WADA recommends a 4 year ban for Russian Athletes

[Zine]

Sooo giving cheaters a pass?

A free pass?

The IIHF controls and administers all drug tests in the KHL (in adherence with WADA standards). Furthermore they test NHLers at the World Championships.

The IIHF is well within it's right to tell WADA to f*** off as it pertains to hockey.


Olympic hockey?....that's for the IOC to decide.

 

[Jussi]

They'll circumvent again, and use a different name, but many of their athletes will be banned under even tiniest suspicion of impropriety.

There will also be appeals, which will have an effect going forward.

The head of Rusada doesn't expect the decision to be overturned. Some individual atheletes may be if their respective governing body doesn't handle the affair accordingly.

 

[Pasha71]

I expect virtually nothing to change in international hockey. Russia will compete as "Hockey Players From Russia" -- without anthem, flag and Kuznetsov. Just like in 2018 Olympics. And a good thing, too. International hockey without Russia is like international soccer without Brazil.

 

[Jussi]

I expect virtually nothing to change in international hockey. Russia will compete as "Hockey Players From Russia" -- without anthem, flag and Kuznetsov. Just like in 2018 Olympics. And a good thing, too. International hockey without Russia is like international soccer without Brazil.

You mean "meh"? I mean it's not like Brazil are in exceptionally great form these days and more people are gloryhunting Germany, Spain, France or Holland anyway.

 

[Pasha71]

You mean "meh"? I mean it's not like Brazil are in exceptionally great form these days and more people are gloryhunting Germany, Spain, France or Holland anyway.

Well, in soccer, superpowers aren't as set in stone as they are in hockey, but every soccer fan knows that historically, Brazil is the greatest. And I simply can't imagine a World Cup without Brazil. In fact, there has never been one.

And Holland is not a very good example, either. They failed to qualify for Euro 2016 and World Cup 2018.

 

[jj cale]

Well, in soccer, superpowers aren't as set in stone as they are in hockey, but every soccer fan knows that historically, Brazil is the greatest. And I simply can't imagine a World Cup without Brazil. In fact, there has never been one.

And Holland is not a very good example, either. They failed to qualify for Euro 2016 and World Cup 2018.

Bad comparison, that ain't Russia in hockey. Everyone and their dog knows who that really is.

 

[Pasha71]

Bad comparison, that ain't Russia in hockey. Everyone and their dog knows who that really is.

I suppose Canada = Brazil, USSR/Russia = Germany. Still, hard to imagine World Cup without Germany.

 

[jj cale]

I suppose Canada = Brazil, USSR/Russia = Germany. Still, hard to imagine World Cup without Germany.

Yes it would be indeed.

 

[Pasha71]

So my position is simple: punish the guilty ones (like Kuznetsov), but not the innocent ones. Basically, keep the 2018 Olympic model in place.

 

[jj cale]

So my position is simple: punish the guilty ones (like Kuznetsov), but not the innocent ones. Basically, keep the 2018 Olympic model in place.

I hate to see the innocent ones have to pay for others mistakes but it was state sanctioned cheating, I think you have to hit Russia really hard to make them think twice about trying to pull that again.

Can't let them get away with that, it's just so over the top what they did.

 

[Yabob]

Would be interesting to know how it would work in a sport like hockey where international competition is build around divisions with a promotion/relegation system (unlike most other team sports where everyone except the host and maybe the reigning champion has to play a qualification round every time). Would a neutral team have to play it's way up from the lowest division, or would they simply take Russia's spot? And if they did take Russia's spot could they get Russia relegated even though they aren't representing Russia?

 

[Pasha71]

I hate to see the innocent ones have to pay for others mistakes but it was state sanctioned cheating, I think you have to hit Russia really hard to make them think twice about trying to pull that again.

Can't let them get away with that, it's just so over the top what they did.

Basically, it's athletes paying for what politicians did. I hate mixing politics and sports, it already screwed up two Summer Olympiads (1980 and 1984). Keep it like in Winter Olympics 2018: athletes get to compete, yet with no flag or anthem. The state will get shamed, yet the athletes will still compete and the level of competition will not be compromised.

Personally, I have no sympathy towards Putin or Russian foreign policy (I am originally from Belarus, and I fully support Ukraine against Russia), but Russian hockey team is a very valuable participant in any international contest.

 

[jj cale]

Basically, it's athletes paying for what politicians did. I hate mixing politics and sports, it already screwed up two Summer Olympiads (1980 and 1984). Keep it like in Winter Olympics 2018: athletes get to compete, yet with no flag or anthem. The state will get shamed, yet the athletes will still compete and the level of competition will not be compromised.

Personally, I have no sympathy towards Putin or Russian foreign policy (I am originally from Belarus, and I fully support Ukraine against Russia), but Russian hockey team is a very valuable participant in any international contest.

They sure are but you cannot let Russia get away with this, they need to be sanctioned and sanctioned hard or the message will be that they can get away with it and it will continue for sure.

Sucks for the athletes that played by the rules but it has to be done.

 

[Pasha71]

They sure are but you cannot let Russia get away with this, they need to be sanctioned and sanctioned hard or the message will be that they can get away with it and it will continue for sure.

Sucks for the athletes that played by the rules but it has to be done.

I can't find precedents in sports history. Countries have been punished for political misdeeds (Yugoslavia in 1992), but not doping.

 

[Pasha71]

Now, another practical question: can an innocent athlete from a punished country change their "sports citizenship"? Say, all Russian hockey players become Belarusians. In hockey, it's not easy, but maybe an exception can be made if the original country is no longer allowed to participate -- that effectively makes the athletes stateless!

 

[sandysan]

FIFA and UEFA don't care about WADA. The same can be said about IIHF. All other sports I don't give a **** for...

isnt fifa a WADA signatory ?

 

[sandysan]

Now, another practical question: can an innocent athlete from a punished country change their "sports citizenship"? Say, all Russian hockey players become Belarusians. In hockey, it's not easy, but maybe an exception can be made if the original country is no longer allowed to participate -- that effectively makes the athletes stateless!

no the precedent has been set, people only BECOME russian citizens to compete ( like the speed skater previously known as south-korean Victor Ahn).

And once you have competed internationally for one country, it is very very difficult to compete for another. I think the waiting period is three or 4 years after having last competed for country A becfore you can compete for country B and you have to have citizenship for B.

 

[jj cale]

I can't find precedents in sports history. Countries have been punished for political misdeeds (Yugoslavia in 1992), but not doping.

This is sports misdeeds though, politically motivated however it may be.

 

[Kshahdoo]

isnt fifa a WADA signatory ?

I couldn't find any documents, that say, that FIFA is obligated to fulfil WADA orders.

 

[Pasha71]

And once you have competed internationally for one country, it is very very difficult to compete for another. I think the waiting period is three or 4 years after having last competed for country A becfore you can compete for country B and you have to have citizenship for B.

I know. But if the point is to punish country A but not innocent athletes, why not let them compete for country B? It's not their fault they used to compete for country A. How did they know that country would become a sports pariah?

 

[sandysan]

I couldn't find any documents, that say, that FIFA is obligated to fulfil WADA orders.

this might help

https://resources.fifa.com/image/up...-regulations.pdf?cloudid=ujtnvke2uqscz2pgs4ct

 

[sandysan]

I know. But if the point is to punish country A but not innocent athletes, why not let them compete for country B? It's not their fault they used to compete for country A. How did they know that country would become a sports pariah?

because we then have citizenships of convenience where country A affords citizenship to athlete X not based on history on ancestry but because they can run daster, jump higher or throw longer ? and then we get nonsense like american citizens representing small carribean countries in things like cross country skiing.

The IOC ( in the Ahn affair) has already said that they will NOT get into questions about HOW an athlete cam to acquire a second citizenship ( coinciedntally, ahn thought of coming to the US but the path to citizenship was much harder). If a country says " they are a citizen" if its been three years the IOC says okie dokie.

I think there are exceptions if a country is split into two.

As for a country becoming a pariah, every country has its ups and downs. you want all the athletes hopping from country A to B looking only for the ups ?

 

[Pasha71]

As for a country becoming a pariah, every country has its ups and downs. you want all the athletes hopping from country A to B looking only for the ups ?

That's not "ups and downs". It's a ban specifically for this country, designed to punish this country (but ostensibly not innocent athletes). Basically, it means that for all athletic intents and purposes, this country does not exist anymore. Which means the athletes are pretty much stateless.

Then again, it's all just theorizing. Looks like we'll stick to Winter Olympic 2018 model, and Russians will still play as "Athletes from Russia" without flag and anthem. Suits me fine.

 

[sandysan]

That's not "ups and downs". It's a ban specifically for this country, designed to punish this country (but ostensibly not innocent athletes). Basically, it means that for all athletic intents and purposes, this country does not exist anymore. Which means the athletes are pretty much stateless.

Then again, it's all just theorizing. Looks like we'll stick to Winter Olympic 2018 model, and Russians will still play as "Athletes from Russia" without flag and anthem. Suits me fine.

yeah, because they can't compete. Russia is going to admit that " for all athletic intents and purposes, it no longer exists" just the way that all of the olympic atletes from russia went back with their medals to bask under russian flags.

I guess we don't really know because there is no precendent for a country to persistently and systematically act as though they, and they alone, are immune to doping violations so deciding what the appropriate sanction for this level of state sponsored skullduggery is all virgin ground.

 

[Fantomas]

The head of Rusada doesn't expect the decision to be overturned. Some individual atheletes may be if their respective governing body doesn't handle the affair accordingly.

There will likely be some compromises, especially in terms of what the team will be ultimately called.

The only thing the Russian state can do now is compromise. They are still addicted to the global markets and therefore have no guts to boycott the Olympics.