was hockey talent better in the 1970s-1990s or 2000-2020?

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,583
10,364
Read the lineups that I provided and repeat your words with a straight face.

Team Millennials would never have the puck, mostly because it would either be on Lemieux's or Orr's stick or in their net. And when Team Millennials would get the puck, they would not cross the red line; Potvin, Clarke and Messier would see to that.


You are really drinking the kool-aid here aren't you?

The name you put forward for the current team have some amazing skills and excelled against much better competition.

I don't think it's even a fair way to gauge anything as it's so hypothetical to begin with.

Just for comparison sake take a closer look at a guy like Pavel Datsyuk and look how effective he was at age 36 compared to legends like Gretzky and Messier at the same age.

And if you are only looking at 70's and 80's Moose didn't have his Hart season until 90.

As for Moose being a 3rd line center, I''l take McDavid as the 3rd line center matchup 8 days a week.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,583
10,364
Oh, I get it: you don't know the names of the people I provided. You literally have no idea who Hull, Esposito, Trottier, and Bourque were, do you? :help::help:

I wouldn't use Esposito at all it's really not helping your case here.

Even Trottier as your 2nd line center, Malkin stacks up pretty well against him.

Putting Panarin and Kucherov on his Wings makes for a pretty good 2nd line, although I like the 3rd line of McDavid, Drai and Toews even more.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,583
10,364
Honestly with the way scoring is up I think those numbers are a bit low, granted it would kinda depend on pp opportunities+ice time but if he got to play "McDavid minutes" I could easily see 170+ during this season. Adding to that I would say Jagr was more offensively gifted than any player currently in the league.

OT: 1970:s-1990s not close. That said it's probably the strongest era of all time with the two best offensive forwards of all time(AINEC) and todays stars would stack up decent enough vs teams of most other eras. 1970-1990s is the anomaly not the norm.


Your example doesn't really hold up very well as Jagr played about 3 minutes per game more than McDavid in his best season and that year Pittsburg had more PP opportunities as well

Jagr 98-99

25:51 TOI, 363 PP opportunities Pens scored 65 PP goals, Jagr was on the ice for 55 of them


McDavid 18-19

22:50 TOI. 222 PP opportunities Oilers scored 47 PP goals, Connor was on the ice for 42 of them.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,583
10,364
I feel like it depends on what rules are being used.

The physical play of the old days would be too much to handle for this current generation.

The speed of today may cause some problems for the old generation if they can't throw them around without getting a penalty.


Are you kidding?

If Chara could chop down opponents like Moose Dupont did for the Flyers in Bobby Clarke's days Gretzky would be in big trouble.

I think the hypothetical the original guys used wants us to simply look at counting stats and forget reality.

Sure Gretzky and Mario would be a problem but the 2000's team could handle most of the lineup quite easily as well.

It's such a "what's if" that it almost has zero meaning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JasonRoseEh

Beukeboom

Registered User
Apr 1, 2007
1,938
1,384
You are really drinking the kool-aid here aren't you?

The name you put forward for the current team have some amazing skills and excelled against much better competition.

I don't think it's even a fair way to gauge anything as it's so hypothetical to begin with.

Just for comparison sake take a closer look at a guy like Pavel Datsyuk and look how effective he was at age 36 compared to legends like Gretzky and Messier at the same age.

And if you are only looking at 70's and 80's Moose didn't have his Hart season until 90.

As for Moose being a 3rd line center, I''l take McDavid as the 3rd line center matchup 8 days a week.
Gretzky was tied at third place in the scoring race when he was 36-37. One point away from #2. How exactly did Datsyuk beat that? Gretzky had Niklas Sundstrom as a linemate and his team missed the playoffs.
 
Last edited:

Minar

Registered User
Aug 27, 2018
328
288
Are you kidding?

If Chara could chop down opponents like Moose Dupont did for the Flyers in Bobby Clarke's days Gretzky would be in big trouble.

I think the hypothetical the original guys used wants us to simply look at counting stats and forget reality.

Sure Gretzky and Mario would be a problem but the 2000's team could handle most of the lineup quite easily as well.

It's such a "what's if" that it almost has zero meaning.
Chara actually played against Gretzky for real.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,583
10,364
Gretzky was tied at third place in the scoring race when he was 36-37. One point away from #2. How exactly did Datsyuk beat that? Gretzky had Niklas Sundstrom as a linemate and his team missed the play offs.


One of the main reasons the NYR missed the playoffs is that Gretzky was scoring empty points at that stage.

In other words he wasn't tipping the ice any more, which is fine he was freaking 36-37 but Datsyuk at the same age was a near PPG player and a possession driving monster who had more impact than purely his points at that age.

I'm not arguing in any sense that Gretzky wasn't the better player by far it's just that the makeup of the 2000 team was extremely balanced in their 2 way game , much more so than the 70's/80's version presented.
 

Beukeboom

Registered User
Apr 1, 2007
1,938
1,384


EVERYONE WATCH. This game is from 1994 rangers and devils game 7. This is an extremely fast paced, very physical game. Much more physical than today. It has great goaltending, great defense and there is absolutely no room out there to do much. Watch this game. If you think Crosby, Ovi or McDavid or anybody from today's nhl is going to have an easy time if they went back to this game you didnt watch. This is the nhl that 80s stars such Messier (very impressive playoffs) and Gretzky (art Ross) did very well even as older players. I'm sure those players and other stars from that time would have no trouble at all in today's league, in fact the less obstruction and no 2 line pass would benefit them.

Now THAT's hockey! I miss the mid 90's so much. It's just an excitement and intensity in the air around the games I don't see today. And all that hitting! A playoff game nowadays has one hit every five minutes and the modern fans become jubilant at how physical they perceive the game to be..."did you see? There were three hits in the first period..amazing.."

On a sidenote: It's absolutely crazy that MacTavish was playing without a helmet.
 

RandV

It's a wolf v2.0
Jul 29, 2003
26,860
4,953
Vancouver
Visit site
I would say that the top talent from 1970's to 1990 were higher when you factor in smaller number of teams, more talent to go around than the 2000 to 2020 due to spread around amongst 32 teams. If you consider the clutch and grabbing that was prevalent and they were able to score goals. If you consider the bottom 6 D that is playing for a basement dweller teams will not even make it to the NHL with 21 teams league and 4th liner on a bottom dweller team will not even make it so therefore the top tier talented players will exploit that in a match-up game. Remember the original 6 and the first expansion team from 1967 to 1970, the Original Six teams that keeps their roster were able to dominate expansion teams which tells me a lot, they were the top-tier players playing for their respective teams and new players who is playing for expansion teams were not able to beat them. If the NHL were to cut back teams to 6 teams, who will make the teams? All of 6 teams will showcase a full of superstars in every line, every D pairing and top tier goaltender. By then, we will be able to compare the original six era. Comparing era is like comparing the apples to oranges. If goaltender is forced to play without a mask, do you think that they will keep their butterfly style today? I doubt it. You will be receiving many stitches in your career if you try to play butterfly style without a mask.

No this depends on the size of the player base. A city population of 1,000,000 putting together it's best 6 bantam league teams is not the same as a city of 100,000 doing the same. It's hard to get an accurate measure of this at any given time, but in the original 6 days there was lower population and the NHL was basically all Canadian talent.

You could probably guesstimate that through population growth and international intake there are about 6x the players for the NHL to draw from in 2010 or 2020 than there was in 1950. So the more accurate way to look at it is not to pool all the best players onto 6 teams, but rather take a single NHL division as is it and pretend the rest of the league/players don't exist. Then you get a situation where a 'dynasty' can easily come back and the best players look that much better without so much competition crowding the field.
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
12,854
4,706
New Jersey
www.vvinenglish.com
I wouldn't use Esposito at all it's really not helping your case here.

Even Trottier as your 2nd line center, Malkin stacks up pretty well against him.

Putting Panarin and Kucherov on his Wings makes for a pretty good 2nd line, although I like the 3rd line of McDavid, Drai and Toews even more.
Esposite should be ranked higher than ANY modern player. He has FIVE (get it -- FIVE!) Art Rosses. That's two more than Ovechkin and Crosby COMBINED. He is a better goalscorer than ANY modern player except Ovechkin and also lead the league THREE TIMES IN ASSISTS to boot. That's three times more than Crosby. He beat Bobby Orr, his teammate, for Hart... TWICE.

So f*** yeah, it's helping my case!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mbraunm

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
12,854
4,706
New Jersey
www.vvinenglish.com
You are really drinking the kool-aid here aren't you?

The name you put forward for the current team have some amazing skills and excelled against much better competition.

I don't think it's even a fair way to gauge anything as it's so hypothetical to begin with.

Just for comparison sake take a closer look at a guy like Pavel Datsyuk and look how effective he was at age 36 compared to legends like Gretzky and Messier at the same age.

And if you are only looking at 70's and 80's Moose didn't have his Hart season until 90.

As for Moose being a 3rd line center, I''l take McDavid as the 3rd line center matchup 8 days a week.
WTF are you talking about? At 36 Datsyuk was already out of NHL, while Gretzky lead his team in points and was #3 in the League against far greater talent. You can play puny McDavid against the Moose (and Messier did not miraculously become better in 1990... he was simply in the shadow of two demigods). Messier would knock him into that 8th day of the week you're talking about.

I'm not gonna waste my time on you any more. But if you think for a second the Millennials team would win more than one game (because anything can happen once) against Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Esposito, and three of the best two-way forwards the game has ever known, you're nuts.
 

TheDawnOfANewTage

Dahlin, it’ll all be fine
Dec 17, 2018
12,291
17,929
I don’t think it’s really logical to say there was more skill in the past- the game evolves by its very nature. Training is better, strategy is better, more people are playing. Gretzky and co. can’t help the era they played in, maybe they’d still dominate today, but overall- to me it’s just fundamentally logical to think there’s more overall “skill” today. I love classic cars, but if we’re talking performance obviously today’s machines are a bit better.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,583
10,364
Esposite should be ranked higher than ANY modern player. He has FIVE (get it -- FIVE!) Art Rosses. That's two more than Ovechkin and Crosby COMBINED. He is a better goalscorer than ANY modern player except Ovechkin and also lead the league THREE TIMES IN ASSISTS to boot. That's three times more than Crosby. He beat Bobby Orr, his teammate, for Hart... TWICE.

So f*** yeah, it's helping my case!

Phil was a lousy 2 way player and Bobby Orr stirred the drink that was the Boston Bruins.

Orr tilted the ice so Phil could score....literally.

I can see why voters gave Esposito his first hart but the second one, no one seriously thought that he was a better NHLer than Orr in 73-74 even if he won the Hart sorry.

Had HF boards been around back then the site would have crashed with the insanity of Phil beating Orr for the Hart...and rightly so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaveG

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,583
10,364
WTF are you talking about? At 36 Datsyuk was already out of NHL, while Gretzky lead his team in points and was #3 in the League against far greater talent.

Dats played with detroit until age 37 so maybe get your facts right first and if you had bothered to look them up you would have noticed that he was still a possession monster then.

You can play puny McDavid against the Moose (and Messier did not miraculously become better in 1990... he was simply in the shadow of two demigods). Messier would knock him into that 8th day of the week you're talking about.

Connor is 6'1" 193 lbs but sure call him puny.

He also has chemistry with Draisaitl so having him on that line with Toews who has a pretty decent resume in best on best tournaments would easily handle the Moose 3rd line with the 2 70's russian greats, if they could actually drag Phil's ass out of the sauna at this hypothetical training camp with his case of beer.

I'm not gonna waste my time on you any more. But if you think for a second the Millennials team would win more than one game (because anything can happen once) against Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Esposito, and three of the best two-way forwards the game has ever known, you're nuts.

Well just call me

MV5BY2I1NGI4MTYtYzYzNy00ZDQ1LWI4ZTQtZWYzMjJkZWQxYjhlXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMjE5MzM3MjA@._V1_SX1777_CR0,0,1777,998_AL_.jpg
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
12,854
4,706
New Jersey
www.vvinenglish.com
Dats played with detroit until age 37 so maybe get your facts right first and if you had bothered to look them up you would have noticed that he was still a possession monster then.
A "possession monster Datsyuk" was nowhere near #3 in the League in points. And I love Datsyuk. Saw his entire career. Putting him on the same plane as The Great One is asinine.

Connor is 6'1" 193 lbs but sure call him puny.

He also has chemistry with Draisaitl so having him on that line with Toews who has a pretty decent resume in best on best tournaments would easily handle the Moose 3rd line with the 2 70's russian greats, if they could actually drag Phil's ass out of the sauna at this hypothetical training camp with his case of beer.
How many times they their league in points? How much hardware do they have? How many Cups did they win? "Easily handle the Moose"... given that he alone has more Harts than your entire 3rd line. Add to that 3 Soviet MVPs for Mikhailov and 2 for Kharlamov... and two for Esposito.

Well just call me
shutterstock_editorial_5881911a_huge.jpg

is more like it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mbraunm

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
12,854
4,706
New Jersey
www.vvinenglish.com
Phil was a lousy 2 way player and Bobby Orr stirred the drink that was the Boston Bruins.

Orr tilted the ice so Phil could score....literally.

I can see why voters gave Esposito his first hart but the second one, no one seriously thought that he was a better NHLer than Orr in 73-74 even if he won the Hart sorry.

Had HF boards been around back then the site would have crashed with the insanity of Phil beating Orr for the Hart...and rightly so.
I'm glad you weren't around. Your revisionism is funny. Facts are facts. He won the Hart over Orr twice even if you crap your pants. He also lead the league in points 5 times, in assists 3 times, and in goals 5 times. That's better than anybody who took the ice in the NHL after the lockout. He still holds the record for the number of GWG. With Trottier and Bossy they would be unstoppable, and Malkin and Co. don't have a prayer (and if you want to get anal: Bobby Orr is STILL playing behind Espo on this squad). And neither does the entire Team Millennials.

There is not one metric, not ONE, in which Team Millennials beats Team 70-80. It's delusion to think otherwise.
 
Last edited:

Hasa92

Registered User
Aug 4, 2012
1,008
533
Finland
Don't know about talent but players these days definitely are better because of modern training and nutrition.

Something as vague as talent is nearly impossible to evaluate, you basically can only do it with people who have had identical training, nutrition, coaching and equipment and then see if one of them is better.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mbraunm

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,239
15,835
Tokyo, Japan
I just watched the 1980 All star game on sportsnet. The skating was glaringly inferior to today. The goaltending looked minor league and the d-men coughed up the puck numerous times; something that in today's game would get them run out of town.
You might try, you know, watching an actual game and not the All Star game. Try 1989 game seven between Calgary and Vancouver, one of a number of classics from this period:


It's important to note that "the 70s/80s" are not one uniform era. In fact, "the 80s" are not one era either. Hockey from around 1980 looks, to me, totally unlike the game in 1989 (excepting some of the better clubs by the mid-80s).
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,239
15,835
Tokyo, Japan
A+ post and I agree with all of it, but I think one big factor that has not been addressed so far in the thread was the rapid expansion of the NHL and how it diluted the overall talent pool. Between 1967 and 1980, the NHL grew from 6 teams to 21 teams, a 350% increase, and it continued growing throughout the 80s and early 90s. This meant that many more players who would have never sniffed NHL ice in a 6 team league were now mainstays on many NHL teams which drastically increased the disparity in skill between the top end players like Gretzky and Lemieux and the rest of the league. They were so much better than most of their opposition that they were able to put up absolutely insane numbers. Imagine if Mcdavid played in a league in which 50% of its players were WHL, ECHL, or QMJHL caliber. That would be a similar environment to what Gretz and Mario encountered in the 80s. Not only were they generational talents to very definition of the word, but their generation also just happened to occur during this transitional period for the league in which they were able to exploit their talents to the maximum extent against vastly inferior opponents due to the ballooning size of the league.

In today's game, there is not nearly the amount of disparity between the very top players and the very bottom, which leaves the very top players a slimmer advantage to work with.
I agree with you about the disparity difference being smaller today between 'top' and 'bottom' players. I think pretty much everyone agrees on that.

But I strongly disagree that the NHL was weaker due to expansion from 1980. I think this is a popular misconception. In my opinion, by far the "weakest" era of NHL clubs was from around 1970 to 1977 or so. In 1967, the NHL grew by 100% from six teams to twelve overnight. However, although this created (obviously) some much weaker teams for the first few years, I think this expansion to 12 teams was about the "correct" number of teams for that era. In other words, expansion was way overdue by then, and having 12 teams just made things about right.

But the NHL kept growing from 1970 (Buffalo, Vancouver, etc.) and then in 1972 the WHA began. By 1975, there were -- count 'em -- 32 pro hockey teams in North America. That's more than today.

The worst team of all time in the NHL was probably the 1974-75 Capitals (franchise's first season). How bad were they? Somebody did an analysis on the History board and found that by 1979 (when the WHA ended and four clubs 'merged' into the NHL), EVERY SINGLE PLAYER ON THE 1975 CAPITALS WAS OUT OF PRO-HOCKEY. That's like if we took the 2017-18 Golden Knights, fast forwarded to 2021-22 (two years from today), and not a single guy was good enough to be in the NHL anymore. So, I ask you, if 20 guys were good enough in 1975 but all of them weren't good enough by 1980, how was the League getting weaker?

In fact, the number of pro teams dropped from 1975 (32) to 1980 (21), and then stayed steady until 1991-92. A lot of ex- and future-NHLers were in the WHA.

The 21 teams from 1979-80 was probably about right, or at least it was a few years later. As I said just up-thread, I do think the c.1979 to 1982 or 1983 period was weaker, but it wasn't because of expansion (actually, a retraction had occurred, as I've shown). It was probably because skaters were getting younger and younger (18-year-olds drafted from 1979), which generally means they're weaker defensively, and because offense in general (enhanced after exposure to the Soviets in '72 and after) was developing quickly (soon to be enhanced yet more by Gretzky), while defence and goaltending was still stuck in the 1950s' level, without any advancement from then. In fact, goaltending appears to have reached perhaps its weakest median-level around the turn of the 80s.

But I think all of these relative weaknesses were being ironed-out by 1983 or 1984. By then, more and more Americans were coming to the NHL (Langway, Barrasso, Housley, Carpenter, and Lawton as 1st overall draft in '83) along with a stable number of Europeans (started in the 70s, but getting substantial by early 80s, including stars like the Stastny's, Kurri, Lindbergh, etc.). The 21 teams from 1983-ish to 1991 was the perfect number for that time.

Appropriately, as ex-Soviets/Russians started coming to the NHL in 1989-90 and after, the League started expanding again from 1991. I think the 24 teams reached by 1994 (?) was about right for this time, also.

Has the NHL talent-pool expanded since the mid-1990s? I personally don't think the talent pool is any greater than then, but the motivation for young athletes to make the NHL got greater because salaries exploded from the early-90s onward.


As earlier pages in this thread show with numerous examples, we also have to be careful not to confuse 'performance' with potential. As the goldfish grows to suit the size of the aquarium, so athletes change and adapt to their competitive environment. Another good example is Al MacInnis. MacInnis was drafted before Gretzky had ever scored 200 points, wasn't good enough to be an NHL regular for another two-and-a-half years after that draft, and then was a 1st-team All Star in 2003 -- one year before Ovechkin was drafted. A bunch of guys still playing today (Spezza, Kovalchuk, Bouwmeester, Thornton) were playing then, MacInnis was considered better than all of them that season, yet he wasn't good enough to play in the NHL in 1981-82, 1982-83, or much of 1983-84. Now, obviously I'm not saying the NHL was better in the early-80s than in 2003, but I am saying that any elite athletes of any era will adapt to the new eras (provided conditioning is good).
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,257
138,787
Bojangles Parking Lot
You might try, you know, watching an actual game and not the All Star game. Try 1989 game seven between Calgary and Vancouver, one of a number of classics from this period:


It's important to note that "the 70s/80s" are not one uniform era. In fact, "the 80s" are not one era either. Hockey from around 1980 looks, to me, totally unlike the game in 1989 (excepting some of the better clubs by the mid-80s).


This stuff is all gonna come back to roost when 40-year-old Zennials are getting lectured by their kids about how the 2010s NHL was trash because they saw a replay of the ASG and nobody played defense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sentinel and DaveG

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,583
10,364
You might try, you know, watching an actual game and not the All Star game. Try 1989 game seven between Calgary and Vancouver, one of a number of classics from this period:


It's important to note that "the 70s/80s" are not one uniform era. In fact, "the 80s" are not one era either. Hockey from around 1980 looks, to me, totally unlike the game in 1989 (excepting some of the better clubs by the mid-80s).


As a lifelong Canuck fan I have to say that I respectfully hate you for reminding us of this.

Are you the former producer of CBC's HNIC that would constantly show Stan Smyl not scoring on Mike Vernon when he stacked his pads?
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad