Great Britain: WC D1A Budapest, Hungary (Final roster announced)

[3 Minute Minor]

You've never actually seen him play, he needs another year playing in the EIHL, he isn't ready

I'm sure everyone who watches the EIHL will say the same thing

He played a game in the Olympic Qualifiers... they got out shot 42-19.

Also saw a bunch of videos on youtube, I think I've seen him get scored on 40 times with his own D-man standing still directly in front of him

 

[Siamese Dream]

These tournaments are so competitive everything is on the line, it's a massive risk to put him in with only 1 year of EIHL experience. Bowns is just as good as Murphy when they are both on their game, but Murphy is more experienced and more consistent.

 

[Bojovnik]

Murphy had a pretty damn good tournament? When? He was awful at last years WC and he didn't play in the Olympic Qualifiers, he played in the Pre-Qualifiers and had good games against Romania and Japan but got beat up by Korea.

Were you in Ljubljana? Did you see the games? Also, he was injured for the OQ... that's why the Giants had signed Zemlak a couple of weeks before! I know that his save percentage is rotten, but trust me, Murph STOLE GB that game against Ukraine, which would have seen GB relegated otherwise.

While I rate Bowns, I still feel that Murphy is a step ahead of him. His performance for the Giants in the playoff final despite the loss proved that he is still a top tier goalie at EIHL level, and he has also been a top performer for GB for a number of years.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

This is turning into the horror stories I hear about THF... I simply say I hope Ben Bowns plays a game and you guys get fussy about it. The kid isn't going to magically get experience from sitting on the bench, there's a 0.0000001% chance of promotion, and odds of relegation are very high... What's wrong with getting him in 1 game to face tough international competition to help build on his international experience?

Comical part is it's coming from the same guys who complain about young players getting called up to higher levels in GB then only play 3 minutes of ice time during the game.

 

[Siamese Dream]

the point of the national team isn't to develop players, it's to win games and compete at the highest level possible with the best possible team

He got to play against Kazakhstan because it didn't mean anything, there was no relegation, but at this level there is and the competitiveness of the group means it will probably go right down to the wire.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

the point of the national team isn't to develop players, it's to win games and compete at the highest level possible with the best possible team

regardless of where you're playing you always have to be developing your players. Even Canada brings underage players to U20's/U18's/U17's to further their development. Look at every Canada WC team lol they take young players to give them experience so they'd be more experienced for future tournaments or an event like the Olympics, especially goalies.


Let's be real, if it was all about winning games & competing at the highest level possible with the best possible team then the team would be loaded with imports.

 

[Siamese Dream]

regardless of where you're playing you always have to be developing your players. Even Canada brings underage players to U20's/U18's/U17's to further their development. Look at every Canada WC team lol they take young players to give them experience so they'd be more experienced for future tournaments or an event like the Olympics, especially goalies.


Let's be real, if it was all about winning games & competing at the highest level possible with the best possible team then the team would be loaded with imports.

What have I told you in the past about comparing us to Canada? Canada takes the best possible team to the U20's (except the NHL players of course) and they don't really care about the U18 team or WC's because they know they don't have their best players and even with a weaker team relegation is extremely unlikely because of the massive talent pool. For us relegation is likely so we have to play our best team. Those tournaments are basically friendlies for Canada, if the EIHL actually respected the IIHF international breaks we might be able to schedule some friendlies against teams a similar level to us, then we can ice a team aimed towards development and experience.

Yeah we tried that and so did countries like France, it was counter productive because it isn't sustainable. Sustainability is part of competing at the highest level possible.

By the way I didn't say I don't hope Ben Bowns doesn't get to play. I merely said he wasn't ready and it's a risk to throw him into meaningful games. If it's mathematically impossible to get promoted or relegated on the final day then I would be all for letting him play.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

What have I told you in the past about comparing us to Canada? Canada takes the best possible team to the U20's (except the NHL players of course) and they don't really care about the U18 team or WC's because they know they don't have their best players and even with a weaker team relegation is extremely unlikely because of the massive talent pool. For us relegation is likely so we have to play our best team. Those tournaments are basically friendlies for Canada, if the EIHL actually respected the IIHF international breaks we might be able to schedule some friendlies against teams a similar level to us, then we can ice a team aimed towards development and experience.

Yeah we tried that and so did countries like France, it was counter productive because it isn't sustainable. Sustainability is part of competing at the highest level possible.

By the way I didn't say I don't hope Ben Bowns doesn't get to play. I merely said he wasn't ready and it's a risk to throw him into meaningful games. If it's mathematically impossible to get promoted or relegated on the final day then I would be all for letting him play.

It's not really a comparison, it's just an example of how players are developed and what better example then the country who develops players better then anywhere else? And the example is saying EVEN Canada spends time developing young players in national tournaments, and they're playing in tournaments with tons of pressure on them and have the highest expectations of any country in the world. It's simply an example and I'll continue to use them as an example because they're a program I'm familiar with and they're a great example for how to develop players properly.

And for the second bit, why would you make a comment at all then? What's wrong with me saying "I hope Ben Bowns gets a start"? You acted like I said "I hope Ben Bowns is the starting goal throughout the entire tournament and has a statue erected in his honor at the conclusion of the tournament"

 

[Siamese Dream]

It's not really a comparison, it's just an example of how players are developed and what better example then the country who develops players better then anywhere else? And the example is saying EVEN Canada spends time developing young players in national tournaments, and they're playing in tournaments with tons of pressure on them and have the highest expectations of any country in the world. It's simply an example and I'll continue to use them as an example because they're a program I'm familiar with and they're a great example for how to develop players properly.

And for the second bit, why would you make a comment at all then? What's wrong with me saying "I hope Ben Bowns gets a start"? You acted like I said "I hope Ben Bowns is the starting goal throughout the entire tournament and has a statue erected in his honor at the conclusion of the tournament"

Don't be silly, Canada can afford to send a development team to these tournaments, they're still better than a lot of countries even without their best players, they have nothing to lose. We can't afford to do that. Continue to use Canada as an example, and continue to be wrong, that's fine.

I think it was more the other guy who acted like that actually, not me, I was just adding a statement to the discussion.

I actually agree, I would like him to get a game, but I would prefer it to be one that doesn't mean anything.

 

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

regardless of where you're playing you always have to be developing your players. Even Canada brings underage players to U20's/U18's/U17's to further their development. Look at every Canada WC team lol they take young players to give them experience so they'd be more experienced for future tournaments or an event like the Olympics, especially goalies.


Let's be real, if it was all about winning games & competing at the highest level possible with the best possible team then the team would be loaded with imports.

Canada is in the elite division, with half of it's player engaged elsewhere, and simply doesn't care for the WC very much. Most European teams take it very very seriously.

U-20 Canada nearly always loads up on 18/19 year olds. U-18 has no official tournament for Canada, since Ivan Hlinka is at a better time of year for them. There is no IIHF U-17 world tournament. Those "young players" are players that are more than capable of performing at that level without harming their prospective results.

Unlike the top nations these tournaments are the pinnacle for nations like GB. You don't use senior events to develop young talent. If the talent is good enough, fine, play them, but it is on merit. You don't use these events as excursions to test stuff out. Your best players play.

You really do live in an odd little world.

 

[Bojovnik]

With a full strength team at the top of its game, I honestly don't think that GB are that far away from getting a 2nd place spot in 1B. Taking results in isolation, they've picked up a 2:1 to KAZ, losing in the final two minutes in 2011, a 4:3 OTL to SLO in 2010, defeating Hungary in an all-or-nothing game in 2012, while running France close at the OQ and picking up a win over Japan at the Pre-quali

Granted it would take a lot of luck, and the team to truly be firing on all cylinders, but I certainly feel there is a chance.

Ho hum, maybe I'm an optimist though.

Lets just say that I'd rather see GB scrapping consistently for 3rd/4th in 1A, than having to spend a year in 1B because we did just play the youth.

If GB do go down this year, and end up having to play in 1B in 2014, then yes, I think it's definitely right to have a more youthful team. Seeing that the trickiest game will be against either Poland or Ukraine, and there are nothing to be some 'easy' games, then you can fill the team up with youth.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

Always cracks me up how fussy you guys get when someone mentions a country with actual success as an EXAMPLE. You can keep saying that the situations are different, I've always understood there's significant differences but in a case like this, player development is player development. And you can tell me how wrong I am all you want, neither of you of you have any experience in player development (I don't know about Tatanik)

Funny thing is, maybe if Ben Bowns had some experience, you wouldn't have to take in the third string goalie if Murphy happens to get injured or is for some reason unavailable... That literally just happened to GB. Did you guys already forget the Olympic Qualifiers????

and 99 problems, the reason why I'm hoping to see Ben Bowns get a start is because with the tournaments set up the way they are, there's bound to be meaningless games in this tournament. We had a discussion about how many meaningless games were in these tournaments during the U18s so I figured that was obvious. Especially in this division this year.

 

[J17 Vs Proclamation]

Nah, it's not the examples, it's the logic applied behind it. This isn't a case of player development, this is simply a case of a team picking it's best players for a chance to win.

I have no opinion of the player in question, since i haven't seen him. 99 problems can give a much better opinion on this player. It's your reasoning behind that i question. National games aren't about player development, they are about results (Especially this particular event). Player integration perhaps for the future. You act as if national teams are about developing youth ; wrong. Youth development has nothing to do with senior national teams. When the young players are somewhat ready to play with the senior teams, they will play or be a part of it, but until then ... they are not. Youth development is incredibly important, but it's like when people moan about our football team and say we don't use enough youth players. Well, that is because the youth development sucks, and most cannot compete on that scale yet.

Know anything about player development? Please. It's fine that you wish to follow GB and generate discussions, but everytime you're corrected you throw a tantram like this. Who knows, maybe you truely do understand youth development, but if so, you are an excellent actor.

Perhaps one day the frivilious comparisons with Canada might work.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Always cracks me up how fussy you guys get when someone mentions a country with actual success as an EXAMPLE. You can keep saying that the situations are different, I've always understood there's significant differences but in a case like this, player development is player development. And you can tell me how wrong I am all you want, neither of you of you have any experience in player development (I don't know about Tatanik)

Funny thing is, maybe if Ben Bowns had some experience, you wouldn't have to take in the third string goalie if Murphy happens to get injured or is for some reason unavailable... That literally just happened to GB. Did you guys already forget the Olympic Qualifiers????

and 99 problems, the reason why I'm hoping to see Ben Bowns get a start is because with the tournaments set up the way they are, there's bound to be meaningless games in this tournament. We had a discussion about how many meaningless games were in these tournaments during the U18s so I figured that was obvious. Especially in this division this year.

An important international tournament isn't the place for player development. Friendlies are the time to give players international experience, unfortunately our league system setup makes that impossible, the EIHL needs to get its act together on that front. One day the time will come when we need to throw Ben Bowns in as the starter, but right now there is a better goaltender available and it's not worth taking the risk.

Stevie Lyle isn't the third string goalie, he had retired from international competition, it was his personal decision, and his decision to come out of retirement to play in the Olympic qualifiers. Had he not retired he would still be going as Murphy's backup.

No there isn't bound to be meaningless games, don't get back into that conversation again. Last year if we did not beat Hungary in the last game we would have been relegated, the year before that we won our final game and if Ukraine had beaten Kazakhstan in their final game we would have been promoted. Under the new system every game means something. Meaningless games at this level happen every once in a blue moon.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

J17 I donno why you bother responding to my posts

An important international tournament isn't the place for player development. Friendlies are the time to give players international experience, unfortunately our league system setup makes that impossible, the EIHL needs to get its act together on that front. One day the time will come when we need to throw Ben Bowns in as the starter, but right now there is a better goaltender available and it's not worth taking the risk.

Stevie Lyle isn't the third string goalie, he had retired from international competition, it was his personal decision, and his decision to come out of retirement to play in the Olympic qualifiers. Had he not retired he would still be going as Murphy's backup.

No there isn't bound to be meaningless games, don't get back into that conversation again. Last year if we did not beat Hungary in the last game we would have been relegated, the year before that we won our final game and if Ukraine had beaten Kazakhstan in their final game we would have been promoted. Under the new system every game means something. Meaningless games at this level happen every once in a blue moon.

You simply don't understand why I brought up Canada. They take young players to international events, give them some ice time / experience at that level for when they need them to step up and be the guy at the tournament all the time. Wouldn't you say that it's more important for GB to have their young guy ready to step up in case something comes up because they don't have depth? Canada can probably find 14 replacements for a guy if he gets injured (all with international experience because they give players opportunities all the time), GB doesn't exactly have those options. Maybe they should give a kid some experience when they have the chance.

Also, are you saying that Canada doesn't take international hockey as serious as GB because I might have to travel over their and slap you you can probably find hfboard posters who say they don't care about the World Championships but I can assure you hockey people in Canada still take the tournament very seriously.

Only thing Stevie Lyle has on Ben Bowns is experience, ironic? I'm on my phone so I'm not going to look up the numbers but I'm willing to bet Lyle hasn't had a season as good as Bowns in the EIHL since he was under 30 years old (keep in mind Bowns was on a brutal team).


I guarantee there will be meaningless games in this tournament. 100% guarantee

 

[Bojovnik]

Only thing Stevie Lyle has on Ben Bowns is experience, ironic? I'm on my phone so I'm not going to look up the numbers but I'm willing to bet Lyle hasn't had a season as good as Bowns in the EIHL since he was under 30 years old (keep in mind Bowns was on a brutal team).

I guarantee there will be meaningless games in this tournament. 100% guarantee

Lyle is a 79 born:

2009-10 Cardiff Devils EIHL 67 2.67 .911
2011-12 Cardiff Devils EIHL 62 2.55 .908

Also, in February Lyle was near enough a .935-.940 in the EPL, and was getting incredible plaudits by Bison fans.

 

[Siamese Dream]

J17 I donno why you bother responding to my posts



You simply don't understand why I brought up Canada. They take young players to international events, give them some ice time / experience at that level for when they need them to step up and be the guy at the tournament all the time. Wouldn't you say that it's more important for GB to have their young guy ready to step up in case something comes up because they don't have depth? Canada can probably find 14 replacements for a guy if he gets injured (all with international experience because they give players opportunities all the time), GB doesn't exactly have those options. Maybe they should give a kid some experience when they have the chance.

Also, are you saying that Canada doesn't take international hockey as serious as GB because I might have to travel over their and slap you you can probably find hfboard posters who say they don't care about the World Championships but I can assure you hockey people in Canada still take the tournament very seriously.

Only thing Stevie Lyle has on Ben Bowns is experience, ironic? I'm on my phone so I'm not going to look up the numbers but I'm willing to bet Lyle hasn't had a season as good as Bowns in the EIHL since he was under 30 years old (keep in mind Bowns was on a brutal team).


I guarantee there will be meaningless games in this tournament. 100% guarantee

You don't understand why I am saying not to. Yes I am saying they don't take them seriously, come on, the WC's are a joke to Canada. They can take a team full of kids and still win games, we can't, that's the point. If the NHL playoffs were not on at the same time Canada would take their best possible team to win.

You're wrong, Lyle had a great year for Cardiff last season, probably his best ever in the EIHL era.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

Lyle is a 79 born:

2009-10 Cardiff Devils EIHL 67 2.67 .911
2011-12 Cardiff Devils EIHL 62 2.55 .908

Also, in February Lyle was near enough a .935-.940 in the EPL, and was getting incredible plaudits by Bison fans.

What was Ben Bowns in the EIHL this year? 3.30gaa .905save%? Bowns probably made more saves this season then Lyle faced in 2011-12 And you left out 2010-11 which if I remember correct Cardiff finished top 4 while he had a save% under .900%?

 

[3 Minute Minor]

You don't understand why I am saying not to. Yes I am saying they don't take them seriously, come on, the WC's are a joke to Canada. They can take a team full of kids and still win games, we can't, that's the point. If the NHL playoffs were not on at the same time Canada would take their best possible team to win.

You're wrong, Lyle had a great year for Cardiff last season, probably his best ever in the EIHL era.

Mark Messier was the GM of Canada at the World Championships a couple years back. He was never a very serious guy in hockey Same with Steve Yzerman who actually got his job with Tampa because of his work with Team Canada.

The only people who say the World Championships don't matter to Canadians are the Canadian fans on hfboards after Canada loses

 

[Siamese Dream]

Mark Messier was the GM of Canada at the World Championships a couple years back. He was never a very serious guy in hockey Same with Steve Yzerman who actually got his job with Tampa because of his work with Team Canada.

The only people who say the World Championships don't matter to Canadians are the Canadian fans on hfboards after Canada loses

The same Mark Messier who had no previous GM experience.

Look we really don't care about Canada, it's great you can afford to send a team of kids aimed at development, but we can't, why is that so difficult to comprehend?

I think if you mention Canada in this section again, I won't bother responding to that post. This is the Western Europe section, not the look how great Canada are section. Yes Canada has the best development system in the world but most of that system is irrelevant to us because it wouldn't work here.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

The same Mark Messier who had no previous GM experience.

Look we really don't care about Canada, it's great you can afford to send a team of kids aimed at development, but we can't, why is that so difficult to comprehend?

I think if you mention Canada in this section again, I won't bother responding to that post. This is the Western Europe section, not the look how great Canada are section. Yes Canada has the best development system in the world but most of that system is irrelevant to us because it wouldn't work here.

When did I say send a team of kids aimed at development? I said give Ben Bowns 1 game roflmfao

 

[Siamese Dream]

When did I say send a team of kids aimed at development? I said give Ben Bowns 1 game roflmfao

That is pretty much what you are saying by comparing us to Canada

seriously just stop, everyone here disagrees with you

I don't disagree or have a problem with you saying give Ben Bowns a game, I have a problem and disagree with everything else you've said.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

That is pretty much what you are saying by comparing us to Canada

seriously just stop, everyone here disagrees with you

That's not at all what I said. Don't put words in my mouth then tell me to stop posting.

I said multiple times now that Canada was not a comparison. I'm using them as an example, saying they bring younger players to tournaments to give them experience because they know there's going to be a time when those players are thrown into situations where they're meant to be key players and if they have no experience to draw from then they likely won't be much help. It's the theory, not the program that I'm talking about but you're just hung up on the countries involved. They're certainly not the only team that does it. Here's another example for you, Oskar Bartulis 18 year old D-man in the QMJHL and he played a game for Latvia at the World Championships in 2005. They knew he'd be a key player for them down the road.

You guys are just overly defensive because a Canadian is making a suggestion using a Canadian example and ignoring the theory behind it.

 

[Siamese Dream]

That's not at all what I said. Don't put words in my mouth then tell me to stop posting.

I said multiple times now that Canada was not a comparison. I'm using them as an example, saying they bring younger players to tournaments to give them experience because they know there's going to be a time when those players are thrown into situations where they're meant to be key players and if they have no experience to draw from then they likely won't be much help. It's the theory, not the program that I'm talking about but you're just hung up one the countries involved. They're certainly not the only team that does it. Here's another example for you, Oskar Bartulis 18 year old D-man in the QMJHL and he played a game for Latvia at the World Championships in 2005. They knew he'd be a key player for them down the road.

You guys are just overly defensive because a Canadian is making a suggestion using a Canadian example and ignoring the theory behind it.

And the theory is irellevant as we've told you countless times Canada can do that and we can't. And again with the apple and orange comparisons, comparing giving a Dman a game to a goalie really?

We're not overly defensive, we are just completely baffled by your inability to comprehend the fact that we cannot do what Canada does.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

And the theory is irellevant as we've told you countless times Canada can do that and we can't. And again with the apple and orange comparisons, comparing giving a Dman a game to a goalie really?

We're not overly defensive, we are just completely baffled by your inability to comprehend the fact that we cannot do what Canada does.

The theory is irrelevant? A theory that has been used by thousands of hockey people around the world for many years is irrelevant? I can't tell if you're serious or just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. And again I'm not comparing, it's a ****ing example of a team giving a young player ice time so he has some experience playing international hockey, so when he's thrown into a key role later on, he knows what to expect.

I'm the one baffled by your inability to comprehend the theory and the fact that I've said 100 times in multiple conversations that I understand that Canada and GB are in 2 totally different situations but theories in player development don't change in these situations, regardless of what jersey you're wearing. Giving a player some experience in a situation that he'll be relied to perform in in the near future is obvious you don't wait until he's the only guy left then throw him into a tournament where you expect him to perform despite his complete lack of experience. And hey, remember when I said these tournament setups are broken and should have a playoff after the round robin? Well if they did that, they'd have no problem giving him a game in the round robin, or should they not do that because that's something that other countries would do?