NFL GDT: Week 5 - Part 2 - MNF conclusion

[What the Faulk]

Lol at calling Norman a zone corner. This is really the first year that he's played heavily in zone.

2016 Panthers:

 

[StreetHawk]

Imagine giving up on Cousins for Smith.

Obviously, Washington made the Smith deal earlier. But, looking back at the draft, they had pick #13, and the Raiders traded down from #10 to #15 for 2 extra third round picks.

If you're going to move off Cousins, might as well be taking a swing for the future. But, who would have guessed Rosen would fall to #10.

Washington has been decent, not terrible for a long time now. Not bad enough to secure a top pick and not good enough to go deep.

 

[m9]

Smith is a fine QB. He had a bad night and that WR core is one of the worst in the league.

I've been impressed by Cousins this year too - playing great.

 

[What the Faulk]

Obviously, Washington made the Smith deal earlier. But, looking back at the draft, they had pick #13, and the Raiders traded down from #10 to #15 for 2 extra third round picks.

If you're going to move off Cousins, might as well be taking a swing for the future. But, who would have guessed Rosen would fall to #10.

Washington has been decent, not terrible for a long time now. Not bad enough to secure a top pick and not good enough to go deep.

Washington needs to get some offensive players to build around. AP has played well, but he's getting up there in age. Chris Thompson is an explosive playmaker, but he's not an every down back. Doctson/Richardson/Crowder are interchangeably mediocre. Jordan Reed is a shell of himself and Vernon Davis is 34. They have a solid defense and offensive line, and Alex Smith can be good enough with the right help, but he doesn't have that.

 

[Elvis P]

If Brees played well in one more SB win, most people would realize he's better than Peyton.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Smith is a fine QB. He had a bad night and that WR core is one of the worst in the league.

I've been impressed by Cousins this year too - playing great.

On HF, quarterbacks are supposed to be perfect. I agree. Smith was off and hesitant from the start. He doesn't trust any of his receivers except for Vernon.

 

[What the Faulk]

If Brees played well in one more SB win, most people would realize he's better than Peyton.

He isn't though

 

[What the Faulk]

This happens so often. You have 4th and short. Why are you making it 4th and long?

 

[sigma six]

Smith is the wrong QB to pair with Paul Richardson (or vice versa). Glad they both got paid but PRich is most effective when streaking for distance.

 

[m9]

On HF, quarterbacks are supposed to be perfect. I agree. Smith was off and hesitant from the start. He doesn't trust any of his receivers except for Vernon.

I think people on here wrongly assume that the QB is making a bad throw when the ball goes nowhere near the player. A good amount of the time - especially when dealing with a smart, veteran QB like Smith - the WR hasn't run the route correctly. That said, Smith was bad yesterday in general.

I hope Chris Thompson is okay, but what a stupid playcall at that situation of the game that got him injured. You know your guy is going to take a hit and your other RB has already left the game with an injury. You're calling that in a blowout?

 

[Gene Parmesan]

I think people on here wrongly assume that the QB is making a bad throw when the ball goes nowhere near the player. A good amount of the time - especially when dealing with a smart, veteran QB like Smith - the WR hasn't run the route correctly. That said, Smith was bad yesterday in general.

I hope Chris Thompson is okay, but what a stupid playcall at that situation of the game that got him injured. You know your guy is going to take a hit and your other RB has already left the game with an injury. You're calling that in a blowout?

Last night he was late on throws and missing wide open players. Worst performance from him in a while.

 

[Avs_19]

Smith is a fine QB. He had a bad night and that WR core is one of the worst in the league.

I've been impressed by Cousins this year too - playing great.

Cousins has been great and better than I expected from him. He was supposed to be walking into a situation where they didn't need to count him too much because everything else in place but it has been nothing like that. Their OL is a mess, they can't run the ball, and their defense has been one of the worst in the league.

 

[HoseEmDown]

He isn't though

Stats wise there isn't much difference. Peyton does have the 2nd Super Bowl ring though. The thing is Peyton has always had better teams and offensive talent around him. Brees has done more with less to me. If Brees gets another ring there's no doubt he's better.

 

[What the Faulk]

Stats wise there isn't much difference. Peyton does have the 2nd Super Bowl ring though. The thing is Peyton has always had better teams and offensive talent around him. Brees has done more with less to me. If Brees gets another ring there's no doubt he's better.

First of all, if Manning or Brees had coaching like Brady or defenses half as good, they'd have more rings too, so that part is meaningless. As are QB wins, which Manning has 40 more of.

Second, on a per game basis, here are the numbers:

	Yards	TD	TD%	INT	INT%	ANY/A	Sack%
Manning	270.45	2.03	5.7	0.94	2.7	7.17	3.1
Brees	283.87	1.96	5.3	0.90	2.4	7.00	3.9

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Brees has a bit better completion percentage, but that's a misleading stat. QB rating is nearly identical, but that's also a trash stat.

Basically, Manning is more efficient on a per pass basis. He he throws slightly more INTs but takes a decent amount fewer sacks. Brees throws for more yards that don't translate to much. Manning also didn't enjoy as much time with the contemporary offense-friendly rules. Brees has thrown the ball 100 more times in 12 fewer games. He's racking up the counting stats, which is sexier, but that doesn't make him better.

Now, if you want to say Brees has out-performed Manning in the playoffs, I'd agree with you. But there's no real argument to be made that he's better than Peyton simply because he throws the ball more. That's not a knock on Brees as he's one of the best ever and has been overshadowed all his career by Brady and Manning, but the numbers here are pretty clear that Manning has an edge, however slight.

 

[HoseEmDown]

First of all, if Manning or Brees had coaching like Brady or defenses half as good, they'd have more rings too, so that part is meaningless. As are QB wins, which Manning has 40 more of.

Second, on a per game basis, here are the numbers:

	Yards	TD	TD%	INT	INT%	ANY/A	Sack%
Manning	270.45	2.03	5.7	0.94	2.7	7.17	3.1
Brees	283.87	1.96	5.3	0.90	2.4	7.00	3.9

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Brees has a bit better completion percentage, but that's a misleading stat. QB rating is nearly identical, but that's also a trash stat.

Basically, Manning is more efficient on a per pass basis. He he throws slightly more INTs but takes a decent amount fewer sacks. Brees throws for more yards that don't translate to much. Manning also didn't enjoy as much time with the contemporary offense-friendly rules. Brees has thrown the ball 100 more times in 12 fewer games. He's racking up the counting stats, which is sexier, but that doesn't make him better.

Now, if you want to say Brees has out-performed Manning in the playoffs, I'd agree with you. But there's no real argument to be made that he's better than Peyton simply because he throws the ball more. That's not a knock on Brees as he's one of the best ever and has been overshadowed all his career by Brady and Manning, but the numbers here are pretty clear that Manning has an edge, however slight.

Manning had Harrison and Wayne, Dallas Clark was a good TE and he had James as a good back early. Brees had Tomlinson as a good back early so that's a wash. He turned a couple of college basketball players into stars in Gates and Graham and took no name receivers like Colston, Thomas, Snead and made them top players. Like you said Manning was slightly better as a passer but I think Brees did more with who he had to work with. Not sure Manning is putting up the numbers Brees has with those players while Brees would easily put up the same as Manning if not more with those receivers.

 

[What the Faulk]

Manning had Harrison and Wayne, Dallas Clark was a good TE and he had James as a good back early. Brees had Tomlinson as a good back early so that's a wash. He turned a couple of college basketball players into stars in Gates and Graham and took no name receivers like Colston, Thomas, Snead and made them top players. Like you said Manning was slightly better as a passer but I think Brees did more with who he had to work with. Not sure Manning is putting up the numbers Brees has with those players while Brees would easily put up the same as Manning if not more with those receivers.

Stopped reading at you basically casting Gates aside as just a college basketball player. Not that Brees played with him for very long, but if that's a real opinion you have, I'm not gonna waste my time any further.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Stopped reading at you basically casting Gates aside as just a college basketball player. Not that Brees played with him for very long, but if that's a real opinion you have, I'm not gonna waste my time any further.

Well since he didn't play a snap of college football and played college basketball only I don't see the issue? He went undrafted and was signed as a free agent. Yes he turned into a great player but you don't think Brees had any help in that? He could've easily been some run of the mill TE and nothing special. The same for Graham who did the same thing.

 

[What the Faulk]

Brees transforming Gates into one of the best TEs ever because he played with him for 3 years is among the silliest things I've read on here.

 

[m9]

Graham was also a 3rd round pick, so regardless of his limited time in college football he was definitely a high pedigree guy.

 

[keonsbitterness]

wrong thread

 

[Roboturner913]

Drew never had the chance to work with multiple great pass catchers at the same time. Man for man, until recently, the Saints haven't had a collection of players at any point that comes close to matching Harrison/Wayne/Edge/Stokley/Clark core that Peyton had for a few years. Even now, Thomas/Kamara/Ingram/Ginn and whichever of Watson or Hill you consider the Saints #1 TE at this point come close despite it being the best skill group they've had in a long time. Even prime Jimmy Graham was more or less a short-lived gimmick. Drew has had to get the best out of a revolving cast of characters, kind of the same as Brady but Brady has had perennially solid defenses backing him up where Drew has had crap - literally some of the worst defenses in NFL history.

I'm a fan of Peyton, I went to the same high school as him - but it seems like to me Peyton always had it handed to him on a silver platter and all he had to do was not screw it up too bad - and even considering that, his postseason numbers fall well short of legendary and it seems like he still gets a pass on that stuff, for some reason. Brady is indisputably the GOAT, at least to me, but Brees and Brady's offensive situations have been so similar over the years and Brady's defenses have been so much better overall, that I have a hard time imagining you couldn't plug Brees into Brady's spot and get the same results in terms of championships.

 

[tony d]

Brees has had a good career and is among the best ever but no way is he better on an all time QB ranking list than Peyton Manning.

 

[What the Faulk]

Drew never had the chance to work with multiple great pass catchers at the same time. Man for man, until recently, the Saints haven't had a collection of players at any point that comes close to matching Harrison/Wayne/Edge/Stokley/Clark core that Peyton had for a few years. Even now, Thomas/Kamara/Ingram/Ginn and whichever of Watson or Hill you consider the Saints #1 TE at this point come close despite it being the best skill group they've had in a long time. Even prime Jimmy Graham was more or less a short-lived gimmick. Drew has had to get the best out of a revolving cast of characters, kind of the same as Brady but Brady has had perennially solid defenses backing him up where Drew has had crap - literally some of the worst defenses in NFL history.

I'm a fan of Peyton, I went to the same high school as him - but it seems like to me Peyton always had it handed to him on a silver platter and all he had to do was not screw it up too bad - and even considering that, his postseason numbers fall well short of legendary and it seems like he still gets a pass on that stuff, for some reason. Brady is indisputably the GOAT, at least to me, but Brees and Brady's offensive situations have been so similar over the years and Brady's defenses have been so much better overall, that I have a hard time imagining you couldn't plug Brees into Brady's spot and get the same results in terms of championships.

I'm with you on most of this. And I've said it a few times, I think Brees made Marques Colston into a perennial 1,000-yard guy. I don't think he hits it without Brees (or a guy like him), and he did it six times with two more in the 900s despite battling injuries.

 

[Roboturner913]

Brees has had a good career and is among the best ever but no way is he better on an all time QB ranking list than Peyton Manning.

Brees went head to head with Peyton in a Super Bowl and beat him in a game that wasn't very close, with what most people considered to be an inferior team at the time. Brees is also going to break all of Manning's records, and you can't hold the dome thing against him since Peyton played the same amount of time in a dome. And Brees' postseason statistics beat Manning's to a pulp.

The only thing Manning has over Brees is SB rings, if Brees gets another it's a no-brainer slam dunk to put him ahead of Peyton.

Brees' body of work doesn't stack up to Brady's mostly because 5 championships far outstrips one and as numerous people have noted, Brady has had to play in the elements....I will say, though, I'm pretty certain that if you took Brady and Brees and swapped them around, their respective franchises would have had just about the same amount of success.

 

[What the Faulk]

Brees went head to head with Peyton in a Super Bowl and beat him in a game that wasn't very close, with what most people considered to be an inferior team at the time. Brees is also going to break all of Manning's records, and you can't hold the dome thing against him since Peyton played the same amount of time in a dome. And Brees' postseason statistics beat Manning's to a pulp.

The only thing Manning has over Brees is SB rings, if Brees gets another it's a no-brainer slam dunk to put him ahead of Peyton.

Brees' body of work doesn't stack up to Brady's mostly because 5 championships far outstrips one and as numerous people have noted, Brady has had to play in the elements....I will say, though, I'm pretty certain that if you took Brady and Brees and swapped them around, their respective franchises would have had just about the same amount of success.

I mean, sure, if all you care about is rings, but that's even worse of a barometer than QB winz. Otherwise the table above tells a different tale.