Wayne Gretzky overrated

[Danny46]

Don't get me wrong, I think Gretzky was a genius and one of the best ever, I just think that his numbers put him in a category that sounds like he was much better than anyone else that ever played the game, and that's just not the case and what makes him overrated in my opinion. I think he had the best career from start to end, but for me Lemieux and Orr at their peaks were better players than Gretzky at his peak. I think everything played in Gretzky favour to have those kind of numbers, the Oilers offence, the 80's in my opinion were one of the weakest eras in terms of goalies in the NHL, Fuhr and Smith were the 2 best (they were good but not on the level of the best goalies of the 90's), and Roy is more associated with the 90's.

I am starting this thread because when people talk about hockey it is like it is a undisputable truth that Gretzky was the best ever, when in fact other guys have a argument for the GOAT claim.

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[Doctor No]

If we assume your premise that "when people talk about hockey it is like it is a undisputable truth that Gretzky was the best ever", then your conclusion is sound. Among the people that you talk hockey with, perhaps Gretzky is overrated.

On the other hand, I'd recommend finding a more educated set of people to talk hockey with. Here, for instance.

 

[VanIslander]

... for me Lemieux and Orr at their peaks were better players than Gretzky at his peak...

Many think so.

Peak vs. career is always an issue in terms of where players stand, all things considered. Gretzky and Howe are often compared in terms of career, Orr and Lemieux in terms of peak.

I don't see the issue here. How is Gretzky overrated?

 

[BobbyAwe]

Gretzky's stats can be said to be somewhat inflated because of the era he mostly played in and the team he mostly played on, but no matter how you figure it he's still way ahead of anyone else points wise (except for Lemieux on a point per game basis). I agree the only way he's overrated is if he is AUTOMATICALLY chosen as the greatest ever.

 

[Killion]

I don't see the issue here. How is Gretzky overrated?

Certainly not amongst this group here at hf HOH, no, definitely not "overrated". More a case of being objectively "appreciated, amazed".... not without faults however & yes, those often brought up, to the fore.

 

[Pandaman11]

I think everything played in Gretzky favour to have those kind of numbers, the Oilers offence

Chicken-egg question. Was he good because of the Oilers or the Oilers good because of him.

the Oilers offence, the 80's in my opinion were one of the weakest eras in terms of goalies in the NHL

So why did nobody else score 200+ points, including members of that great Oilers offence?

 

[bobholly39]

The thing I find the most admirable about Gretzky is how he managed to be the best, all the time.

To make a parallel look at Usain Bolt. Bolt is amazing because of his insane world records. But even moreso - at every single olympics, he won the gold, everytime. Never faltered.

Gretzky is similar. In every season he won the Ross (till he slowed/Lemieux peaked) and also Hart.
Much moreso - in every playoff run he was also the leading scorer.
In every international tournament? Yep - also leading scorer.

He's a scorer and he always was the top scorer without fail. Which is commendable.

Orr and Lemieux had more ups and downs in my opinion (even health aside).

 

[Killion]

I agree the only way he's overrated is if he is AUTOMATICALLY chosen as the greatest ever.

Right. The Lazy Mans way to go about it. Doesnt cut it here, elsewhere. To simply state "Gretzky is the Greatest Ever" is a superficial declaration, shallow. Doesnt cut it for me, plenty of others.

 

[BobbyAwe]

Chicken-egg question. Was he good because of the Oilers or the Oilers good because of him.

He would have been great on any team, but he may not have gotten 200 points on a lesser team.

So why did nobody else score 200+ points, including members of that great Oilers offence?

I'm not arguing he wasn't the best on that team, but put Mario in his place during those years and do you think there would be much difference in their totals?

 

[BobbyAwe]

Right. The Lazy Mans way to go about it. Doesnt cut it here, elsewhere. To simply state "Gretzky is the Greatest Ever" is a superficial declaration, shallow. Doesnt cut it for me, plenty of others.

I agree. First of all, the "greatest player ever" needs more specification. I don't think we can compare forwards and defensemen that accurately. (Not to mention skaters with goalies which doesn't even make sense IMO) I have no problem with naming Wayne and Mario the 2 greatest forwards ever, but I don't think you can pick one above the other without really splitting hairs? Some one like Howe would make up some ground against them when we consider he was more physical and checked more, but I still don't think that would make up for the point differential even when we take into account scoring in the different era's? As for Orr, I think it's apples and oranges. I DO believe, given equal goaltending, "5 Orr's" would beat "5 Gretzky's", but admittedly there's too much fantasizing necessary there.

 

[tony d]

Wayne Gretzky was a lot of things during his career. Not sure over rated was 1 of them. To me he's the best ever.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I agree. First of all, the "greatest player ever" needs more specification. I don't think we can compare forwards and defensemen that accurately. (Not to mention skaters with goalies which doesn't even make sense IMO) I have no problem with naming Wayne and Mario the 2 greatest forwards ever but I don't think you can pick one above the other without really splitting hairs? Some one like Howe would make up some ground against them when we consider he was more physical and checked more, but I still don't think that would make up for the point differential even when we take into account scoring in the different era's? As for Orr, I think it's apples and oranges. I DO believe, given equal goaltending, "5 Orr's" would beat "5 Gretzky's", but admittedly there's too much fantasizing necessary there.

I have a problem with that.

It should be Gretzky or Howe with Lemieux just a bit below.

 

[authentic]

Chicken-egg question. Was he good because of the Oilers or the Oilers good because of him.

So why did nobody else score 200+ points, including members of that great Oilers offence?

That's not really the question we should be asking since we know the Oilers won a Cup without him. Personally I believe what he scored the season after he left Edmonton is more in line with what he would've scored on just about any team other than Edmonton. He was not better than Lemieux IMO, he was just much healthier and in more fortunate circumstances throughout most of his career for putting up points.

 

[mrhockey193195]

I'm not arguing he wasn't the best on that team, but put Mario in his place during those years and do you think there would be much difference in their totals?

Now, this is the fun stuff, isn't it! These guys (Gretz, Mario, Orr, and Howe) transcended the sport. I am inclined to say that you put them in any era on any team, and they still rise to be the four greatest players of all time (by a wide margin). Hell, all of them were on mediocre teams at one point in time (well, maybe not Bobby) and dominated. We were lucky enough to witness them on powerhouse teams as well.

Here's the fun thing with flipping Mario and Wayne. Mario's work ethic when he was younger left a lot to be desired (and yet he still could score 140 points!). He himself says it was Wayne's work ethic (and choice words) at the 87 Canada Cup that changed his outlook, and motivated him to eat better/stop smoking/take care of his body. It was after that tournament that he truly ascended to the Mount Rushmore of hockey. 140 points became ~200 points.

So what happens if you take that Mario and switch him with Wayne? He no longer has the greatest player in the world (at the time) to shame him into becoming even better. Maybe Mario is satisfied with regular 140 point seasons, and then Wayne joins the league in 84-85 and surpasses him right from season 1 or 2. Maybe Mario never hits that extra gear and is in the same category as Esposito/Beliveau/Mikita, rather than Gretzky.

Do I think that scenario is likely? Probably not, I personally think that Mario would have found motivation from somewhere and would have found that extra gear at some point. But it's a fun thought experiment!

Another thought experiment...do Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, etc. develop into the caliber of player that we know them as today without Gretzky's insane work ethic and leadership to drive them from day one? Does a less motivated Mario change the equation for that team?

Similarly, how does Gretzky develop on Pittsburgh without *any* hall of fame talent surrounding him those first five or six seasons? Does he get fed up? Does he leave and go elsewhere?

There's no answering, only postulation & debate. I could chat about this for hours (preferably over a couple drinks!)


EDIT: I know I didn't really answer your question, but I couldn't help myself!

 

[TomatoJos]

What a provocative statement.

Well.. To be honest... Gretzky is slightly overrated.

Talking skaters, I'd rank Bobby Orr above him. Orr is all-time No. 1 on my list.

Gretzky is sharing the 2nd-5th places with Howe, Lemieux and Fetisov.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Gretzky's stats can be said to be somewhat inflated because of the era he mostly played in and the team he mostly played on, but no matter how you figure it he's still way ahead of anyone else points wise (except for Lemieux on a point per game basis). I agree the only way he's overrated is if he is AUTOMATICALLY chosen as the greatest ever.

Gretzky's stats are not somewhat inflated due to era. They are MASSIVELY inflated due to era.

If people are comparing his point totals in a season where the average game included 8 goals to players today where an average game has 5.3 goals, then yes, Gretzky is wildly overrated. And yes, the average fan does this all the time. Every record Gretzky holds is inflated for reasons that were completely outside his control and completely inequitable to players from all other eras.

Here is why Gretzky is the greatest of all time AINEC:

Lead the league in points 11 times. 8 consecutive.
Lead the league in goals 5 times. 4 consecutive.
Was named league MVP 9 times.

There is nobody who can touch that. Nobody comes close. Nobody dominated their peers like Gretzky, and this is the most objective measurement. Howe is closest IMO with 6 Art Ross, 5 times goal leader, 6 time MVP.

 

[Ducks in a row]

Gretzky's stats are not somewhat inflated due to era. They are MASSIVELY inflated due to era.

If people are comparing his point totals in a season where the average game included 8 goals to players today where an average game has 5.3 goals, then yes, Gretzky is wildly overrated. And yes, the average fan does this all the time. Every record Gretzky holds is inflated for reasons that were completely outside his control and completely inequitable to players from all other eras.

Here is why Gretzky is the greatest of all time AINEC:

Lead the league in points 11 times. 8 consecutive.
Lead the league in goals 5 times. 4 consecutive.
Was named league MVP 9 times.

There is nobody who can touch that. Nobody comes close. Nobody dominated their peers like Gretzky, and this is the most objective measurement. Howe is closest IMO with 6 Art Ross, 5 times goal leader, 6 time MVP.

Also you have to look at his career totals. Heck just look at his assists totals compared to other players points totals.

 

[Mandar]

I guess when anyone is deemed to be the "best ever" at anything, there will always be differing opinions....and those who think that individual is "overrated". I'm sure there are people who think Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, Alfred Einstein, etc. were overrated as well.

 

[TomatoJos]

I guess when anyone is deemed to be the "best ever" at anything, there will always be differing opinions....and those who think that individual is "overrated". I'm sure there are people who think Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, Alfred Einstein, etc. were overrated as well.

Who's Alfred Einstein?

 

[Mandar]

Who's Alfred Einstein?

yes, sorry...Albert Einstein. Alfred was his little known cousin who was DEFINITELY overrated.

 

[Iapyi]

gretzky was MUCH better then anyone else. to call him over-rated is ludicrous.

what the young 'uns don't understand about the 80's is that it was so high scoring BECAUSE of gretzky. he was not a product of the times, he made the times what they were.

i feel sorry for those that didn't get to watch him play.

he was the clear cut best player in history, and to be frank, it's not even close.

 

[Reindl87]

gretzky was MUCH better then anyone else. to call him over-rated is ludicrous.

what the young 'uns don't understand about the 80's is that it was so high scoring BECAUSE of gretzky. he was not a product of the times, he made the times what they were.

i feel sorry for those that didn't get to watch him play.

he was the clear cut best player in history, and to be frank, it's not even close.

Sorry, but that's a ridicilous Statement. A single payer, even Gretzky, has a minimal effect on the leauge averages in Terms of Goals per game.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Gretzky made the 80s look like a video game. He was also the highest scoring player in the 90s too. So that's two decades of being a dominant figure, yet we are going to say that he is a product of the high flying 80s?.....he was even a top player towards the end of his career.

Before Lemieux hit his peak, Gretzky was out scoring his next opponent by almost 100 points at his best. He had more assists than the 2nd leading scorer had points.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Sorry, but that's a ridicilous Statement. A single payer, even Gretzky, has a minimal effect on the leauge averages in Terms of Goals per game.

Take Gretzky and Lemieux out of the game all together, the 80s are still higher scoring, but not nearly as high and as "terrible" as people like to make it out to be. The highest scoring season would Be 155 points by Yzerman in '89.

 

[The Panther]

The whole "inflated scoring in the 80s" line has become exaggerated by people who weren't there. Of course, scoring was higher on average, but it's not like every game was 12-9. There were teams in the 80s who allowed fewer goals than many teams do today -- Gretzky still dominated them.

In playoffs, scoring normally went way down in the 80s because the worst teams were out, and because teams tightened up. Gretzky still dominated.

International hockey? Canadians vs. the Soviet machine? Swedes? Finns? Gretzky dominated them all.

So, get back to me when someone wins 8 straight MVP awards. Or 7. Or 6. Or 5.