Wayne Gretzky overrated

[Jim MacDonald]

Don't forget 56 games of Robb Stauber.

So Wayne is -56 for the decade, and there were 56 games where Stauber suited up for the Kings while Gretz was there. Coincidence? I don't think so!

ha ha ha!! wow....that was epic! he seriously wanted to join the rush!

 

[Captain Monglobster]

Hit 90 pts 2 out of last 3 years with decent/bad Rangers teams and half a back. What an overrated floater. Hed never make it in a tighter checkin....wait.

 

[Asheville]

Don't forget 56 games of Robb Stauber.

So Wayne is -56 for the decade, and there were 56 games where Stauber suited up for the Kings while Gretz was there. Coincidence? I don't think so!

Of course!

And how can I forget all stars like....
Pauli Jaks
David Goverde
Daniel Berthiaume
Mario Gosselin

You paying attention, Dennis Bonvie?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Of course!

And how can I forget all stars like....
Pauli Jaks
David Goverde
Daniel Berthiaume
Mario Gosselin

You paying attention, Dennis Bonvie?

Always.

Why do you ask?

 

[Asheville]

Always.

Why do you ask?

You put shit tons of stock in plus minus and have a history of tearing Gretzky down based on the stat post Edmonton. So I'm listing the crap goalies he played in front of post Edmonton to explain his poor plus minus, placing most of the blame on those goalies. I know you want to chime in on my suggestion.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You put **** tons of stock in plus minus and have a history of tearing Gretzky down based on the stat post Edmonton. So I'm listing the crap goalies he played in front of post Edmonton to explain his poor plus minus, placing most of the blame on those goalies. I know you want to chime in on my suggestion.

I consider 2 players in the history of the game to have been better than Gretzky. Orr & Howe.

I guess you consider that tearing Gretzky down. I don't.

As for the goalies in LA? There were 2 consecutive seasons where Gretzky led the team in scoring (one of them leading the league) but had the worst +/- on the team. That would mean all the players that were playing in front of those same terrible goaltenders still didn't have as bad a +/- as Gretzky.

 

[VictoriaJetsFan]

Is Gretzky overrated? No....not at all....its insane to suggest such a thing..

and I hated Gretzky and the Oilers back in the day.

 

[psycat]

Plenty of credible (hockey) people argue for Orr over Gretzky. Most of them saw both play.

As I said there is no credible way to make that argument. Orr played half a career to begin with.

 

[Killion]

As I said there is no credible way to make that argument. Orr played half a career to begin with.

There is psycat be you in Linkoping or Lexington, Ludwigshafen am Rhein or Livonia.. Entirely
credible, a great many believe it, have concluded such, will argue exactly that including myself.

 

[VanIslander]

No one in hockey history is near challenging Gretzky in terms of greatest passing ability ever.

I don't think that's in doubt.

Is it?

 

[Thenameless]

No one in hockey history is near challenging Gretzky in terms of greatest passing ability ever.

I don't think that's in doubt.

Is it?

"Is it?"

Who were you thinking, if you were thinking someone was comparable?

 

[VanIslander]

Is it in doubt?

(Not "Is there?" as in "is there anyone near challenging him?")

 

[billybudd]

The whole "inflated scoring in the 80s" line has become exaggerated by people who weren't there.

Ooh, I don't agree with that. At all. There were a lot of guys in the 80s who had 30 or 40 goal seasons who I doubt could crack 20 these days, with Dan Quinn being the first to come to mind. Even if you brought a prime Lemieux along to center him, there's still no way Quinn puts 30 behind a contemporary NHL netminder protected by a contemporary defense. Quinn just didn't have the tools.

I don't mean to diminish Gretzky or Yzerman (or whoever), but the "inflated scoring" in the 80s was simply a fact, not a mirage created by a handful of outlier stars.

 

[12345678910]

I remember going to see him rookie night in 1979. I was only little but I was carried away with the grace he was bestowed with.


There will never be another Wayne. Another GREAT ONE

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

He's not overrated. But his two biggest adversaries were strucken with serious illness and injury in the midst of there prime years.

That would be like Ali never having to really fight foreman or Frazier ever in his career while they were in there prime.

However we have the 88-89 season

Health for both
23 vs 27
Lemieux 199
Gretzky 168

The one and only time both were prime and healthy

 

[daver]

He's not overrated. But his two biggest adversaries were strucken with serious illness and injury in the midst of there prime years.

That would be like Ali never having to really fight foreman or Frazier ever in his career while they were in there prime.

However we have the 88-89 season

Health for both
23 vs 27
Lemieux 199
Gretzky 168

The one and only time both were prime and healthy

Why can't we consider Mario to be in his prime prior to 88/89? And why should we consider Wayne to be still in his prime in 88/89?

 

[The Panther]

He's not overrated. But his two biggest adversaries were strucken with serious illness and injury in the midst of there prime years.

That would be like Ali never having to really fight foreman or Frazier ever in his career while they were in there prime.

However we have the 88-89 season

Health for both
23 vs 27
Lemieux 199
Gretzky 168

The one and only time both were prime and healthy

 

[PhilJets]

Arguing against the one player who owns almost major offensive statiscal category.
Demolishing the competition in most is futile.

He is the best and he is not overated.

 

[blogofmike]

Why can't we consider Mario to be in his prime prior to 88/89? And why should we consider Wayne to be still in his prime in 88/89?

A) Because Mario didn't have the best stats of his life in other years (1989 Mario even had more points through 60 games than 1993 Mario)

B) Because Mario didn't have 491 PP opportunities in MOST other years

C) Because Gretzky would have too many points if you used one of his 5 or 6 best years. So his 9th(?) best season will have to do.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Why can't we consider Mario to be in his prime prior to 88/89? And why should we consider Wayne to be still in his prime in 88/89?

So the goat player was not in his prime at 27 years old. Looks like Crosby ovechkin and malkin past their prime long ago.
As soon as Lemieux reached age 22-23 and Gretzky was 26-27 he had his equal

 

[daver]

So the goat player was not in his prime at 27 years old. Looks like Crosby ovechkin and malkin past their prime long ago.
As soon as Lemieux reached age 22-23 and Gretzky was 26-27 he had his equal

For one season, Mario reached Wayne's peak/prime, not surpassed it.

Why wasn't Mario in his prime before 88/89?

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Without commenting on the Gretzky thing (he's undoubtedly the best ever even if adjusted for league scoring)..scoring was definitely notably inflated and higher than any era in NHL history other than the depleted wartime league. Not every game ended 12-10, but I was around in the 80s and seeing a team score 8 or 9 goals wasn't that rare and games with 10-12 goals in them between both clubs happened on a near daily basis.

Of course there were teams with good defenses in those years..like the Flyers, Habs and Capitals. But a good defense then meant giving up 240-280 goals in 80 games. Nowadays good defensive teams give up 180-200 goals in 82 games.

A team giving up 240 goals today is most likely one of the worse teams in the league and is going to miss the playoffs, 280 goals would make you easily the worst defense in the league and you'd be accused of tanking. And I am aware that this year is the highest-scoring season since the 'new' post-lockout NHL in 2005/06 and one of the highest since the mid 90s.

 

[blogofmike]

So the goat player was not in his prime at 27 years old. Looks like Crosby ovechkin and malkin past their prime long ago.
As soon as Lemieux reached age 22-23 and Gretzky was 26-27 he had his equal

I believe people who have studied this have found that scorers tend to peak in their early 20s. Around age 23 -25.

As for Gretzky and Lemieux, here's their 100 ES-point seasons:

		Year	Age	ES Points
1	Gretzky	1982	21	147
2	Gretzky	1985	24	146
3	Gretzky	1986	25	143
4	Gretzky	1984	23	135
5	Gretzky	1983	22	132
6	Gretzky	1987	26	124
7	Gretzky	1981	20	104
8	Gretzky	1991	30	103
9	Lemieux	1989	23	102
10	Gretzky	1989	28	100
10	Gretzky	1981	20	100

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So you can argue prime vs prime (assuming a 12-year prime for Gretzky), but more accurately it's the apex/peak/best of Mario's prime matching up against a declining/off-peak/end of his prime Gretzky who had tailed off.

Lemieux may have edged his way into fringe Gretzky prime territory, but he never approached peak Gretzky.

 

[Asheville]

A) Because Mario didn't have the best stats of his life in other years (1989 Mario even had more points through 60 games than 1993 Mario)

B) Because Mario didn't have 491 PP opportunities in MOST other years

C) Because Gretzky would have too many points if you used one of his 5 or 6 best years. So his 9th(?) best season will have to do.

Glorious post needs more love

 

[Staniowski]

I believe people who have studied this have found that scorers tend to peak in their early 20s. Around age 23 -25.

As for Gretzky and Lemieux, here's their 100 ES-point seasons:

		Year	Age	ES Points
1	Gretzky	1982	21	147
2	Gretzky	1985	24	146
3	Gretzky	1986	25	143
4	Gretzky	1984	23	135
5	Gretzky	1983	22	132
6	Gretzky	1987	26	124
7	Gretzky	1981	20	104
8	Gretzky	1991	30	103
9	Lemieux	1989	23	102
10	Gretzky	1989	28	100
10	Gretzky	1981	20	100

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So you can argue prime vs prime (assuming a 12-year prime for Gretzky), but more accurately it's the apex/peak/best of Mario's prime matching up against a declining/off-peak/end of his prime Gretzky who had tailed off.

Lemieux may have edged his way into fringe Gretzky prime territory, but he never approached peak Gretzky.

Blogofmike, I'm trying to understand this chart....are you saying that Lemieux's best season is about the same quality as Gretzky's 10th best season, and that this judgement is based solely on even-strength points?

That appears to be what you're saying.

If so, why would you use even-strength points as the sole criterion?