Post-Game Talk: Wed., Dec. 11, 2013|Flyers 2 at Blackhawks 7

[flyerstime]

parent-krajicek > schenn-mez

 

[Captain Perimeter 28]

He has not been this team's best forward, let alone player this year, not by a long shot. Both Read and Couturier have been significantly better and both would be outscoring Giroux if their power play times were reversed.

More or less. I'm not advocating a 610 the flyers lost, trade everyone view. I just don't see any team winning anything significant with Giroux as their captain and #1 center. Let him do what he does best.

 

[Flyerss]

 

[Striiker]

I'm not going to talk about the numerous flaws with the lineup as I pointed them out and got mad about them very early on in the season. I'm also pretty apathetic with it right now so I don't care as much.

However, I'm not a fan of Berube anymore. I was giving him a chance before, but this was it for me. We have the Chicago Blackhawks today and then Montreal Canadiens tomorrow and he makes the complete opposite decision that he should and decided to start Emery against Chicago and Mason against Montreal (presumably). To top it off when Emery starting inevitably backfires he puts Mason in way after the game is already lost with only less then a period to go and now we have a game tomorrow against an Eastern opponent and both our goalies played tonight and didn't do well.

His lineup decisions are also ****ing maddening and nonsensical. When he got hired he went on and on about accountability but that's proven to be complete crap by now. Rosehill and Rinaldo can do as much stupid crap as they want or bring as little to the game as possible yet he thinks it's fine to not bench them and even play them at the same time. Those two shouldn't be playing at the same time even when they are playing well and not doing stupid stuff. Then Meszaros is the Golden Boy apparently and despite having no future and never playing well he can't get a ticket out of the lineup. Meanwhile our own homegrown young talent with the skillset that is much more usable gets sat for having a few turnovers in one game and can't buy a ticket into the lineup.

Also, what in the **** was the Gill signing for? Like, does anyone besides me even remember that he's signed and on the roster technically? That must be the easiest ****ing paycheck ever. Just fly in airplanes and watch hockey games in a press box my God.

Yet again, I agree. I had faith in Berube at first but his lineup decisions, lack of fixing lines, and just overall bad judgement has made me start to question if he's a good coach.

 

[Garbage Goal]

I hate when people comment on leadership. Like any of us know who the **** is a good leader and who isn't. Leadership refers to a player's ability to motivate a team and lead the charge. Thing is though this is a team game with 20 or so man rosters so no one player is going to change how a team performs regardless of a stitched on letter on their jersey.

None of us are in the lockerroom or know Giroux personally. None of us have the right to comment on his leadership even though some feel like they do. All I know is that he's our best natural scorer and still manages to put up respectable offensive numbers over the course of any given season as well as the fact that I've never heard one player or staff member or even vague source claim that Giroux is a cancer or a bad leader. Saying otherwise is pure speculation and just bias plain and simple.

I'm tired of the ****ing leadership criticism. It's the same crap that Richards and Carter got and they seem to do perfectly damn well elsewhere. They've both even won a Cup on the same team since leaving. Giroux giving motivational speeches or defying the crap play of the likes of Hartnell to put up even a PPG isn't going to change how weak our top six is, the baffling lineup decisions by the coach, or the mistakes the GM has made.

**** annoys me.

I see what you're saying. I think everyone has come to terms with the fact that Schenn is never becoming a superstar like advertised, but I still want to see him on the first line for a while just to see what happens. The second line would be pretty dead but it's not like it was really working to begin with. If it doesn't work with Schenn on the first line then there's really no difference, but if it does then I'd rather have only two good lines than one good line and two merely OK lines. Yes, it would be a desperation move, but what do they have to lose?At this point I'm in favor of anything that removes Hartnell from the first line so they at least have chance.

The forward prospect pool is pretty horrible outside of Laughton, and like I said before, I'm not under the impression that Straka or Akeson would be successful here. I just think there's nothing to lose by giving them the chance that McGinn has done nothing with.

I get it and if I still cared I'd want all those moves to happen to, but as is I'm apathetic like I said and I really don't think any of that is going to change what we have. Regardless of where the players are shifted around the weaknesses are still there.

 

[Striiker]

He has not been this team's best forward, let alone player this year, not by a long shot. Both Read and Couturier have been significantly better and both would be outscoring Giroux if their power play times were reversed.

Hartnell and Voracek have sucked, you won't hear any arguments there from me. However, Giroux has sucked just as much as they have. People here act like he's giving them tap ins and they're blowing it, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Yeah, they have no chemistry and I've wanted the lines changed for about 20 games now, but that still doesn't mean that Giroux hasn't been terrible.

I disagree. Couturier is playing with two players who compliment his play style. Read and Downie are both great at puck possession, both are good passers, and Read has a really good shot. Having good wingers is huge for a center. Now Giroux on the other hand either has to score all on his own or there's no goal. He doesn't have Read to set up, he doesn't have Downie to set him up, and he doesn't have either of them to posses the puck and take a bit of attention off of him.

 

[Striiker]

Even Tocchet is now saying they need to get Hartnell of Giroux's wing. He wants Voracek on his LW and Downie on his RW... not sure how that would work though. Can Voracek even play LW?

 

[Captain Perimeter 28]

Yet again, I agree. I had faith in Berube at first but his lineup decisions, lack of fixing lines, and just overall bad judgement has made me start to question if he's a good coach.

I am far from sold on anything he has done, but what does he really have to work with? The team he inherited is abysmal in its construction. Moves need to be made, yet such moves risk absolute failure; therefore, he plays it safe and the team maybe finishes in a playoff spot—due more to the depravity of parity in the East. Good poker player in my opinion.

 

[Captain Perimeter 28]

I hate when people comment on leadership. Like any of us know who the **** is a good leader and who isn't. Leadership refers to a player's ability to motivate a team and lead the charge. Thing is though this is a team game with 20 or so man rosters so no one player is going to change how a team performs regardless of a stitched on letter on their jersey.

None of us are in the lockerroom or know Giroux personally. None of us have the right to comment on his leadership even though some feel like they do. All I know is that he's our best natural scorer and still manages to put up respectable offensive numbers over the course of any given season as well as the fact that I've never heard one player or staff member or even vague source claim that Giroux is a cancer or a bad leader. Saying otherwise is pure speculation and just bias plain and simple.

I'm tired of the ****ing leadership criticism. It's the same crap that Richards and Carter got and they seem to do perfectly damn well elsewhere. They've both even won a Cup on the same team since leaving. Giroux giving motivational speeches or defying the crap play of the likes of Hartnell to put up even a PPG isn't going to change how weak our top six is, the baffling lineup decisions by the coach, or the mistakes the GM has made.

**** annoys me.



I get it and if I still cared I'd want all those moves to happen to, but as is I'm apathetic like I said and I really don't think any of that is going to change what we have. Regardless of where the players are shifted around the weaknesses are still there.

Refer back to your explication on the eye test from previous posts.

 

[Garbage Goal]

I am far from sold on anything he has done, but what does he really have to work with? The team he inherited is abysmal in its construction. Moves need to be made, yet such moves risk absolute failure; therefore, he plays it safe and the team maybe finishes in a playoff spot—due more to the depravity of parity in the East. Good poker player in my opinion.

Not sure what you're getting at here.

Berube isn't the GM. Holmgren is the one who has the power to make roster moves and we're commenting on Berube's lineup decisions. If the goal is to make the playoffs or even win games it makes no sense to play your worst players for no apparent logical reason.

It also makes his preaching about accountability seem like pure hypocritical crap.

 

[SuchySays]

yeah, i've never seen a line struggle SO much for SO long without being broken up.

I think it's time to just try other stuff. Keep the Couturier line together but try anything.

Play wingers at center, who the **** cares.. do it up NHL14 style.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Refer back to your explication of the eye test in previous posts.

We can see leadership with our eyes now?

Giroux isn't performing as most would hope or like offensively, but he's never been a dominant two-way player so I'm not sure what people expect when he isn't putting up a PPG and the top six is a mess. Leadership, which is what my post was about, is not something you can observe from watching games. By definition it's an intangible trait.

 

[Winston Wolf]

I disagree. Couturier is playing with two players who compliment his play style. Read and Downie are both great at puck possession, both are good passers, and Read has a really good shot. Having good wingers is huge for a center. Now Giroux on the other hand either has to score all on his own or there's no goal. He doesn't have Read to set up, he doesn't have Downie to set him up, and he doesn't have either of them to posses the puck and take a bit of attention off of him.

Listen, I like Giroux and really want him to succeed. Having said that, he's been terrible this year, no excuses. He's shown very little of the passion and physicality that put him in another class apart from other small, shifty players like Briere, Cammalleri, Ribeiro, etc. Right now he looks like one of them. He doesn't go to the net hard and is really a perimeter player right now. That has absolutely zero to do with Hartnell or Voracek.

 

[SuchySays]

I agree with Garbage Goal on the leadership post.

I will not quote it because its pretty long.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

This is the Flyers. What you are watching is not a mirage. The checking system Berube put in place works if you have good all around hockey players(ala, Couturier). When your wings are occupied by puds with little technical skill, you need solid centers with high hockey IQs. Giroux is missing the 21rst chromosome in center speak: his defensive awareness and overall understanding of the position, outside of occupying the left dot on the PP, is not up to snuff. That is glossing over the fact that he is our chosen leader... I think he would be better suited to play on 40's wing where he wouldn't have to think the game, and would be afforded the opportunity to occupy the wall dangling away—cross ice passes all day.

40 should be on 28's wing if anything

 

[Garbage Goal]

Listen, I like Giroux and really want him to succeed. Having said that, he's been terrible this year, no excuses. He's shown very little of the passion and physicality that put him in another class apart from other small, shifty players like Briere, Cammalleri, Ribeiro, etc. Right now he looks like one of them. He doesn't go to the net hard and is really a perimeter player right now. That has absolutely zero to do with Hartnell or Voracek.

You have to be referring to those three either in the past tense or the present tense. Either way it doesn't make sense.

Briere was a great scorer for a while and even when that took a downturn he was still a monster performer in the playoffs for us. If Giroux were as good as Briere was in his prime at scoring I'd be fine with that. If you're comparing him to Briere in the present that just makes zero sense.

Cammalleri and Ribeiro also used to be great players who put up great totals. He's also nowhere near the level of Cammalleri in the present.

 

[Winston Wolf]

You have to be referring to those three either in the past tense or the present tense. Either way it doesn't make sense.

Briere was a great scorer for a while and even when that took a downturn he was still a monster performer in the playoffs for us. If Giroux were as good as Briere was in his prime at scoring I'd be fine with that. If you're comparing him to Briere in the present that just makes zero sense.

Cammalleri and Ribeiro also used to be great players who put up great totals. He's also nowhere near the level of Cammalleri in the present.

Eh, it's not a perfect comparison, but what I really meant is soft point compilers who are hardly franchise guys like the player Giroux was two years ago. They might put up tons of points, but their teams never go anywhere and they've all seen plenty of movement in their careers. They're very far away from the player that Giroux actually should be.

 

[Captain Perimeter 28]

We can see leadership with our eyes now?

Giroux isn't performing as most would hope or like offensively, but he's never been a dominant two-way player so I'm not sure what people expect when he isn't putting up a PPG and the top six is a mess. Leadership, which is what my post was about, is not something you can observe from watching games. By definition it's an intangible trait.

How can you not see see leadership or lack thereof from watching? I saw a team absolutely disintegrate tonight, not get beat handily, but come unglued. The Captain with no fire, and quite honestly looking disinterested. Two games previous our 20 year old center took to tossing em to fire up the team. It wasn't ideal, but he got it: somebody needed to do something. What does that say about the captain? I am not saying G has to drop the gloves to get em going, but do something. He is ashamed. He cannot call anyone out because he is himself not producing. That lack of confidence is contagious... I thought Richie was a fine captain so cool down about the past influencing my current views.

 

[Prongo]

Quite simply people...

Bobby Ryan.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Eh, it's not a perfect comparison, but what I really meant is soft point compilers who are hardly franchise guys like the player Giroux was two years ago. They might put up tons of points, but their teams never go anywhere and they've all seen plenty of movement in their careers. They're very far away from the player that Giroux actually should be.

Aside from the point totals varying a bit, that same exact thing people thought about Richards and Carter then they proceeded to win a Cup as important contributors to LA very shortly after leaving here.

Giroux was never a dominant two-way player so this is what he looks like when he's not the PPG guy we want him to be. It's the same as we've always seen him really. I'm not sure if you guys expect Giroux to dangle through all three forwards, two defenders, and the opposing goalie or what but our D isn't mobile or able to contribute much offensively and our top six is just flat-out incompetent.

 

[Clown Baby*]

Since it was asked, Striiker:

Lecavalier is very disappointing on the face-off circle which is a big minus about him considering one of the big appeals of the signing was his face-off ability. Without it all he has is some offensive production since he's a liability with two-way play often enough and he's in and out of the lineup. So it's hard to be happy with him either overall.

The thing about Schenn is that he really is invisible out there. People refer to eye tests because it's an easy way to tell when a player makes bad mistakes or great plays. Schenn is never making either it seems. The eye test is the same thing that let me know Giroux was going to be great before he was great and putting up points on paper. The eye test also let me (and others obviously) let me know that Couturier is a big part of this team and a special player despite his lack of appearing on the score or stat sheet. I could go on, but you get the point. People refer to Schenn's point production constantly, but coming from a guy that watches just about every game (myself) and many others he doesn't seem to do anything to a be a big contributor to it. Sometimes players get "lucky" for lack of a better term with scoring and that seems to be happening with Schenn. I wasn't a fan of him before we acquired him and I'm still not, but he most definitely have the best ability to finish chances in the slot out of our entire lineup.

Normally Schenn would be worth trying with Giroux and I really don't know why it hasn't been tried yet, but it's a pretty big desperation move in reality. If you move him that makes a pretty non-existent second line considering that Lecavalier is out and we can't break up the Couturier line for now (if they don't get back to dominating form then we can talk about it). People don't talk about it, but our forward prospect pool is extremely weak and has been for a long while. It's why we're arguing about whether guys like McGinn, Straka, or Akeson should be called up over each other and why Raffl is on a scoring line. It's also why if we move Schenn to Giroux it's just going to put a big onus on the Couturier line and Giroux line to produce while we have two other lines that are just complete messes.

So, even if this sounds defeatist or overly negative, I don't care. Kind of doomed if you do, doomed if you don't. It is puzzling why Schenn hasn't been moved off the second line at any point though. Pretty much every player besides him has been tested around the lineup.

Schenn, I think, is the type of player that gets points at the expense of the team's overall success (e.g. Gilbert Brule). Because, let's be honest here, somebody's going to score points. Even the '92 Senators had 200 goals.

 

[Pantokrator]

I have no idea what to do with this team now. I almost feel like we are in Calgary Flame mode, where we have mediocre players that are good enough not to allow us to finish in the bottom three to make possible impact drafting.

We'll finish 8th worse, or 6th worse, get an OK player at the draft, and then remain the same the following year. Who could possibly be traded to bring in anyone of real value? Every player on the team is at a trading low. It's like the only way to make the team good is bring in a Hitchcock type coach who makes the team defense good and then we become a playoff team who still don't have what it takes to win it all.

I don't think I have ever seen the team's future so bleak other than the early 90s teams when we had players like Jeff Chychrun, Jiri Latal, Pat Murray and Dale Kushner and we drafted Ryan Sittler and Jason Bowen. the way we got out of that was getting Lindros and fleecing MTL of LeClair. I don't see anything like that happening.

 

[Harold Bingo]

Well, that was embarrassing. I feel like this is what a lot of games would look like if Mason wasn't there to bail them out.

I think it's shake up time...again.

 

[Striiker]

Not good enough to win the cup, not bad enough to get a great prospect in the draft... why can't we have nice things?

 

[FLYERSFAN18]

I wonder if Ottawa would be at all interested in a Simmonds+Lecavalier+first or Simmonds+2Firsts for Ryan. Might be over payment IDK, but G really needs a pure goal scorer.

Ryan-Giroux-Voracek
Schenn-Couturier-Read
Hartnell-Laughton-Downie
McGinn-Hall-Rinalldo
Rosehill

or

Ryan-Giroux-Voracek
Schenn-Couturier-Read
Hartnell-Lecavalier-Downie
Rinaldo-Laughton-Hall
Rosehill