that injury?
InjuredChoker
Registered User
i hope roy doesn't believe 100% in what he says in these interviews.
10 more (random) goals is worth about 2 wins.
detroit did last year and they had medicore team to begin with. avs are 0.500 against central so it hasn't hurt them that much.
10 more (random) goals is worth about 2 wins.
detroit did last year and they had medicore team to begin with. avs are 0.500 against central so it hasn't hurt them that much.
Ok I get what your saying but what I am saying is those discussions should take place behind closed doors. I agree with all of this if roy/sakic said that to hishon privately. I for one would not take offence to any of this either. However I would wish that roy would not share this publically while I am still employed by this team.
No matter what type of personality nobody likes to hear that they are a mistake and if that's how management feels I would respect their opinion and maybe agree, but I would hope for them to keep it to themselves and not make it public when there is no need for it. That's how I would feel at least
Detroit did make the playoffs but it was by the skin of their teeth in a much weaker division than what the Avs are in.
Chileiceman
Registered User
I feel like this is completely revisionist history. At the time of Hishon being drafted, ROR's offensive game or even his projected offensive upside was nowhere close to where it is now. This was before Meurs, Bourke, Blandisi, Collin Smith, etc. In 2010, we didn't have many small skilled forwards in the cupboard. We had Duchene and Stastny, yes. At the time most of us were scratching our heads primarily because he was not projected to go that high, not because we couldn't use a player of his skill or position. Who knew for how long Stastny was going to be an Av. And like I said before, they might have had him penciled in to convert him to a winger once he made the show until Stastny left. There are so many variables.
Then the following season he absolutely shreds up the OHL until the fateful hit in the Memorial Cup. He was looking to be a steal. If he hadn't got injured, I can guarantee you we wouldn't be having this conversation because he wouldn't have become a question mark. By now we would have had a clear idea of what he can bring to the table. And if after all that he's endured he is still showing flashes of elite skill while playing with plugs, I would bet almost anything that he would be even better if he had not lost 2 years of development.
Hindsight is 20/20. Obviously Bjugstad looks like a better pick now. But who knows what could have been. If Mackinnon endures a career threatening injury, would it be fair to pile on Roykic and say we should have picked Barkov? No, that'd be dumb.
Forgetting about happened in 2010, the question now becomes can this team use a player like Joey Hishon? Assuming that he definitively shows that he is NHL-ready, the answer is a resounding heck yes. I would take his skill-set over Cliche or John Mitchell's as a 3C any day, assuming MacK stays as a winger and ROR stays with the team. I imagine he could play the wing in the top 6 and look not lost. Could not be a worse option than McLeod or even what Mitchell is doing lately when moved up there.
MacK-ROR-Landy
McGinn-Duchene-Iggy
Tanguay-Hishon-Everberg
Mitchell-Winchester-McLeod/Bordy/Cliche/Rendulic
Doesn't look half bad to me.
It's not like Roy is just randomly bringing this up. We fans are always talking about how we want honest answers and some actual insight into what these guys are thinking instead of the cliche coach speak and question dodging. We can't get mad at the response. Roy obviously hates how we were building our organizational depth. And Hishon is a good example. We just used our top 2 picks in the previous draft on skill/finesse forwards, both of which skipped the whole "we're unsure if he will contribute" uncertainty. Now I'm not saying we should ignore those types all together just because we drafted those 2 the year before, but to use our #1 pick on another finesse/skill forward? That makes no sense. Mix it up some. These top picks are by far the most likely to contribute. Go after the skill/finesse forward in a later round. Now we are trying to turn Hishon into something he isn't, a bottom 6 defensive minded center, just to fit him in. When you just go for BPA and don't take into account your current personnel then you end up trying to fit a round peg in a square whole.
Freudian
Clearly deranged
- Jul 3, 2003
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Pracey drafted BPA. If Avs had ten centers and the next on the list was a center they drafted him. It would be better if Roy just said that he thinks you have to draft for long term needs as well.
I'm not sure it's particularly fruitful saying Avs shouldn't have drafted both Elliott and Barrie (especially seeing as the guy they drafted last of those turned out to be the gem) or Hishon. That turns the focus the wrong way. On the players still in the organization rather than the head scout not with the organization.
I'm not sure it's particularly fruitful saying Avs shouldn't have drafted both Elliott and Barrie (especially seeing as the guy they drafted last of those turned out to be the gem) or Hishon. That turns the focus the wrong way. On the players still in the organization rather than the head scout not with the organization.
Not revisionist theory at all. Sure, we didn't quite know what O'Reilly would turn into, but we knew he was a 3C at the very least and played a skilled oriented game (granted a defensive minded game, but one based on skill). We knew Duchene would be taking a spot for a long time as a finesse player. We had Staz, another similar forward for another 4 years. That's our 3 centers right there. From the very start it's, "well, maybe he can play wing". What if he doesn't adjust well? Lots of players don't. Why not draft an actual winger instead if that's the plan? Or "maybe he replaces Staz." What if we want to keep Staz through his prime? And why are we using a first round pick to replace someone four years down the road? A defender, maybe. But a forward? They should be brought along quicker than that.
I couldnt care less about Smith, Bourke, etc. Those guys were late picks and severe long shots. The entire draft of these types was ridiculous, but yeah, I'm not going to sweat the late round choices.
If he is able to play 3C, that's because that's the player we turned him into. He was drafted to be a scoring skilled winger. But we didn't need any more guys like that. So we have been having him focus on D so that he can play in a defensive role. Would have been better planning to have just drafted the defensive minded center in the beginning.
Chileiceman
Registered User
But when Hishon was drafted ROR was looking like the next Sami Pahlsson, not a 60 pt guy. On D, Kyle Quincey was looking like a solid pick-up, Ryan Wilson had come out of nowhere and seemed to have a fairly high ceiling, Kevin Shattenkirk was coming up, Barrie and Elliot looked promising. It was at forward or in net were prospect depth was lacking. Would you rather they drafted the future McLeod in the first round?
Avs_19
Registered User
- Jun 28, 2007
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Injuries, which Roy has no control over, are one of the reasons for not making the playoffs. That also brings the lack of depth and poor minor league system into focus, which is a result of bad drafting by the previous regime.
You know what, I can get behind that for now. Better have a kick ass offseason and start putting pieces of this plan into place though.
You know what, I can get behind that for now. Better have a kick ass offseason and start putting pieces of this plan into place though.
dahrougem2
Registered User
Well they arguably have, though. We haven't been excited about prospects like Bigras, Geertsen, and Bleackley in a long, long time. Siemens is being given proper development time in Lake Erie and not forced into NHL action. Everberg and Rendulic were depth Euro signings that both look like they could be steals. I'm sure there will be more under-the-radar free agent signings this summer that are to improve the depth of this team.
Think about it, if the previous regime was still in power, does anyone think we even hear of the names Dennis Everberg and Borna Rendulic? Not a chance. I think they have a plan in place and are going to carry on with this plan, having begun it with the 2013 draft.
Still disagree with injuries being a significant factor in us making the playoffs or not.
Our record against our division is:
Min - 1-4 - including truly embarrassing losses when healthy. There aren't enough bad words for how bad we were against the Wild this year. Disgusting.
Wpg - 1-3 - so far, but will likely lose the last one as well - Jets have pretty much completely owned us, healthy or otherwise, as well
Stl - 1-4 - Rinse and repeat
Nsh - 1-3 - so far - injuries or no, just like the rest, they are a better built team than us.
Chi - 2-2 - so far - We always play the Hawks well, so it is what it is.
Dal - 5-0 - At least that's something, but doesn't really make up for the other poor records against.
You can put every single injured player we have out back in the lineup and we probably still lose out to Min, Wpg, Stl, and Nsh.
If we want to compete, we need better depth players and at least two new quality defensemen.
Our record against our division is:
Min - 1-4 - including truly embarrassing losses when healthy. There aren't enough bad words for how bad we were against the Wild this year. Disgusting.
Wpg - 1-3 - so far, but will likely lose the last one as well - Jets have pretty much completely owned us, healthy or otherwise, as well
Stl - 1-4 - Rinse and repeat
Nsh - 1-3 - so far - injuries or no, just like the rest, they are a better built team than us.
Chi - 2-2 - so far - We always play the Hawks well, so it is what it is.
Dal - 5-0 - At least that's something, but doesn't really make up for the other poor records against.
You can put every single injured player we have out back in the lineup and we probably still lose out to Min, Wpg, Stl, and Nsh.
If we want to compete, we need better depth players and at least two new quality defensemen.
Chileiceman
Registered User
Then I imagine you must have been pretty pissed when the Avs picked MacKinnon, no? I mean oh noes a skilled centre. And by that time, we DID know that ROR was a bona fide offensive player in this league.
My point is that Hishon is in the predicament he is in because his development was stalled. At this point he isn't going to be a number 1 or 2 centre anywhere until he proves himself. If you run a top 9, which the Avs are capable of doing when healthy he could be able to play an offensive role. He's shown that he is competent defensively. Everberg, Tanguay or McGinn are miles better than Caron, Hamilton, Cliche or McLeod as linemates.
Had he not been injured obviously he'd have made the league sooner. And yes, decisions about positions would have had to been made, exactly like when MacKinnon was drafted. Now I'm not saying Hishon was a better prospect than MacKinnon, but the situations are fairly analogous. The Avs could have gone with Jones and I think that would have been a very reasonable choice at the time due to the team's needs, but they chose not to.
All I'm saying is that before he got injured, we were frothing at the mouth thinking about what this kid with magic hands was going to do for our team. He then lost two seasons. That's not his fault, nor the Avs organization's fault. And I don't think anyone stands to benefit by having Roy point fingers five years after the fact under such different circumstances.
Avs_19
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I like a lot of what they've done and they've put certain pieces of their plan into place but it's all about the defense for me and I'm still waiting to see what direction they go in there. I don't think it's as simple as just waiting for Bigras and it seems like Avs management feels the same way since they've tried to acquire top pairing/four defensemen.
Like I said, I can buy the injuries, depth, PP, etc talk for this season but it's still going to come back to how they fix the defense this offseason.
dahrougem2
Registered User
I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed this summer with the defence. There is certainly a need to upgrade it, but like Roy said a few weeks ago, they aren't going to go out and sign an older UFA player simply to be a stop-gap. Now, how much I agree with that is a different story because there are different types of stop-gaps. I'd love to sign Paul Martin but I'd hate to sign Johnny Oduya, but both fall under the same category.
Unless we can sign Andrej Sekera (personally I don't see him leaving L.A.), I think fans are going to be angry with the decisions made. I don't think Guenin or Redmond will be on the starting roster next season, but I also don't think we're going to find a bonafide 1st pairing partner for EJ through UFA/trade
LieutenantDangle
Barry McKockner
I'm not gonna point fingers at any individual member on this forum, but there are a lot of you looking at the topic of injuries in a fairly close-minded fashion. When looking at the impact of injuries to players like McGinn and Bordeleau (who between the two of them played a hand full of games this season) who were both part of the teams identity last season, you point to that individual player and say 'hey thats just a warm body that plays bottom 6 minutes game in and game out and they really don't have the skill to be a game changer. BUT, in reality you have to realize that the sum of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. It is NOT the skill of each individual player that drives the success of a hockey team, or any sports team for that matter, rather it is the skill of teammates playing together in unison with CHEMISTRY that leads to team success. Anyone with a brain and a working set of eyes could tell that this team had zero chemistry for the first month of regular season hockey, if not longer. Yes go ahead and point to Stastny leaving and a few new bodies working in and out of the lineup, but the fact that Duchene, unarguably our most potent offensive weapon last season, was being sent out on the ice with new line mates every damn game, even sometimes midgame and showing zero comfort or chemistry, and still you're going to say that these injuries aren't a huge factor playing into why our team was unsuccessful this season? That line of thought absolutely blows me away. On top of that even a 4th line player in Bordeleau played a big role in the chemistry our team had last season. Guys looked up to him because he had their back no matter what, and he actually invoked fear into the eyes of their competitors because they knew if they ****ed with any of his teammates he was gonna make them pay. Nobody is afraid of McCleod, he just doesn't play the same role.
tigervixxxen
Optimism=Delusional
Just in case anyone wanted some actual news in this thread Roy must have sent a smoke signal to the DP from California and said the last 3 home games will go Varly, Berra, Varly.
^ Good post LD.
Injuries are definitely a factor, especially seeing Cliche and McLeod play on the 3rd ****EN line. But it isn't the main one. It is probably 30% with the slow start of the beginning of the year where all the core players looked like trash taking 70%.
Injuries are definitely a factor, especially seeing Cliche and McLeod play on the 3rd ****EN line. But it isn't the main one. It is probably 30% with the slow start of the beginning of the year where all the core players looked like trash taking 70%.
My point isn't about Avs divisional record, even though we continually get dominated by Wild and Blues. I was talking about how hard the division is to gain any ground in. Avs before the Edmonton road trip had the best March record of any team, but yet all they did was pass on Dallas and make ground on the Sharks.
- Dec 2, 2007
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I'm glad there's other posters making their voice heard in this manner. It's ridiculous people think losing Bordeleau means nothing and the loss of McGinn isn't that impactful.
In my opinion losing McGinn hurt Duchy (whom had some chemistry with him) and our PP (McGinn was our best net front presence).
Avsboy
Registered User
- Dec 12, 2006
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Roy is turning into Therrien. Publically calling out a player like that is a stupid move.
I also don't think it was a bad pick since Hishon produced after being drafted. There's no way anyone could have predicted the injuries. It seems like Roy thinks larger means less injury prone and as such the team should draft based on size. He's the most flagrant size queen I've seen on the Avs in a while. And yet players like Siemens also got injured. So I'm not sure what Roy was thinking in that interview. Clearly there will be a drafting shift to larger players, but for no logical reason.
I also don't think it was a bad pick since Hishon produced after being drafted. There's no way anyone could have predicted the injuries. It seems like Roy thinks larger means less injury prone and as such the team should draft based on size. He's the most flagrant size queen I've seen on the Avs in a while. And yet players like Siemens also got injured. So I'm not sure what Roy was thinking in that interview. Clearly there will be a drafting shift to larger players, but for no logical reason.
How many of the losses were by more than 1 goal (not counting ENGs). I'd be willing to bet it's only 2 or 3 outside of the one big blow out by Minny and the December whipping by Winnipeg. Sure a loss is a loss. But at 1 goal, you never know who gets the bounce.
You make it sound like we got trounced in every one of our losses inside of the division.
Really? You think having Bordy or McGinn in the lineup changes things that much? We somehow manage to not get destroyed by the Wild, Jets, or Blues? I don't see it, but whatever.
IMO, losing Stastny hurt Duchene way more. Not having Staz to throw out there against the top guys on the other team hurt him. Also, as a result of Staz not being here, and Mack not ready to be a center, we have to move ROR back to center taking away the chemistry that they had that led to ROR having a career high in goal-scoring. And as a throw in, Duchene loses his best friend on the team. Don't know how much that would affect his game, but I doubt he was thrilled with it.
