OT: Was Today the Darkest Day in Sharks History?

[Gilligans Island]

Joe's separated shoulder.

That certainly wrecked our chances against the Canucks in 2011. Losing Demers in the Wings series prior was bad - it took away a key PMD that year.

Michalek (2006). Not so much in losing him - though it messed up our 2nd line - but I think it scared the Sharks and they cowered after that.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Name a worse one.



Vlasic is the closest thing to a singular difference between winning and losing on our team and in fact in this series, he likely was the single difference between winning and losing. The key to beating the Kings is to not let them put you behind the 8-ball and to attack quickly through the neutral zone. Losing Vlasic destroyed our ability to check the Kings' top line and dragged down our neutral zone attack.



Powerplay QBing =/= puck moving. Puck moving means moving the puck up ice, especially out of the defensive zone and through the neutral zone. Vlasic took the toughest assignments with hard defensive deployments, and was able to move the puck to an astounding degree, second on the team only to Joe Thornton and the best D-man.

http://www.inlouwetrust.com/2011/7/3/2257653/what-exactly-is-a-puck-moving-defenseman-anyway
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1590133

Dan Boyle at the end is actually a perfect example of a PPQB that was not one of the better PMDs on the team (and his decline is a big part of the reason we had trouble generating offense from the defense). He was actually the most sheltered D-man this year.

Jason Demers being out when they lost to Vancouver in the conference finals was worse than Vlasic this year. Demers was arguably the difference between losing there and winning the Stanley Cup. This was a first round loss that even a healthy Vlasic wasn't going to push this team to the Cup.

I disagree that he was the single biggest difference in winning and losing. They were jobbing game five before he got hurt. A lot of the little things that they were falling behind on had little to do with what Vlasic brings and what Irwin brought when he was inserted. The Kings top line was already making things happen even with Vlasic in.

Puck movement entering the attacking zone is just as important as breaking out as well as puck movement to keep the puck in. Boyle's puck movement issues had to do with his decision making more than his actual puck skills. Vlasic's puck skills are not all that good. His absence was a factor but one of many.

 

[Irbes Mask]

Name a worse one.

Marco's ankle.

Milan's concussion.

 

[hohosaregood]

That certainly wrecked our chances against the Canucks in 2011. Losing Demers in the Wings series prior was bad - it took away a key PMD that year.

Michalek (2006). Not so much in losing him - though it messed up our 2nd line - but I think it scared the Sharks and they cowered after that.

And that's why Torres has been a terrifying force in just about every playoff he's been in and maybe a little less so now but he can still be one if he's truly turned the corner on the dirtiness.

Also, totally forgot about Demers somehow.

 

[Gilligans Island]

Marco's ankle.

Marco's was the year we lost to the Flames in the WCF, right? I'd go with that one. On paper we should have killed the Flames but his loss + Kipper playing insane, killed us.

As for losing Vlasic this year, I don't think it's the biggest b/c even with him - and assuming we get past the Kings - I'm not so sure we get past the Ducks and Hawks. The Ducks gave us fits all year and the Hawks are still better than us.

 

[Alwalys]

Joe's separated shoulder.

Not even close to close, he played with that separated shoulder and dominated.

Jason Demers being out when they lost to Vancouver in the conference finals was worse than Vlasic this year. Demers was arguably the difference between losing there and winning the Stanley Cup.

Demers was at best a #4 d-man in that situation. Yes we missed his depth but losing a #1 d-man is far, far worse.

Puck movement entering the attacking zone is just as important as breaking out as well as puck movement to keep the puck in. Boyle's puck movement issues had to do with his decision making more than his actual puck skills. Vlasic's puck skills are not all that good. His absence was a factor but one of many.

Entering the zone is dependent on breakout and neutral zone transition. Screw either of those up and the zone entries suffer. This team did not lack in-zone puck control. However Vlasic is no slouch at that, he is just not tasked with doing it. Vlasic's puck skills are very good, that's a ridiculous assertion.

Marco's ankle.

Didn't happen in the playoffs. Didn't even happen after the trade deadline.

Milan's concussion.

No. Obviously a 2nd line winger doesn't compare on its face to a #1D, but we all know Milan's concussion affected team psyche more than anything. He even returned in the series.

Come on guys. Vlasic was arguably the MVP for this team, we have never lost someone even arguably that in the playoffs. This is exactly what I mean when I say people understate it.

 

[Irbes Mask]

Not even close to close, he played with that separated shoulder and dominated.



Demers was at best a #4 d-man in that situation. Yes we missed his depth but losing a #1 d-man is far, far worse.



Entering the zone is dependent on breakout and neutral zone transition. Screw either of those up and the zone entries suffer. This team did not lack in-zone puck control. However Vlasic is no slouch at that, he is just not tasked with doing it. Vlasic's puck skills are very good, that's a ridiculous assertion.



Didn't happen in the playoffs. Didn't even happen after the trade deadline.



No. Obviously a 2nd line winger doesn't compare on its face to a #1D, but we all know Milan's concussion affected team psyche more than anything. He even returned in the series.

Come on guys. Vlasic was arguably the MVP for this team, we have never lost someone even arguably that in the playoffs. This is exactly what I mean when I say people understate it.

Shake your head all you want, it derailed the season, and vastly altered his career. No? It completely altered the landscape of that series. The Sharks were afraid. So what if he came back in the series. You can put your fingers in your ears and stubbornly hold only your ideas, but plenty of folks have given you examples on why you're wrong. Do you even follow the same team as everyone else? The way it reads, I'm not sure.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Not even close to close, he played with that separated shoulder and dominated.



Demers was at best a #4 d-man in that situation. Yes we missed his depth but losing a #1 d-man is far, far worse.



Entering the zone is dependent on breakout and neutral zone transition. Screw either of those up and the zone entries suffer. This team did not lack in-zone puck control. However Vlasic is no slouch at that, he is just not tasked with doing it. Vlasic's puck skills are very good, that's a ridiculous assertion.



Didn't happen in the playoffs. Didn't even happen after the trade deadline.



No. Obviously a 2nd line winger doesn't compare on its face to a #1D, but we all know Milan's concussion affected team psyche more than anything. He even returned in the series.

Come on guys. Vlasic was arguably the MVP for this team, we have never lost someone even arguably that in the playoffs. This is exactly what I mean when I say people understate it.

You can marginalize Demers all you want but the year he got hurt, it was his precise skills and position that was the reason why they couldn't beat Vancouver. You can't say the same for Vlasic this year because it simply wasn't his skills that was the reason they lost. They had many, many reasons they lost to the Kings and oversimplifying it to Vlasic being the reason is being disingenuous.

Vlasic's impact on zone entries were minimal because he didn't do them. He moved the puck up to the forwards which is fine. But quality PMD's are capable of taking the puck through the neutral zone themselves and making the play entering the zone. Things that Vlasic hasn't done much at all. Zone entries aren't really all that dependent on breaking out of your own zone. The transition, yes. Either way, Vlasic wasn't a catalyst for them.

And no, Vlasic's puck skills are not very good. He's average at best.

 

[Gilligans Island]

Shake your head all you want, it derailed the season, and vastly altered his career. No? It completely altered the landscape of that series. The Sharks were afraid. So what if he came back in the series. You can put your fingers in your ears and stubbornly hold only your ideas, but plenty of folks have given you examples on why you're wrong. Do you even follow the same team as everyone else? The way it reads, I'm not sure.

Phu sounds like posters over at FearTheFin. I read that often and there are a lot of groupthinkers all pointing to Vlasic's injury as the sole reason we lost to the Kings.

 

[Alwalys]

Zone entries aren't really all that dependent on breaking out of your own zone. The transition, yes. Either way, Vlasic wasn't a catalyst for them.

They absolutely are and Vlasic is a catalyst for all of it as our best PMD. If the breakout is hesistant, slow, or inaccurate, it at best pressures the transition and causes issues all the way up the ice. Most often it results in a bad transition play and a loss of the puck on entry or a heavily pressured entry that results in no zonetime.

The neutral zone attack relies on timing and that all starts with breaking out of the D-zone. Vlasic gets it out of our D-zone and to players with time and space more efficiently than any other D currently on the roster that played D last season.

Part of the reason for that is his sure-handedness with the puck. He has excellent puck skills. He doesn't kill odd-mans and accumulate that monster Corsi by having poor puck skills.

 

[hohosaregood]

Phu sounds like posters over at FearTheFin. I read that often and there are a lot of groupthinkers all pointing to Vlasic's injury as the sole reason we lost to the Kings.

There's no denying that the injury had a pretty big impact on the series but there were some other worse issues at hand. Vlasic's offensive contributions come with the fact that the offense and his defense partner can take risks in their play, as well as Vlasic's ability to keep the play alive in the offensive zone. However, even when Vlasic was around in game 4, the team was starting to stagnate. There were just bigger problems with just about every other aspect except for Braun and the 3rd line.

 

[weastern bias]

On paper we should have killed the Flames but his loss + Kipper playing insane, killed us.

Don't get me wrong here, I love Eddie Pickles almost irrationally

But if the Sharks never trade Kiprusoff they win the cup in 04

 

[Alwalys]

There's no denying that the injury had a pretty big impact on the series but there were some other worse issues at hand. Vlasic's offensive contributions come with the fact that the offense and his defense partner can take risks in their play, as well as Vlasic's ability to keep the play alive in the offensive zone. However, even when Vlasic was around in game 4, the team was starting to stagnate. There were just bigger problems with just about every other aspect except for Braun and the 3rd line.

Game 4 was actually the best possession game the team played in the entire series. Don't confuse the effects of an 80% save percentage with the team "stagnating" whatever that means. That game was on Niemi and if he turns in a decent performance there's a good chance we sweep.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

They absolutely are and Vlasic is a catalyst for all of it as our best PMD. If the breakout is hesistant, slow, or inaccurate, it at best pressures the transition and causes issues all the way up the ice. Most often it results in a bad transition play and a loss of the puck on entry or a heavily pressured entry that results in no zonetime.

The neutral zone attack relies on timing and that all starts with breaking out of the D-zone. Vlasic gets it out of our D-zone and to players with time and space more efficiently than any other D currently on the roster that played D last season.

Part of the reason for that is his sure-handedness with the puck. He has excellent puck skills. He doesn't kill odd-mans and accumulate that monster Corsi by having poor puck skills.

You're putting far too much emphasis on the breakout with regards to zone entry success and I disagree that Vlasic was a catalyst for it. He played a part but he was not the best at it. Last year, nobody got it out of the defensive zone better and cleaner than Braun and Demers. Vlasic was close behind but there's a clear gap between those two and Pickles.

Killing odd-man rushes has nothing to do with puck skills. It has to do with positioning and stick placement. Puck skills are passing (giving and receiving), stickhandling, and shooting. Things that Vlasic got better at but is not the best on the team at. The monster Corsi is attributed to many different things that makes it disingenuous to give all that credit to Vlasic's puck skills.

 

[hohosaregood]

Game 4 was actually the best possession game the team played in the entire series. Don't confuse the effects of an 80% save percentage with the team "stagnating" whatever that means. That game was on Niemi and if he turns in a decent performance there's a good chance we sweep.

The team was clearly starting to drop the style of play that brought success in games 1-3. That's what I mean by stagnating regardless of Niemi ******** the bed.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Don't get me wrong here, I love Eddie Pickles almost irrationally

But if the Sharks never trade Kiprusoff they win the cup in 04

It was either trade him or waive him and if Calgary didn't get him, it doesn't mean that any of the teams that they beat couldn't have beaten that Sharks team nor does it mean that the Sharks beat the Lightning anyway.

 

[Led Zappa]

Phu sounds like posters over at FearTheFin. I read that often and there are a lot of groupthinkers all pointing to Vlasic's injury as the sole reason we lost to the Kings.

The group think around here does the exact opposite.

I rarely visit FTF site and never the forum and I agree, losing Vlasic was the single biggest issue with our 4 game losing streak. There is no way to prove one way or another, but am I going to listen to a board that always thinks the worst about this team? Not bloody likely. We go down a goal during the regular season and half of this board acts as though our season is over.

This was one of the best Sharks teams ever and we all knew it's weakness. So did the Kings and they did something about it. We lost and suddenly we could see it all along. We just weren't good enough. This team is built around a bunch mental midgets the board says.

Yeah, not buying it.

 

[weastern bias]

It was either trade him or waive him and if Calgary didn't get him, it doesn't mean that any of the teams that they beat couldn't have beaten that Sharks team nor does it mean that the Sharks beat the Lightning anyway.

I'm talking more of an alternate scenario where we kept Kipper over Nabby

I think Kipper in his prime takes the Sharks to the cup, if not in 04, then in one of those Post-Lockout "Should Have" years

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I'm talking more of an alternate scenario where we kept Kipper over Nabby

I think Kipper in his prime takes the Sharks to the cup, if not in 04, then in one of those Post-Lockout "Should Have" years

Kipper doesn't become the goalie he did unless the Sharks moved him. He doesn't play that way in San Jose.

 

[Alwalys]

You're putting far too much emphasis on the breakout with regards to zone entry success and I disagree that Vlasic was a catalyst for it. He played a part but he was not the best at it. Last year, nobody got it out of the defensive zone better and cleaner than Braun and Demers. Vlasic was close behind but there's a clear gap between those two and Pickles.

Selective memory there, you won't find objective backing for that. Demers had some beautiful up passes but he also had many horrendous turnovers and he was prone to being "off the mark" for stretches. Braun is good at moving the puck out but he was not better than Vlasic at it last year. Some of that may be because he was saddled with crappier partners, but some is also because he doesn't win pucks quite as well as Vlasic or move them as confidently. He is not that far behind though, just needs more experience.

Killing odd-man rushes has nothing to do with puck skills. It has to do with positioning and stick placement. Puck skills are passing (giving and receiving), stickhandling, and shooting. Things that Vlasic got better at but is not the best on the team at. The monster Corsi is attributed to many different things that makes it disingenuous to give all that credit to Vlasic's puck skills.

Oh it has plenty to do with puck skills, yes he has great positioning and stick positioning but he routinely knocks down saucer passes and turns them back up ice quickly. We have players who get sticks on pucks but can't do anything with them fast enough. No one said he's the best on the team but he is very good with the puck. He wouldn't be the elite player he is if he wasn't.

 

[weastern bias]

Kipper doesn't become the goalie he did unless the Sharks moved him. He doesn't play that way in San Jose.

I suppose that's every bit as valid as my "what if?"

 

[LeeIFBB]

May 13, 2003.

 

[OrrNumber4]

That certainly wrecked our chances against the Canucks in 2011. Losing Demers in the Wings series prior was bad - it took away a key PMD that year.

Jason Demers being out when they lost to Vancouver in the conference finals was worse than Vlasic this year. Demers was arguably the difference between losing there and winning the Stanley Cup. This was a first round loss that even a healthy Vlasic wasn't going to push this team to the Cup.

I don't know if Demers turns 3 Sharks losses into a win. The main problem for SJ in that series, was their inability to solve Luongo. I cannot see Demers doing that.

Also, the Sharks put themselves in a position where JT and Demers were injured by not finishing Detroit off quickly.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Selective memory there, you won't find objective backing for that. Demers had some beautiful up passes but he also had many horrendous turnovers and he was prone to being "off the mark" for stretches. Braun is good at moving the puck out but he was not better than Vlasic at it last year. Some of that may be because he was saddled with crappier partners, but some is also because he doesn't win pucks quite as well as Vlasic or move them as confidently. He is not that far behind though, just needs more experience.



Oh it has plenty to do with puck skills, yes he has great positioning and stick positioning but he routinely knocks down saucer passes and turns them back up ice quickly. We have players who get sticks on pucks but can't do anything with them fast enough. No one said he's the best on the team but he is very good with the puck. He wouldn't be the elite player he is if he wasn't.

Demers took more risks because his puck skills and vision are better than Vlasic that he is afforded that privilege. Vlasic rarely made any up passes because he either can't or won't. Either way, it's limiting to his skill set that it is that way. Vlasic is every bit as good as either Braun or Demers at making the release passes that are short and fairly conservative. But that's not an offensive catalyst and it isn't really him that is making the play in that scenario regarding neutral zone advancement and zone entries. There's a reason why Braun and Demers had far more takeaways than Vlasic and puck skills is a big part of that.

The amount of times that Vlasic actually knocks down a saucer pass and turns it up the ice is minimal. You only bring it up because it sticks out the most in your mind but it didn't happen that often. And let's be real here. Vlasic is elite defensively. That's where his elite status ends and you don't necessarily have to be the best at puck skills to get to that level. He had a good year with his puck play this year but he was not at any point the best PMD on this team.

I suppose that's every bit as valid as my "what if?"

He got traded because he was playing at a level here that landed him 3rd on the goalie chart behind Nabby and Toskala. If they moved either of the other two, he's still the backup. Where is he supposed to get the chance to do what he did in that short of time to perform at that level realistically?

He turned the corner because he was pissed off that he got traded and was afforded the opportunity to start and it clicked for him. That wasn't going to happen in San Jose.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I don't know if Demers turns 3 Sharks losses into a win. The main problem for SJ in that series, was their inability to solve Luongo. I cannot see Demers doing that.

Also, the Sharks put themselves in a position where JT and Demers were injured by not finishing Detroit off quickly.

Their problem was defense more than anything. Demers out put Huskins in and increased Wallin and Ian White's responsibilities which was their downfall. With Demers in, they would've spent much less time in their own zone especially the way he was playing that year.

By my recollection, Demers was playing hurt early on in the Detroit series and they eventually just sat him when the series changed over for whatever reason...I want to say it was game 4 that he got hurt.