Larry Brooks: Vitaly Kravtsov headed back to the KHL

[nyr2k2]

Do you think that Gorton & JD have not done the math and decided what is best for him? Or did the both of them just get hit with the stupid ray?

FWIW, this move could have come completely independent of the Rangers. Kravtsov has the out clause, it's his discretion to use it. It's certainly possible that the organization encouraged this, but it's also totally possible that they had no say whatsoever (or their advice fell on deaf ears).

 

[Tawnos]

IDK. I'm as patient as they come with prospects. I have no problem waiting on guys to develop. I don't like guys coming and finding that they're not in the right "mental space" and then packing up. For me, growing up, you started something, then you were committed to it. If you didn't see it through for any reason other than you were like on life support or something, then you were quitting. You sign your contract and say I'm going to play in North America, then you ****ing do it. Don't quit on it. Different worldviews, I guess.

It's not a different worldview, so much as the understanding that... no matter how determined someone might be, there could be factors that stop that person from doing what they're trying to. It's more nuanced than you're portraying it.

 

[Edge]

Lias was talked up as being NHL ready after he was drafted. Kravtsov wasn't ready. Howden should have been demoted to the AHL once he hit the wall last year.

Your commend was that they were rushing kids before they were ready, or into the NHL before they are ready.

Lias not being NHL ready is not the same as him being rushed to the NHL. Likewise the performance of Andersson and Chytil in the AHL doesn't demonstrate being rushed over either.

So that leaves us with Kravtsov, who wasn't ready and is heading back, and Howden, who arugably made the club both times out of camp --- a midseason demotion notwithstanding.

But I don't think that really qualifies for the initial "we rush kids" statement.

 

[nyr2k2]

It's not a different worldview, so much as the understanding that... no matter how determined someone might be, there could be factors that stop that person from doing what they're trying to. It's more nuanced than you're portraying it.

Well--that's the worldview aspect of it. Sure, there's nuance to lots of things, and often times it goes ignored. Maybe I'm ignoring his sensitivities or emotions or some other shit. As I told you--that's not how I grew up. Start to finish. If you start then stop, you're a quitter. If that's lacking in nuance, so be it; it's an opinion, so it's not wrong or invalid because of the lack of nuance.

 

[Kupo]

Dear Employer,

I apologize for not getting absolutely any work done today this afternoon. Something dramatic happened today that required my immediate attention. Please understand I've been a loyal Rangers fan since 1989. You should know where my allegiance stands.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Well--that's the worldview aspect of it. Sure, there's nuance to lots of things, and often times it goes ignored. Maybe I'm ignoring his sensitivities or emotions or some other ****. As I told you--that's not how I grew up. Start to finish. If you start then stop, you're a quitter. If that's lacking in nuance, so be it; it's an opinion, so it's not wrong or invalid because of the lack of nuance.

At this point we know so little that claiming things are more nuanced is actually just conjecture.

I'm disappointed about this for the same reasons you are. I'm hopeful it'll work out and from what I've seen I believe in the player. But the yo-yoing of these players is becoming a disconcerting trend. Rangers can't seem to decide on any consistent philosophy regarding their player development. Maybe they don't need it...

 

[Edge]

Well--that's the worldview aspect of it. Sure, there's nuance to lots of things, and often times it goes ignored. Maybe I'm ignoring his sensitivities or emotions or some other ****. As I told you--that's not how I grew up. Start to finish. If you start then stop, you're a quitter. If that's lacking in nuance, so be it; it's an opinion, so it's not wrong or invalid because of the lack of nuance.

Yeah, I'm just going to chalk this up to having a different world view on this matter. I don't know if there's much middle ground to be had on this one.

 

[Tawnos]

Well--that's the worldview aspect of it. Sure, there's nuance to lots of things, and often times it goes ignored. Maybe I'm ignoring his sensitivities or emotions or some other ****. As I told you--that's not how I grew up. Start to finish. If you start then stop, you're a quitter. If that's lacking in nuance, so be it; it's an opinion, so it's not wrong or invalid because of the lack of nuance.

His commitment should be about becoming the best hockey player he can become. He didn't quit, he changed the path he was on. The goal is still the same. The reason he changed the direction is up for debate, but I don't think his commitment towards that goal should be. Particularly since we've never heard a whiff of motivational or behavioral issues around him.

Besides, who cares how you grew up? This isn't about you. I don't find it especially valid for you to put your childhood instilled values on someone else, particularly not someone else from another culture. Guess what? I grew up with the same worldview. It's not germane to trying to understand what's going on here.

 

[Hanji]

His commitment should be about becoming the best hockey player he can become. He didn't quit, he changed the path he was on. The goal is still the same. The reason he changed the direction is up for debate, but I don't think his commitment towards that goal should be. Particularly since we've never heard a whiff of motivational or behavioral issues around him.

Besides, who cares how you grew up? This isn't about you. I don't find it especially valid for you to put your childhood instilled values on someone else, particularly not someone else from another culture. Guess what? I grew up with the same worldview. It's not germane to trying to understand what's going on here.

This 100%.

 

[Edge]

Look, I don't think anyone is happy about all of this. Not the Rangers, not Kravtsov, or the fans.

But I think we have to be very careful about filling in the blanks when we really don't know what transpired.

For all we know, the Rangers and Kravtsov realized a week ago that this was a path that everyone was willing to accept because the kid just wasn't ready and forcing the issue in the AHL was not going to solve any problems at this point in time. And the truth is, that could be completely off-base as well.

But whether it's close to the truth or not, the fact remains that this is a 19 year old kid, who clearly was struggling over his head, who has a lot of runway ahead of him.

 

[nyr2k2]

At this point we know so little that claiming things are more nuanced is actually just conjecture.

I'm disappointed about this for the same reasons you are. I'm hopeful it'll work out and from what I've seen I believe in the player. But the yo-yoing of these players is becoming a disconcerting trend. Rangers can't seem to decide on any consistent philosophy regarding their player development. Maybe they don't need it...

Exactly. I made a statement that he was better off working on his game here, based on the flaws I observed. That was met with "let's consider his mental space", which is fine, but is speculative, as you said.

Yeah, I'm just going to chalk this up to having a different world view on this matter. I don't know if there's much middle ground to be had on this one.

Well, my opinion is that his game is obviously lacking in a few certain areas and that the best way for him to address that is to play here. I can think of a few arguments to the contrary that I would say hold merit. So, I don't think the core issue--for me, anyway--is dependent on worldview.

The whole concept of his mental state, emotional maturity, all that, we don't know anything factual about it. So I can't really entertain that as a valid counterargument.

The fact that I believe it's "quitting" is similarly just an emotional response, and speculative. For all I know, the Rangers wanted him to go back. So the "quitting" thing isn't shaping my opinion on whether or not he should stay here.

The worldview stuff is all secondary to the main issue, at this point. IMO, anyway. If I learn more about his mental state then maybe I change my mind.

 

[Hire Sather]

Lots of issues with our young players.

Would be nice to see one of them come up and make an impact.

 

[Hire Sather]

A guy we took in the first round not good enough for the AHL a year after we drafted him?

Reason for concern. It is.

 

[nyr2k2]

His commitment should be about becoming the best hockey player he can become. He didn't quit, he changed the path he was on. The goal is still the same. The reason he changed the direction is up for debate, but I don't think his commitment towards that goal should be. Particularly since we've never heard a whiff of motivational or behavioral issues around him.

Besides, who cares how you grew up? This isn't about you. I don't find it especially valid for you to put your childhood instilled values on someone else, particularly not someone else from another culture. Guess what? I grew up with the same worldview. It's not germane to trying to understand what's going on here.

I'm not asking anyone to care about my upbringing. Much like how you shared an anecdote about your adolescence, I shared something about mine in response to you saying my opinion lacked nuance. Why do I care that your view is shaped by dropping out of college and starting your career? Let's at least be consistent, here. If you can share, so can I.

I'm not going to go back into why it's quitting. I have some stories to share about why I think that, but you don't care.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

He has to come back, he has a contract with the NHL and the NHL and KHL have an agreement to honor each others contracts. He and the Rangers agreed to have him go back to the KHL for this year but he can't sign a contract and stay over there

We'll see. It'll certainly be an inflection point in his career. But if he doesn't want to come back, he doesn't have to.

Even if Im being overly dramatic from that standpoint, it just f***ing sucks that he's throwing away time to learn the North American game

 

[Edge]

I'm not even sure this has to be a mental state issue.

This very well could be as simple and straight forward as, he needs more experience, we don't feel he's up to snuff to get that experience in the AHL, and so let him get that experience in the KHL for now.

It doesn't have to be a layered scenario involving mental states, the Rangers talent evaluations, their drafting, the personality of their coaches, the alignment of the stars, etc. etc.

It could just be as simple as everyone feeling he was ready and realizing he was not. So at that point, you have two choices: pretend he's ready and force the issue, acknowledge he isn't and reschedule this phase of his development.

Yeah, it's disappointing. But I don't see anything here that constitutes a crisis either.

 

[Tawnos]

At this point we know so little that claiming things are more nuanced is actually just conjecture.

I'm disappointed about this for the same reasons you are. I'm hopeful it'll work out and from what I've seen I believe in the player. But the yo-yoing of these players is becoming a disconcerting trend. Rangers can't seem to decide on any consistent philosophy regarding their player development. Maybe they don't need it...

This was my central point from the beginning. All the stuff about homesickness or maturity is about providing alternatives to "he's not good enough." We don't know, so rushing to judgment is really pointless.

As @Edge just pointed out, there are other alternatives.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

His commitment should be about becoming the best hockey player he can become. He didn't quit, he changed the path he was on. The goal is still the same. The reason he changed the direction is up for debate, but I don't think his commitment towards that goal should be. Particularly since we've never heard a whiff of motivational or behavioral issues around him.

Besides, who cares how you grew up? This isn't about you. I don't find it especially valid for you to put your childhood instilled values on someone else, particularly not someone else from another culture. Guess what? I grew up with the same worldview. It's not germane to trying to understand what's going on here.

Generally, I agree. But he was a healthy scratch and jumped ship on the Wolfpack after a few weeks. Is his commitment to learn the North American game really there? Its a legitimate question, even at this early stage.

 

[Tawnos]

I'm not asking anyone to care about my upbringing. Much like how you shared an anecdote about your adolescence, I shared something about mine in response to you saying my opinion lacked nuance. Why do I care that your view is shaped by dropping out of college and starting your career? Let's at least be consistent, here. If you can share, so can I.

I'm not going to go back into why it's quitting. I have some stories to share about why I think that, but you don't care.

Let's go back to what I said at the beginning, which is that there are other reasons this could've happened. My reason for providing that anecdote wasn't to say "this is what *is* happening here." It was to say "this is what *could* be happening here." We don't know enough. So why have a negative reaction to it? Or a positive one?

 

[Tawnos]

Generally, I agree. But he was a healthy scratch and jumped ship on the Wolfpack after a few weeks. Is his commitment to learn the North American game really there? Its a legitimate question, even at this early stage.

Do we know he jumped ship?

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

What a shit show. Embarrassing for the organization.

Send a top flight dynamic offensive prospect and bench him because he won’t dump and chase and gets disciplined in favor of AHL journeymen scrubs.

What a joke.

 

[Leetch3]

so does this mean it was premature to declare the rebuild over and the fastest rebuild ever?

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Do we know he jumped ship?

I don't like to speculate too much, but the tea leaves seem pretty clear on this one.

 

[Tawnos]

I don't like to speculate too much, but the tea leaves seem pretty clear on this one.

It's definitely possible, but nothing about the situation says that inherently.

Oh well, I've beat this horse enough. I don't think there's enough cause for reaction here. As @bobbop said: It is what it is.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Just pretend he’s going back to Moose Jaw instead of Chelyabinsk or wherever.

This has been show to be a bad comparison because getting sent to Junior is the Team's Choice and CHL Prospects can't play in the AHL. Going back to Russia is the Player's choice and it obviously means something hasn't worked out over here.

I'm not saying the sky is falling and he won't ever come back but i'm also not in the 'This is totally fine, nothing to worry about' crowd either. Very lukewarm and milquetoast take, I know.