OT: Was Today the Darkest Day in Sharks History?

[SnarkAttack]

The rebuild+ losing Drew will make the games less enjoyable to watch. I'd hope our fanbase doesn't decline in viewership, but it could. If the TV deal right now sucks and is causing friction, I don't think worsening the on-ice product is going to help. A rebuild will likely take the Sharks out of the playoff hunt, especially in the West.

Definitely not the darkest day, but the direction scares the crap outta me.

 

[ChompChomp]

Darkest day? IMHO, there has been worse. Far worse.

How about Espo (admittedly, he's said on the air on NHL radio) ****** the Sharks out of the #1 overall so he could get Vinny Lecavalier (after the Sharks smartly moved Viktor Koslov to Fla for their 1st round pick, which turned out to be #1 overall)? [The Marchment trade where the Sharks agreed if the FLA pick was #1 overall, it would go to TB, but if TB had #1 overall, they'd still keep that pick, I'm sorry, it wasn't worth giving up Vinny]

How about Larionov dealt WITH a conditional pick to Red Wings for Ray Sheppard?

How about the day they waived Ray Whitney?

How about the day they traded for Ed Belfour?

I think there are more examples.

 

[Coy]

Maybe it's not the worst day but yesterday was unique in feeling for me. It felt like we started tipping over the edge of a cliff. I have never felt very uneasy about the Sharks before (disappointed and discouraged yes but not uneasy). Yesterday just seemed like a foreshadowing of what is to come.

 

[Alwalys]

Come on now, you're being overly melodramatic. Drew was just one guy, the internet exists, you can find your Sharks fix. He wasn't irreplaceable. Neither was Stemkowski. Put on Dan and Jamie, they call a fantastic game.

No, not melodramatic. Saying what I genuinely feel. As someone far out of any US hockey market (yet still in the US) I am well aware of the other broadcast options and have used them since Stemmer was on the radio. None of the crews even came close to the Randy-Drew duo as far as synergy; they truly were broadcast magic. I know not everyone has the tools to realize that, especially if they have a problem with either of the men involved.

No discernible reason? Well it's a business, they don't need to give one publicly, nor do I think the public deserves one.

In this case I think they do because Drew (and all the broadcasters) are the interface with the public. The lack of one doesn't inspire confidence in the management team; they should know they better be ready to do some 'splainin with a move like that.

Drew was a fixture, but a replaceable one and I get that Drew was your sacred cow, but there are other cows in the pasture. Surely that Baker variety would catch your eye. Perhaps a nice Hedican? The world won't end because Drew won't be calling games. Whatever happened to the logo on the front not the name on the back? Does that not apply to you? It seems like you've already made up your mind that no return would satisfy the movement of Thornton and/or Marleau and while I want Marleau to retire in teal, I can accept if that does not come to fruition. Modano didn't, Alfie didn't. They can't all be Steve Yzerman.

The logo on the front represents the organization, and if the organization goes to hell in a handbasket, I have no problem kicking it to the curb. I do not have a geographic tie to the Sharks, so I am a fan by choice. It costs me a lot of money to fly in for a game or two every so many years.

No return can satisfy the movement of either of those guys, in case you didn't notice they are some of the best players in the league. We will be giving up the best player in any deal, and that is not the right move for the team in my opinion. That is a squandering of all they have worked for to this point, just before it seems likely to bear fruit.

 

[Irbes Mask]

No, not melodramatic. Saying what I genuinely feel. As someone far out of any US hockey market (yet still in the US) I am well aware of the other broadcast options and have used them since Stemmer was on the radio. None of the crews even came close to the Randy-Drew duo as far as synergy; they truly were broadcast magic. I know not everyone has the tools to realize that, especially if they have a problem with either of the men involved.



In this case I think they do because Drew (and all the broadcasters) are the interface with the public. The lack of one doesn't inspire confidence in the management team; they should know they better be ready to do some 'splainin with a move like that.



The logo on the front represents the organization, and if the organization goes to hell in a handbasket, I have no problem kicking it to the curb. I do not have a geographic tie to the Sharks, so I am a fan by choice. It costs me a lot of money to fly in for a game or two every so many years.

No return can satisfy the movement of either of those guys, in case you didn't notice they are some of the best players in the league. We will be giving up the best player in any deal, and that is not the right move for the team in my opinion. That is a squandering of all they have worked for to this point, just before it seems likely to bear fruit.

You deal in absolutes, irrationally so. We'll find no common ground here. Sorry for your loss.


Drew is definitely more magnanimous over the whole thing than you are. Perhaps you can take some solace in his solace.

 

[Empty Net Goal]

I'm hoping that as history has represented, DW is just talking a bunch of talk to try to appease people. In reality we'll see much of the same team that we iced last season with maybe 1 big move.

 

[Alwalys]

You deal in absolutes, irrationally so. We'll find no common ground here. Sorry for your loss.

Not really. I've been loyal to the Sharks for a long time, some might say that's irrational. There's not that much rational about hockey outcomes, so while I can deal with a 7 game loss to the Kings, I can't accept willfully screwing a good organization up.

Again, this isn't just some random whim. The feel of what the team is doing right now is all wrong. Everyone acknowledges the team is at a dangerous juncture; some of the more keen among us see that the team is heading in a bad direction at that juncture. And they are not being forced to do it.

In many ways this is yet again taking the easy way out. It will be a hard thing for DW to make the -- 100% true -- case that the loss to the Kings does not change the fact that this team is a contender and needs to be built up, not torn down.

 

[AgentCooper]

I never liked Drew. I don't care about the Mike Brown signing. I'm looking forward to the rebuild. And I think it's far too early to entertain the possibility of moving the team. So…………..no?

 

[Gilligans Island]

Not really. I've been loyal to the Sharks for a long time, some might say that's irrational. There's not that much rational about hockey outcomes, so while I can deal with a 7 game loss to the Kings, I can't accept willfully screwing a good organization up.

Again, this isn't just some random whim. The feel of what the team is doing right now is all wrong. Everyone acknowledges the team is at a dangerous juncture; some of the more keen among us see that the team is heading in a bad direction at that juncture. And they are not being forced to do it.

In many ways this is yet again taking the easy way out. It will be a hard thing for DW to make the -- 100% true -- case that the loss to the Kings does not change the fact that this team is a contender and needs to be built up, not torn down.

Phu, if the Sharks do keep both players for 3 years yet don't come any closer to winning the cup (assume the do the requisite tweaks and bandaids) - 1st or 2nd round exits, and then Joe and Patty walk off in the sunset, do you think that is the right course to choose? Do you think you might look back with regret and say 'Sharks should have gotten something way in 2014 offseason?"

If the answer is no, I get your view. I disagree but get it.

 

[Alwalys]

Man listening to that Drew interview didn't soothe me one bit, it pissed me off that we are losing such a world class guy.

Phu, if the Sharks do keep both players for 3 years yet don't come any closer to winning the cup (assume the do the requisite tweaks and bandaids) - 1st or 2nd round exits, and then Joe and Patty walk off in the sunset, do you think that is the right course to choose? Do you think you might look back with regret and say 'Sharks should have gotten something way in 2014 offseason?"

If the answer is no, I get your view. I disagree but get it.

Not in the least, because those three years are three shots at the Cup. This team is as great as it's ever been, in fact I think it's near the greatest it's ever been. And it's BECAUSE those two guys are still on it.

I'm the kind of guy who thinks we came closer to the Cup this year than in our two latest WCF years. We had the team this year to compete for the finals. Those two years we didn't stand a chance against Chicago and Vancouver.

 

[Irbes Mask]

Man listening to that Drew interview didn't soothe me one bit, it pissed me off that we are losing such a world class guy.



Not in the least, because those three years are three shots at the Cup. This team is as great as it's ever been, in fact I think it's near the greatest it's ever been. And it's BECAUSE those two guys are still on it.

I'm the kind of guy who thinks we came closer to the Cup this year than in our two latest WCF years. We had the team this year to compete for the finals. Those two years we didn't stand a chance against Chicago and Vancouver.

You just seem like you've got your head buried in the sand. It's cool, by all means, it's your head, I just can't ignore the bigger picture for the sake of Drew and the future of the franchise and I like Drew even as he devolved into Grapes territory over the last couple years.

 

[Gilligans Island]

Man listening to that Drew interview didn't soothe me one bit, it pissed me off that we are losing such a world class guy.

Not in the least, because those three years are three shots at the Cup. This team is as great as it's ever been, in fact I think it's near the greatest it's ever been. And it's BECAUSE those two guys are still on it.

I'm the kind of guy who thinks we came closer to the Cup this year than in our two latest WCF years. We had the team this year to compete for the finals. Those two years we didn't stand a chance against Chicago and Vancouver.

But then after 3 more years of misses, we're left with the same team for the most part but without any of the young assets we could have had had we traded Joe and Patty 3 years before. So now we're really in Siberia for awhile...

That seems worse to me.

 

[Alwalys]

But then after 3 more years of misses, we're left with the same team for the most part but without any of the young assets we could have had had we traded Joe and Patty 3 years before. So now we're really in Siberia for awhile...

That seems worse to me.

What, we're not going to draft during those 3 years? We're not going to gain $14m in cap space once those two leave? Trading studs for prospects could well put us in worse shape in 3 years. There are no guarantees with prospects, you have to take your shots when you have a known elite team.

 

[Gilligans Island]

What, we're not going to draft during those 3 years? We're not going to gain $14m in cap space once those two leave? Trading studs for prospects could well put us in worse shape in 3 years. There are no guarantees with prospects, you have to take your shots when you have a known elite team.

The picks we have on our own will likely be better picks (if we trade them) than if we keep them.

Trading both Joe and Patty would yield some add'l picks and prospects, keeping them for the 3 years yields no add'l picks.

The $14M in cap space is moot - we get it whether we trade them now or let their contracts play out.

You and I just disagree - we aren't elite and we're on the downslope.

 

[Alwalys]

You and I just disagree - we aren't elite and we're on the downslope.

There is no objective proof of this. Everything objective proves the team is among the elite teams in the league and near the best incarnation of the team ever to exist.

You don't outpossess the best possession team in the league and Cup champs in the playoffs while losing your #1D and best PMD, without being elite.

You and many others don't seem to attach enough significance to the worst playoff injury loss in the history of the franchise. Losing Vlasic was the most important player we have ever lost. There is no way any team can prepare for losing a key player like that, anything that happens after is heavily influenced by the loss, and unless one wants to completely blow it, one needs to analyze everything thereafter in light of that.

The team's management seems to be failing to do that, to the team's detriment.

 

[Gilligans Island]

There is no objective proof of this. Everything objective proves the team is among the elite teams in the league and near the best incarnation of the team ever to exist.

You don't outpossess the best possession team in the league and Cup champs in the playoffs while losing your #1D and best PMD, without being elite.

You and many others don't seem to attach enough significance to the worst playoff injury loss in the history of the franchise. Losing Vlasic was the most important player we have ever lost. There is no way any team can prepare for losing a key player like that, anything that happens after is heavily influenced by the loss, and unless one wants to completely blow it, one needs to analyze everything thereafter in light of that.

The team's management seems to be failing to do that, to the team's detriment.

- Vlasic would have had no impact on the 0-fer PP in the last 4 games
- so Vlasic was the biggest factor they scored 2 goals in the last 3 games, if you're claiming his PMD skills are that large of a factor in the offense, that is a stretch.

In any case, what's your plan to shore up that 2nd and 3rd LD spots without trading any of joe/patty/pavs/couture/nieto/hertl/vlasic/braun/burns/our 1sts/mueller to ensure we "remain elite"?

My biggest pet peeve with your view and others who are in the "keep the band together for one last hurrah" is there is no feasible plan to bolster our D. Just a lot of hand waiving or pie-in-the-sky ideas.

 

[Alwalys]

- Vlasic would have had no impact on the 0-fer PP in the last 4 games
- so Vlasic was the biggest factor they scored 2 goals in the last 3 games, if you're claiming his PMD skills are that large of a factor in the offense, that is a stretch.

See, this calls into question your analyses. Puck movement is key to any offense and the modern offense that attacks fast through the neutral zone lives and dies on puckmoving from the d-zone. Not just stretch passing, but simply efficiently getting the puck to a moving player with time and space makes all the difference. Then take a look at the Sharks' relative zonestarts compared to other elite teams.

In any case, what's your plan to shore up that 2nd and 3rd LD spots without trading any of joe/patty/pavs/couture/nieto/hertl/vlasic/braun/burns/our 1sts/mueller to ensure we "remain elite"?

My biggest pet peeve with your view and others who are in the "keep the band together for one last hurrah" is there is no feasible plan to bolster our D. Just a lot of hand waiving or pie-in-the-sky ideas.

If only there was a way we could acquire players other than by asset trades.

 

[ArcataShark]

Still the four OT loss to Dallas in the playoffs (thank you for correcting me, guess I blocked out a lot of that night). Man I lost it. Also losing nabby really bummed me outl

 

[Arkansas Shark]

Still the double OT loss to Dallas. Man I lost it. Also losing nabby really bummed me outl

Pretty sure it was four overtimes. The day after was worse IMO than the Kings collapse this year. After Game 5 I already knew the Sharks would lose the series. They completely checked out mentally and physically. I could see the end result coming.

That 4 OT loss was far more painful and gut wrenching.

 

[Gilligans Island]

See, this calls into question your analyses. Puck movement is key to any offense and the modern offense that attacks fast through the neutral zone lives and dies on puckmoving from the d-zone. Not just stretch passing, but simply efficiently getting the puck to a moving player with time and space makes all the difference. Then take a look at the Sharks' relative zonestarts compared to other elite teams.

Frankly, I think you're giving the forwards an excuse for not fully doing their jobs. They even admitted they strayed from the game plan... But if you want to continue to give them an excuse, that;s your call.

Even with Vlasic out, it's not like he plays 100% of the ES time such that his absence alone explains their complete offensive meltdown (ES and PP).

If only there was a way we could acquire players other than by asset trades.

I'll help you out since you can't seem to answer the question...

Free agency there are only 2 left handed UFA dmen of note - Markov and Nitikin. They'd be upgrades over Stuart, for sure. But given DW's comments, it doesn't seem like he'll go after either. We'll see on July 1st.

 

[Hold the Pickles]

Watching Brad Stuart play next season will be Darker.

You Sir, are pure evil.

 

[Alwalys]

Frankly, I think you're giving the forwards an excuse for not fully doing their jobs. They even admitted they strayed from the game plan... But if you want to continue to give them an excuse, that;s your call.

Even with Vlasic out, it's not like he plays 100% of the ES time such that his absence alone explains their complete offensive meltdown (ES and PP).

What do you think their "full jobs" are? Check out deployment in the series ... we ask more of our forwards than any other elite team, and our forwards by and large get it done to an amazing degree. Our system requires the team to execute through the neutral zone to generate offense; losing your best back-end puckmover has a major effect on that.

Again, the loss of Vlasic was the worst playoff injury loss in the history of the franchise. The impact of that cannot be overstated and it is routinely understated.

Frankly the "strayed from the gameplan" talking point smacks of CYA by management and coaching staff. The only person who I can think that might apply to is Boyle, but this has been Boyle's MO pretty much his entire time here, and he's gone now.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

What do you think their "full jobs" are? Check out deployment in the series ... we ask more of our forwards than any other elite team, and our forwards by and large get it done to an amazing degree. Our system requires the team to execute through the neutral zone to generate offense; losing your best back-end puckmover has a major effect on that.

Again, the loss of Vlasic was the worst playoff injury loss in the history of the franchise. The impact of that cannot be overstated and it is routinely understated.

Frankly the "strayed from the gameplan" talking point smacks of CYA by management and coaching staff. The only person who I can think that might apply to is Boyle, but this has been Boyle's MO pretty much his entire time here, and he's gone now.

The players themselves admitted to straying from the gameplan. And yes, you can overstate the impact of Vlasic's injury. You're doing it right now saying it was the worst playoff injury loss in the history of the franchise. He is certainly important but in the context of the games themselves, he wasn't the difference between winning and losing. He was but a contributing factor. There was no one single difference between winning and losing.

Vlasic is not the team's best puck-moving defenseman. If he was, he'd be on the power play a lot more than he is. He has his strengths with puck movement and his weaknesses like everyone else and some are just better like Demers, Boyle, and arguably Braun.

 

[Alwalys]

And yes, you can overstate the impact of Vlasic's injury. You're doing it right now saying it was the worst playoff injury loss in the history of the franchise.

Name a worse one.

He is certainly important but in the context of the games themselves, he wasn't the difference between winning and losing. He was but a contributing factor. There was no one single difference between winning and losing.

Vlasic is the closest thing to a singular difference between winning and losing on our team and in fact in this series, he likely was the single difference between winning and losing. The key to beating the Kings is to not let them put you behind the 8-ball and to attack quickly through the neutral zone. Losing Vlasic destroyed our ability to check the Kings' top line and dragged down our neutral zone attack.

Vlasic is not the team's best puck-moving defenseman. If he was, he'd be on the power play a lot more than he is. He has his strengths with puck movement and his weaknesses like everyone else and some are just better like Demers, Boyle, and arguably Braun.

Powerplay QBing =/= puck moving. Puck moving means moving the puck up ice, especially out of the defensive zone and through the neutral zone. Vlasic took the toughest assignments with hard defensive deployments, and was able to move the puck to an astounding degree, second on the team only to Joe Thornton and the best D-man.

http://www.inlouwetrust.com/2011/7/3/2257653/what-exactly-is-a-puck-moving-defenseman-anyway
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1590133

Dan Boyle at the end is actually a perfect example of a PPQB that was not one of the better PMDs on the team (and his decline is a big part of the reason we had trouble generating offense from the defense). He was actually the most sheltered D-man this year.

 

[hohosaregood]

Name a worse one.

Joe's separated shoulder.