We are in phase 2 of the rebuild, next year we need to contend for the playoffs

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Clearly Dorion should have said all the players suck and noone is expected to try and compete. He then should have stated that there is no hope withe the current group and they are expected to sit on their asses and do nothing untill other guys show up and do it for them.

Now you're getting it.

 

[BatherSeason]

Disconnect...you think those poll votes are real? Seriously?

That'd be kinda of equivalent to polling a white supremecist group on their thoughts on immigration and passing off the results as real.

Here we go with the whole "only on HFBoards" takes again.

It's a beautiful day out today, go for a walk around the city and talk to people. Ask them how they feel about the Ottawa Senators, see what they have to say.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

Clearly Dorion should have said all the players suck and noone is expected to try and compete. He then should have stated that there is no hope withe the current group and they are expected to sit on their asses and do nothing untill other guys show up and do it for them.

It's just better if he says nothing at all.

Should've let AGM Boro do the talking

 

[Chabot84]

Yeah.... I'm not so sure about that. Turris, Phaneuf and Brassard were all healthy scratches at one point this season. Methot can barely stay healthy. Anderson is almost 40. That's our top 2 centers, 2 of our top 4 defensemen, and our #1G from our 2017 cup run. Our core was on the precipice of declining.

The Duchene trade was supposed to help us extend the window before it closed sometime either last season or this season, but we all know what happened after that.

Yeah but they traded Zibanejad for Brassard.... so Brassard doesn't count as we should have never made that trade in the first place. That was the dumbest trade I have ever seen.

Turris was gone for Duchene so although I didn't agree with the trade at the time.. if Turris was going to decline then good on them.

That Zibby trade though.. WOW.. that was the start man.. I remember puking in my mouth when that was announced. And look we could have had Zibby + Duchene down the middle..

TWO #1 C's...

pissed it all away

WE NEVER NEEDED A REBUILD.... Management dropped the ball big time.

Whats the point of a rebuild? To get our team back with different names on the jerseys? I think some posters are bang on.. they did it to take the easy way out to let all the money expire.. they made too many mistakes... but now look at some of our prospects coming up and tell me we couldn't have built a supporting cast around these guys?

Give me a break. Ryan isn't even that bad.. big deal we have an overpaid player wow! An overpaid player who can slot into the top 6.

 

[Chabot84]

Imagine we had both Chabot and Karlsson? FFS.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Clearly Dorion should have said all the players suck and noone is expected to try and compete. He then should have stated that there is no hope withe the current group and they are expected to sit on their asses and do nothing untill other guys show up and do it for them.

Clearly the only other option would be to go to extreme

 

[Micklebot]

Yeah.... I'm not so sure about that. Turris, Phaneuf and Brassard were all healthy scratches at one point this season. Methot can barely stay healthy. Anderson is almost 40. That's our top 2 centers, 2 of our top 4 defensemen, and our #1G from our 2017 cup run. Our core was on the precipice of declining.

The Duchene trade was supposed to help us extend the window before it closed sometime either last season or this season, but we all know what happened after that.

I'm just going to go ahead and quote @Gesus because I think you aren't really responding to his argument, emphasis is mine:

Which group here do you think was more likely the problem? Can you tell me which group cost more? I already know the answer.

Karlsson
Stone
Duchene
Hoffman
Dzingel

or

Smith
Ryan
Condon
Ceci
Anderson
Phaneuf
Burrows
Pageau

That 2nd group ate like 35-40 million and was supposed to be the supporting cast. They couldn't do it other than Pageau. Management/ownership couldn't afford to fix 40 million worth of mistakes, so they took the easy way out by selling everyone with value and now they can just wait for the rest of the money to expire.

Our core wasn't Turris, Phaneuf, Brassard, and Methot, it was Karlsson, Stone, and Duchene (and Chabot who's still here).

People were upset that Methot was let go not because he was to be kept at all costs, but because we never tried to replace his role on the team. Nobody saw Brassard or Phaneuf as pieces that needed to be retained. Even Turris, people were ok with moving on from provided we replaced him (in that case we did, some were upset at how much we gave up though)

 

[JD1]

Do you have any evidence to support we traded for Duchene to appease Karlsson?

Here is a direct quote from GMPD the day after the trade.

“We feel we got an elite player and someone that helps us to win right now and we’re on the path to win right now.”

Assessing anything but draft talent is not PDs strength. That much is obvious to most and you have no real argument in your lengthy response to SOA. Just pure speculation.

There is no excuse for our flip flop to win now and rebuild. It's incompetence that we gave up the top lottery pick in a rebuild.

Evidence? No. I think i was pretty clear they were my thoughts.

You want an excuse? 30 to 40 games later it was evident win now wasn't going to work

 

[JD1]

1. Was the collapse a blip in the assessment that we were playoff contenders due to Karlsson's injury and the disruption in the room and perhaps coaching? Weeks after you assess the team as being a contender .. and slumping bad, you conclude you now need a full on rebuild? That kind of 180 is very very strange to me.

2. The talent we have; without going into a length breakdown , evaluating where the players are; I am going just say that we have a very deep pool of potential NHL players but not a deep pool of high end NHL players. Further I think development of some will be stunted or slowed by not having quality veterans to learn from. I think that will apply more to some than to others. I think our top prospects in Belleville are closer to two years away from making a name for themselves in the NHL. In two years they will be able to hold their own, but will not emerge as impact players yet. New talent will arrive but 95+% of young players need some mentors to play with that they can learn from. I am not talking about chopping at the puck to put it off the glass.. or dumping it in from center and chasing it down. On defense I think it was a big mistake not to get a decent vet that can help insulate the young D.. Ceci and Boro are not the answer for that. Example: Lajoie. We still need that. We also need it at forward .. Stone was awesome for White especially. Tkachuk brings that break down the barn door game and he is good at it. I am advocating for a top 6 forward and a top 4 D being added for that purpose.

I think next year will be a tough year no where close to a playoff spot which is good for the rebuild regarding draft position. I'll leave my predictions there for now, and reassess when, if anything changes.

The flip was pretty damn strange to me as well. I wonder what triggered it? I could speculate but it's all just speculation. Pure spec on my end would be coming to the understanding after the Duchene acquisition but before the TDL that Karlsson would not re-sign.

As for the talent, sure i agree with your view on the lack of an elite talent up front. Something i looked at over the years is NHL cup winning rosters and what they have in common. It seems to me the most identifyable link is 2 H of F players in their prime and it seems less important where they play. We may well have one with Chabot.

We could use a vet D and a solid vet F.

Wheh you say closer to 2 years away from making an impact...what do you mean by that? Two more years of seasoning and then an impact? Or not ne t season ut the season after?

I think we have a few guys that can come in next season and have a White type year and the season beyond that we could have a couple explode points wise.

We had a discussion not long ago on the TB model. I can't remember who but someone was talking about all the seasoning they provide their players. Many of their guys played between .5 and 1.5 AHL seasons, graduated to the show and their careers took off. I see the same potential here

 

[supsens]

Clearly the only other option would be to go to extreme

Well that's my point isn't it? He has to say what he said, I see people debating like he is trying to pull a fast one or that he is too stupid to understand the rebuild isn't over.
He made a generic statement, he knows as well as everyone else how screwed they are.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Well that's my point isn't it? He has to say what he said, I see people debating like he is trying to pull a fast one or that he is too stupid to understand the rebuild isn't over.
He made a generic statement, he knows as well as everyone else how screwed they are.

My point is , and I have said it earlier, He did not have to get into .. compete for a playoff spot next year, in the playoffs the following...
He simply could have said , as everyone is aware we are rebuilding and we are expecting improvement from our young players. We feel we are going in the right direction with our young players, prospects and draft picks across 2 quality drafts. IMO the rest of it is what he is peddling and its on the overly optimistic side.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The flip was pretty damn strange to me as well. I wonder what triggered it? I could speculate but it's all just speculation. Pure spec on my end would be coming to the understanding after the Duchene acquisition but before the TDL that Karlsson would not re-sign.

As for the talent, sure i agree with your view on the lack of an elite talent up front. Something i looked at over the years is NHL cup winning rosters and what they have in common. It seems to me the most identifyable link is 2 H of F players in their prime and it seems less important where they play. We may well have one with Chabot.

We could use a vet D and a solid vet F.

Wheh you say closer to 2 years away from making an impact...what do you mean by that? Two more years of seasoning and then an impact? Or not ne t season ut the season after?

I think we have a few guys that can come in next season and have a White type year and the season beyond that we could have a couple explode points wise.

We had a discussion not long ago on the TB model. I can't remember who but someone was talking about all the seasoning they provide their players. Many of their guys played between .5 and 1.5 AHL seasons, graduated to the show and their careers took off. I see the same potential here

I mean for the players to grow to the point where they can drive a line or become impact players. White had a decent year. I think he missed Stone.. I mean who wouldn't . He definitely took a step and needs to take another one before we can say ok..White you are centering our 2nd line for example and you will be expected to drive that line and possibly mentor another young player breaking in. He isn't there yet ., hopefully he gets there by the end of next season .. So 2 years .. I would expect it to take Brown and Batherson two years from now to get there.. Again if White got to play with Mark Stone all this year and into next year that time may be shortened ..He may not ever get to where he could have , with a player like Mark Stone to mentor him. They need to be able to match up well against other NHL teams and win their match-ups or drive and produce offence like their piers in the NHL at that same slot. That won't be 1 year away for most.

 

[supsens]

My point is , and I have said it earlier, He did not have to get into .. compete for a playoff spot next year, in the playoffs the following...
He simply could have said , as everyone is aware we are rebuilding and we are expecting improvement from our young players. We feel we are going in the right direction with our young players, prospects and draft picks across 2 quality drafts. IMO the rest of it is what he is peddling and its on the overly optimistic side.

Ya but hes telling the players they have no excuse and are expected to be pro's. They are not babies or cuddled and he should not be making loser excuses for next year like you suggest

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Ya but hes telling the players they have no excuse and are expected to be pro's. They are not babies or cuddled and he should not be making loser excuses for next year like you suggest

I suggest he was talking to the media and by extension the fans and not to the players.

 

[supsens]

I suggest he was talking to the media and by extension the fans and not to the players.

He speaking as the boss. To fans, media and the players. You can't separate one from the other making public statements.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I suggest he was talking to the media and by extension the fans and not to the players.

Why would he want the players to think he is a complete and utter ***hole

 

[JD1]

I mean for the players to grow to the point where they can drive a line or become impact players. White had a decent year. I think he missed Stone.. I mean who wouldn't . He definitely took a step and needs to take another one before we can say ok..White you are centering our 2nd line for example and you will be expected to drive that line and possibly mentor another young player breaking in. He isn't there yet ., hopefully he gets there by the end of next season .. So 2 years .. I would expect it to take Brown and Batherson two years from now to get there.. Again if White got to play with Mark Stone all this year and into next year that time may be shortened ..He may not ever get to where he could have , with a player like Mark Stone to mentor him. They need to be able to match up well against other NHL teams and win their match-ups or drive and produce offence like their piers in the NHL at that same slot. That won't be 1 year away for most.

Ok, so go to the puck drop of the 2020 season.

White is a 4th year pro. He can either drive a 2nd line or more or he can't
Batherson and Brown are 3rd year pros. If they are going to be bonafide top 6 NHL players, they will be by that season.
Balcers will be a 4th year pro
Chaplik will be a 4th year pro
Add one year for all of them plus draft.

Tkachuk will be a 3rd year pro.

Will Duclair figure it out?

Chabot in his prime. Wolanin in his prime. Brannstrom a 3rd year pro.

I think it will become easier to surround young kids with "good pro" vets. The money is increasingly shifting to locking up young, coming off ELC stars. That means less money, less term, more availability of UFA vets.