Value of: (Voracek) & (OTT's 2019 1st, Owned by COL )

[mdm815]

We aren’t talking about value tho, we are talking about the vacuum of a good player. Many of those players won’t touch Jakes best seasons. And many of them have value now before a new contract kicks in, which isn’t fair to judge now or then.

Ie a 50 pt center on an elc could be argued to have more value than a 70 pt winger, but when you’re discussing who’s better contract value shouldn’t be considered.

 

[EdAVSfan]

We aren’t talking about value tho, we are talking about the vacuum of a good player. Many of those players won’t touch Jakes best seasons. And many of them have value now before a new contract kicks in, which isn’t fair to judge now or then.

Ie a 50 pt center on an elc could be argued to have more value than a 70 pt winger, but when you’re discussing who’s better contract value shouldn’t be considered.

Who’s not talking about value?

Isn’t this thread basically about comparing the value of Voracek vs an unknown pick?

 

[StoneHands]

So you're saying Voracek is a better player driving his own line than playing beside Giroux and Couturier? The post above the one you quoted I stated he'd still score 60-70 points and can drive his own line, but he isn't thriving. ES Production Voracek scored ~40% of his ES points with Giroux + Couts in just 30% of the games. With Patrick/Filpulla/Raffl/Lindbolm, he had 28% of his ES points in 35% of the games. That's a pretty substantial. If you look at Pittsburgh - Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel all drive their respective lines with some of them getting lesser linemates, they'll generate the same amount of points with or without elite talent around them.

Nope, never said Voracek is better without Giroux and Couturier. There are very few players, if any that would be better off without a 100 point player in Giroux and a 70+ point Selke finalist in Couturier. You even said, he played a lot of the season with Patrick/Filpulla/Raffl/Lindbolm. Is Voracek as good as Crosby? Of course not but there are very few players in the NHL that would have had huge seasons playing with those guys last year. Switch Giroux with Voracek and allow Jake to play with Couturier and Konecny and he would have had a huge year as the driver of that line. Not every player that drives a line plays with slob, in fact most don not.

You have a bit of reading comprehension issues, eh? They all have similar value (aka an argument can be made) compared to Voracek when comparing their age/cap/potential/etc along with some playing center. Go see how many of those respective teams would trade the player I listed for Voracek. I don't hate Voracek by any means, but he's had 2 PPG seasons while getting paid $8.25 mil. The rest of the seasons he's been a 60 point player.

No, it appears you have some reading comprehension issues because the word "value" never appeared in any of your posts when referring to how many players from each draft are better than Voracek. The words
age/cap/potential/position never appeared until this post.

Let's recap
The debate is about where this pick will be in the draft and whether or not it's worth taking a risk trading it.
-Someone responded saying "there will be 2,3 or 4 players better than him per draft."
-You said "Wait, you think there's only 3-4 Voraceks per draft?" and went on to say "it's pretty easy to point to any draft and find 3-4 players at the same level/better than Voracek".

You then went on to list everyone since 2010 that you think is better than Voracek including HMs who I assume you think are close (hint: they aren't) and included guys like Reinhart, Horvat, Drouin, Zibanejad, and RNH who all have trouble hitting 50 points on a consistent basis.

Voracek has had 3 seasons within 2 points of being PPG out of the last 6. How many of the guys you mentioned can say the same?

 

[StoneHands]

Who’s not talking about value?

Isn’t this thread basically about comparing the value of Voracek vs an unknown pick?

The guy that went back to 2010 and listed 5-6 guys from each draft that are as good or better than Voracek (in his warped opinion) did not mention a thing about value, age, position, salary, etc. He literally just started naming 50 point players and said they are comparable players.

 

[FlyTimmo]

I can't speak for Colorado, but I can't see Hextall doing this. Trading one of your best players for an unknown is probably not a smart move. That pick being top-5 isn't a guarantee. Too much risk.

 

[PAZ]

Nope, never said Voracek is better without Giroux and Couturier. There are very few players, if any that would be better off without a 100 point player in Giroux and a 70+ point Selke finalist in Couturier. You even said, he played a lot of the season with Patrick/Filpulla/Raffl/Lindbolm. Is Voracek as good as Crosby? Of course not but there are very few players in the NHL that would have had huge seasons playing with those guys last year. Switch Giroux with Voracek and allow Jake to play with Couturier and Konecny and he would have had a huge year as the driver of that line. Not every player that drives a line plays with slob, in fact most don not.


No, it appears you have some reading comprehension issues because the word "value" never appeared in any of your posts when referring to how many players from each draft are better than Voracek. The words
age/cap/potential/position never appeared until this post.

Let's recap
The debate is about where this pick will be in the draft and whether or not it's worth taking a risk trading it.
-Someone responded saying "there will be 2,3 or 4 players better than him per draft."
-You said "Wait, you think there's only 3-4 Voraceks per draft?" and went on to say "it's pretty easy to point to any draft and find 3-4 players at the same level/better than Voracek".

You then went on to list everyone since 2010 that you think is better than Voracek including HMs who I assume you think are close (hint: they aren't) and included guys like Reinhart, Horvat, Drouin, Zibanejad, and RNH who all have trouble hitting 50 points on a consistent basis.

Voracek has had 3 seasons within 2 points of being PPG out of the last 6. How many of the guys you mentioned can say the same?

So basically you believe guys like Reinhart, Horvat, Drouin won't get any better, they already hit their peak, gotcha. Even if you take out forwards that you don't believe are debatable giving their age, there's still ~5 forwards clearly better than Voracek in each draft I listed. This isn't even counting goalies or defensemen. And no, I don't believe all the HM are close, but some are and all fill the role of a top 6 forward.

Voracek isn't a top 50 player in the league. I can see an argument for forwards, but not a top 50 player. Also, Voracek is in his prime right now, he'll probably have another 4-5 productive years. Here's a list since 2010:

2010: Hall, Seguin, Johansen, Schwartz, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Stone
HM: Skinner, Coyle, Zucker, Toffoli, Gallagher

2011: RNH, Landeskog, Huberdeau, Zibanejad, Scheifele, Couterier, Kucherov, Gaudreau
HM: Miller, Rakell, Saad, W. Karlsson, Trocheck, Palat

2012 (defense heavy draft): Forsberg
HM: Galchenyuk, Teravainen, Hertl

2013: Mackinnon, Barkov, Drouin, Monahan, Horvat
HM: Lindholm, Domi, Mantha, Buchnevich, Zykov, Wennberg,

2014: Reinhart, Draisaitl, Nylander, Ehlers, Larkin, Pastrnak, Point, Arvidsson
HM: Fiala, Fabbri, Tuch, Vrana, Perlini

2015: McDavid, Eichel, Marner, Rantanen, Barzal, Connor, Boeser, Aho
HM: Strome,

2016/17/18 is too early to make a list, but that's at least 37 players from 5 drafts that have similar or better value to Voracek right now (this is excluding HM's). If I included defenseman, Voracek wouldn't even make the top 50 for 5 draft classes.

 

[StoneHands]

So basically you believe guys like Reinhart, Horvat, Drouin won't get any better, they already hit their peak, gotcha. Even if you take out forwards that you don't believe are debatable giving their age, there's still ~5 forwards clearly better than Voracek in each draft I listed. This isn't even counting goalies or defensemen. And no, I don't believe all the HM are close, but some are and all fill the role of a top 6 forward.

Never said they wouldn't get better. I responded to your post about those players being better than Voracek. I'm sorry I didn't read your mind that you were referring to their age, position, and cap hit. maybe next time mention that. I also am not going to just assume those guys will be 70+ point players on average over any 5-6 year stretch like Voracek is right now.

As far as 5 players that are "clearly better", I just don't see it. I see 4 from 2010, 3 from 2011, none from 2012, 2 from 2013 and the rest are too young to really judge. So 9 forwards in 4 drafts. Roughly 2-3 a year. Not sure where you're seeing 5 forwards from each draft but hey, keep beating that drum.

 

[Starat327]

Again, you missed the word value. You can't just look at production when comparing a 22 year old to a 28 year old, considering Voracek was only a 40-50 point player at the same age as well.

When someone says "isnt a top 50 player" i dont get "isnt a top 50 most valuable player" from that. If thats what you meant, thats perfectly ok, especially since value is completely subjective anyway. But im not a mind reader, so if you want to say someone is or isnt a top 50 player on value, you had better specify that.

And even on Value - a lot of those names are still laughable.

 

[24 others]

Indeed. The original discussion was about how many players on the level of Voracek one can expect from a draft. Then this guy came in with a list of Zibanejads and Arvidssons and started defending his picks by referring to "value".

 

[Flyerfan47]

28 is aging? Say what?

Don't you know 28 is the new 50 . People are priceless.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

That pick has a ~10% chance of being Jack Hughes, I would say

I just don’t think Colorado is going to trade that pick unless they’re getting a player that provides them with a >10% chance of winning the Cup this year.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Colorado is still rebuilding. They are going to ice one of the youngest teams in the league. The intention is to be a serious cup contender in a few years, obviously the OTT 1st is going to be play a very important part in that. It makes no sense for the Avs to be trading such a valuable long term piece for anyone who will be past their prime once the team is ready to compete.

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

28 is aging? Say what?

technically 1 day old is aging.

 

[PAZ]

Never said they wouldn't get better. I responded to your post about those players being better than Voracek. I'm sorry I didn't read your mind that you were referring to their age, position, and cap hit. maybe next time mention that. I also am not going to just assume those guys will be 70+ point players on average over any 5-6 year stretch like Voracek is right now.

As far as 5 players that are "clearly better", I just don't see it. I see 4 from 2010, 3 from 2011, none from 2012, 2 from 2013 and the rest are too young to really judge. So 9 forwards in 4 drafts. Roughly 2-3 a year. Not sure where you're seeing 5 forwards from each draft but hey, keep beating that drum.

Does the word value not include age, position, and cap hit - which by the way I bolded in my previous reply but you seemed to conveniently ignore that fact.

I'd take players like Schwartz, Stone, Couts, Forsberg over Voracek easily. Fair enough, I shouldn't have said clearly, but in my view theres more than enough that are in conversation with Voracek. We're also limiting the scope to only forwards as opposed to including defenseman and goalies too.

 

[Garbage Goal]

wouldnt touch voracek's contract with a ten foot pole, 8+ millions for him when our best player is making 6.3

Voracek is an outstanding player, but he isnt the right age for our core, and his contract would mess up our structure and our ability to re-sign our own young/up and comers like jost/rantanen/kerfoot/et al

specifically rantanen, who plays the same position and scored one less point than voracek this past season, he would have a legit argument to be paid close to what voracek makes

The cap keeps going up every year and Seattle is about to join the league. 8 mil is nothing compared to what it used to be. Back when Giroux and Voracek signed their contracts the best players in the league went for 8 to 9 mil, a player like them or Tavares makes 10 to 11 on the open market now. In as little as one or two seasons Voraceks contract is going to take up less than 10% of the cap.

Of all the silly things to say, bemoaning an 8 mil contract for a PPG player still in his 20’s is up there.

 

[Tripod]

Voracek isn't a top 50 player in the league. I can see an argument for forwards, but not a top 50 player. Also, Voracek is in his prime right now, he'll probably have another 4-5 productive years. Here's a list since 2010:

2010: Hall, Seguin, Johansen, Schwartz, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Stone
HM: Skinner, Coyle, Zucker, Toffoli, Gallagher

2011: RNH, Landeskog, Huberdeau, Zibanejad, Scheifele, Couterier, Kucherov, Gaudreau
HM: Miller, Rakell, Saad, W. Karlsson, Trocheck, Palat

2012 (defense heavy draft): Forsberg
HM: Galchenyuk, Teravainen, Hertl

2013: Mackinnon, Barkov, Drouin, Monahan, Horvat
HM: Lindholm, Domi, Mantha, Buchnevich, Zykov, Wennberg,

2014: Reinhart, Draisaitl, Nylander, Ehlers, Larkin, Pastrnak, Point, Arvidsson
HM: Fiala, Fabbri, Tuch, Vrana, Perlini

2015: McDavid, Eichel, Marner, Rantanen, Barzal, Connor, Boeser, Aho
HM: Strome,

2016/17/18 is too early to make a list, but that's at least 37 players from 5 drafts that have similar or better value to Voracek right now (this is excluding HM's). If I included defenseman, Voracek wouldn't even make the top 50 for 5 draft classes.

That's an awful list. Voracek is 15th in NHL scoring over the last 6 years.

 

[phil162888]

Does the word value not include age, position, and cap hit - which by the way I bolded in my previous reply but you seemed to conveniently ignore that fact.

I'd take players like Schwartz, Stone, Couts, Forsberg over Voracek easily. Fair enough, I shouldn't have said clearly, but in my view theres more than enough that are in conversation with Voracek. We're also limiting the scope to only forwards as opposed to including defenseman and goalies too.

I guess this post just proves what often is said that Voracek is one of the most underrated star players in the league. Have you even watched the guy play more then a handful of times??

 

[quesosauce]

The cap keeps going up every year and Seattle is about to join the league. 8 mil is nothing compared to what it used to be. Back when Giroux and Voracek signed their contracts the best players in the league went for 8 to 9 mil, a player like them or Tavares makes 10 to 11 on the open market now. In as little as one or two seasons Voraceks contract is going to take up less than 10% of the cap.

Of all the silly things to say, bemoaning an 8 mil contract for a PPG player still in his 20’s is up there.

seattle joining the league has exactly what to do with any of this? the cap going up doesnt matter all that much as the avs arent typically a cap team

go look at the avs cap structure, and the ages of their core players, Voracek doesnt fit any of those dynamics. He is a fantastic player, and a fit for a team who is WIN NOW mode, the avs arent currently in that mode, they will enter it in a couple years, and in a couple years Voracek will be 31+ years old making 8 millions and the avs will have younger players they need to sign. Voracek is basically what we want Rantanen to become, and he only scored one less point than Voracek last season, id rather pay him 7-8 million than Voracek.

Also, the OTT 1st rounder has huge value to us, as its the biggest piece we got back for duchene, I wouldnt trade it for anything other than an overpayment, and voracek isnt that, in my humble opinion

 

[Garbage Goal]

seattle joining the league has exactly what to do with any of this? the cap going up doesnt matter all that much as the avs arent typically a cap team

go look at the avs cap structure, and the ages of their core players, Voracek doesnt fit any of those dynamics. He is a fantastic player, and a fit for a team who is WIN NOW mode, the avs arent currently in that mode, they will enter it in a couple years, and in a couple years Voracek will be 31+ years old making 8 millions and the avs will have younger players they need to sign. Voracek is basically what we want Rantanen to become, and he only scored one less point than Voracek last season, id rather pay him 7-8 million than Voracek.

Also, the OTT 1st rounder has huge value to us, as its the biggest piece we got back for duchene, I wouldnt trade it for anything other than an overpayment, and voracek isnt that, in my humble opinion

Go look at the post I responded to, didn’t say anything about Colorado’s internal cap. Just implied Voraceks contract was awful.

 

[Deen]

Ottawa probably picks top 3 next year with that pick.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

That's an awful list. Voracek is 15th in NHL scoring over the last 6 years.

Voracek has the 19th highest cap hit in the league and he's been 15th in scoring in the past half-decade+

Add in some goalies and a d-man or two then BAM, Jake is quite literally worth exactly his contract.

 

[deftones1986]

I see my post really has some legs here lol. I just wanted to see if the trade was close to fair.....literally so I could play around on Capfriendly with the opening trade for a Flyers rebuild being this exact one.

Also, Voracek has to be better than a top 50 player right? I mean at least if we're talking just forwards here.

 

[tucker3434]

Go look at the post I responded to, didn’t say anything about Colorado’s internal cap. Just implied Voraceks contract was awful.

Only partially relevant but we don’t have an internal cap. The issue with Voracek isn’t paying him today, but paying him in 3+ years after we’ve handed out big raises to our RFA’s and MacKinnon.

 

[The CyNick]

Both teams should wait and see. What if they make the trade and Ottawa decides not to blow it up, somehow manages to re-sign EK, and the team actually meshes? That first round pick isn't going to be worth Voracek and Philly gets screwed. Flip side is, what if they make the trade, Ottawa does sell for futures, and the pick wins the lottery? Now Avs get the short end. You usually get criticized more for the moves you do make than the ones you didn't (mainly because no one knows why the trade didn't go down).

Ottawa could easily be last overall with Karlsson or without him.

 

[Patagonia]

I see my post really has some legs here lol. I just wanted to see if the trade was close to fair.....literally so I could play around on Capfriendly with the opening trade for a Flyers rebuild being this exact one.

Also, Voracek has to be better than a top 50 player right? I mean at least if we're talking just forwards here.

The problem with this proposal is the timing and money.

Voracek makes too much money and his age does not fit in the strategy of the AVs. Not only are they among the youngest teams in the league, they're still another 2-3 years to challenge for the Cup. He's already 28 years old and he'll be in decline when the AVs rise.

The Sens draft pick will play a part of the AVs future. Selecting a 18 year old, he'll be ready when the AVs are prepared to challenge for a championship.

AVs can easily wait for a draft pick to develop, there is no need for Voracek. This has nothing to due with the player, but the fit for the team. Teams drafting in the Top 10 are there for a reason, they're just terrible and earlier suggested none of them would want Voracek either. His value is with a contender and AVs are not quite at that point to make a trade for a player wasting his best years while still rebuilding.