Virtanen, Demko new top prospects in Vancouver Canucks Fall 2014 Top 20

[Luck 6]

The ratings are improving though...
I do believe MCcann will be the best nhl player out of Bo, Virtanen, Hunter

That's an extremely bold statement. At least one of those guys is going to reach potential, by that Id say one of them is going to be a 30 goal, 60-70 point player. You're essentially stating that McCann is going to be a 70-80 point #1C, I'm not sure about that one. What's your basis? Why are you so high on him?

 

[Shareefruck]

That's an extremely bold statement. At least one of those guys is going to reach potential, by that Id say one of them is going to be a 30 goal, 60-70 point player. You're essentially stating that McCann is going to be a 70-80 point #1C, I'm not sure about that one. What's your basis? Why are you so high on him?

Tall order considering all three project to be less than 70 point players, IMO.

I don't think McCann turning out to be the best of the four is that out of whack, personally. He has question-marks, but in my eyes, he has the most well-rounded raw tools of the bunch. If he puts everything together and things go as well as humanly possible, 60-70 points isn't out of the realm of possibility for McCann.

 

[DennisReynolds]

Hutton at 16th is a disgrace. But then, it's HFboards rankings.

 

[Virtanen2Horvat]

Hutton at 16th is a disgrace. But then, it's HFboards rankings.

So whats this Hutton guy about? Is he supposed to be a top 4 Dman and when will he leave Maine.

 

[denkiteki]

Tall order considering all three project to be less than 70 point players, IMO.

I don't think McCann turning out to be the best of the four is that out of whack, personally. He has question-marks, but in my eyes, he has the most well-rounded raw tools of the bunch. If he puts everything together and things go as well as humanly possible, 60-70 points isn't out of the realm of possibility for McCann.

That's an extremely bold statement. At least one of those guys is going to reach potential, by that Id say one of them is going to be a 30 goal, 60-70 point player. You're essentially stating that McCann is going to be a 70-80 point #1C, I'm not sure about that one. What's your basis? Why are you so high on him?

Out of those group of players (Horvat, Jensen, BG, HS, JV, and i guess McCann) you expect 1 or 2 of them will be given the chance to replace the Sedins and sooner or later would be part of the first line. It isn't beyond the realm of possibility for a 1st line player to have 30+ goals, 70+ points so those expectations are actually pretty realistic. Of course its probably not something that will happen right away or even next season but before the Sedins retired, odds are they will be dropped to the 2nd line and one (or more) of those prospect would be replacing them as 1st liners. Jensen might even get to play with them this season.

As far as McCann's being a 80 point player... realistically right now he probably projects to be the worst offensive prospect out of those listed. Of course he's more of a 2 way player and probably much better defensively than HS and Jensen already. Its not likely he'll be the best scorer in the group but just because he doesn't score the most goals/points, it doesn't mean he can't be the best of the bunch. You could make the argument that Kesler was our best player during our cup run and it wasn't because he was our best offensive player but because of his 2 way game. McCann has a lot of similar traits and could develop into a very solid defensive player who chips in offensively too. Depending on how the others develop, he could easily be the best even if he only scores say 50-60 points while shutting down the opposing team's top line.

 

[Virtanen2Horvat]

That's an extremely bold statement. At least one of those guys is going to reach potential, by that Id say one of them is going to be a 30 goal, 60-70 point player. You're essentially stating that McCann is going to be a 70-80 point #1C, I'm not sure about that one. What's your basis? Why are you so high on him?

Are you testing Benning's scouting? How dare you!

I don't think McCann will be that offensive in the game so we need someone who can bring offense for the 1C. Hopefully Fox is one of those amazing miracles or McCann steps up his offensive game. Otherwise McCann is going to be a pretty good player defensively. Maybe he will put up Kesler numbers or a little bit lower.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

We are clearly missing a de facto #1C but teams like Boston and St. Louis have proven you don't need one to lead the way. Depth is more important than high-end skill if Pittsburgh is any testament to that. I'd rather have 3 lines that can pitch in than 1 you have to rely on for scoring, if the WCE or Sedins era have proven anything.

 

[denkiteki]

So whats this Hutton guy about? Is he supposed to be a top 4 Dman and when will he leave Maine.

A forward convert to dman. Very good puck handling skill, basically your typical offensive dman who needs to work on his defensive game. Also doesn't avoid physical play (tho for the NHL, he probably needs to add some weight... that or his weight profile needs to be updated).

He could be a top 4 dman if he improves his play in his own end. At this point, he's probably a project like a couple other dman we have. The same argument probably could be made for Tommernes, McNally, and Subban (tho Subban might also have size issue to go on top of defensive issues, he also might have the best offensive skill set out of the bunch).

 

[denkiteki]

We are clearly missing a de facto #1C but teams like Boston and St. Louis have proven you don't need one to lead the way. Depth is more important than high-end skill if Pittsburgh is any testament to that. I'd rather have 3 lines that can pitch in than 1 you have to rely on for scoring, if the WCE or Sedins era have proven anything.

Difference is both teams have a #1 D. So you could make the argument of needing EITHER a #1C or #1D and none of our prospects seem to fit either mold. Of course when we made our run, he had 1A and 1B @ center with H. Sedin + Kesler and if Sedin can bounce back we still have a #1C.

That said, i agree we do need a lot more depth and our prospect pool seems to finally be starting to provide more depth (or at least it looks better on paper). Question is when will they start contributing in the NHL. MG has been credit as drafting pretty well and i tend to agree but he seems to also have a huge issue with trading away too many picks (tho i guess you can blame that on being competitive). Also as much credit as MG might have gotten, his draft pick still haven't played all that many games in the NHL (at least as 'nucks). It has been 6 years since MG took over and he probably has the fewest game played by draft picks on his team during that span (i.e. Tanev and Lack don't really count). Realistically you have Corrado playing some games and Jensen playing a few... thats about it from MG draft picks during his reign.

This season might be the year we decide if its time to blow it up and try rebuilding/selling @ the deadline. I thought we should have done that last season but for some reason we didn't. That's realistically one of the only ways to get a true #1C/#1D since almost every team makes sure to sign them to long term deals before they hit UFA these days and with the cap continuing to go up, that'll likely be the case going forward.

 

[ihaveyuidonttouchme]

Difference is both teams have a #1 D. So you could make the argument of needing EITHER a #1C or #1D and none of our prospects seem to fit either mold. Of course when we made our run, he had 1A and 1B @ center with H. Sedin + Kesler and if Sedin can bounce back we still have a #1C.

That said, i agree we do need a lot more depth and our prospect pool seems to finally be starting to provide more depth (or at least it looks better on paper). Question is when will they start contributing in the NHL. MG has been credit as drafting pretty well and i tend to agree but he seems to also have a huge issue with trading away too many picks (tho i guess you can blame that on being competitive). Also as much credit as MG might have gotten, his draft pick still haven't played all that many games in the NHL (at least as 'nucks). It has been 6 years since MG took over and he probably has the fewest game played by draft picks on his team during that span (i.e. Tanev and Lack don't really count). Realistically you have Corrado playing some games and Jensen playing a few... thats about it from MG draft picks during his reign.

This season might be the year we decide if its time to blow it up and try rebuilding/selling @ the deadline. I thought we should have done that last season but for some reason we didn't. That's realistically one of the only ways to get a true #1C/#1D since almost every team makes sure to sign them to long term deals before they hit UFA these days and with the cap continuing to go up, that'll likely be the case going forward.

2006,07 picks didnt exactly helped us much either..

anyway, a lot of MG's picks (esp '09 picks) actually played a significant time in the pro developing but they just didnt really panned out for some reason.

although there r still few picks from '09-'10 in the system but they prob wont make big impact anytime soon (at least they didnt turned total busts [not even making an impact in the minor ahl/echl ] like the previous GM's picks did...hehehe....)

u r right that he shouldve at least have had some that have made it...by now which was quite disturbing
but at the same time, his latter two yrs of picks '11-'12 r still quite "hopeful"and in good progress...


and u know the drill, the owners want/have to make it to the playoffs every yr, so blowing up wont happen anytime soon

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Do you mean #1D as in Berglund or Kelly? Those were not those types IMO. Great players no doubt, but not those type of players. I think not selling our assets now has suited us good. Everyone always *****es about a model...it's nice to invent our own in our little way. In 2008 all anyone would talk about is the Detroit model and how nice it would be to compete for a playoff spot while re-whatevering. Now in 2014 that we are doing it, all we can do is cry foul how the Chicago/Pittsburgh/Edmonton model is the way to go. I do prefer the Detroit model, it requires better scouting, and let's not forget an inherent desire to compete. These teams didn't run themselves into the ground through dumb luck. Well, they did but those teams didn't want to tank. The way they were built lead them to a tank. Whereas, I believe we are much more suited for a retool than anything. Which is what we are doing.

 

[DennisReynolds]

Do you mean #1D as in Berglund or Kelly? Those were not those types IMO. Great players no doubt, but not those type of players. I think not selling our assets now has suited us good. Everyone always *****es about a model...it's nice to invent our own in our little way. In 2008 all anyone would talk about is the Detroit model and how nice it would be to compete for a playoff spot while re-whatevering. Now in 2014 that we are doing it, all we can do is cry foul how the Chicago/Pittsburgh/Edmonton model is the way to go. I do prefer the Detroit model, it requires better scouting, and let's not forget an inherent desire to compete. These teams didn't run themselves into the ground through dumb luck. Well, they did but those teams didn't want to tank. The way they were built lead them to a tank. Whereas, I believe we are much more suited for a retool than anything. Which is what we are doing.

Speaking of the Detroit model, all you need is one of the best defencemen to ever play the game and two lucky draft picks in the later rounds that will be hall of famers while they patiently wait for their prospects to develop.

 

[Luck 6]

Tall order considering all three project to be less than 70 point players, IMO.

I don't think McCann turning out to be the best of the four is that out of whack, personally. He has question-marks, but in my eyes, he has the most well-rounded raw tools of the bunch. If he puts everything together and things go as well as humanly possible, 60-70 points isn't out of the realm of possibility for McCann.

Virtanen is a 6th overall pick and Horvat is a 9th overall pick. If you don't think that going in there is at least a reasonable chance that these guys develop into 60-70 point players then you probably shouldn't be drafting them. I realize that points aren't everything, but when drafting in the top 10 you should be looking for a game changer. I think that was the idea with Virtanen, I think he has that kind of upside.

If I'm wrong, fine. I get a few nice "do overs" with Horvat and Shinkaruk to help validate my statement

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

I think Virtanen will be "the one" out of the current bunch.

Bo is a no-miss but how high is his ceiling going to be?

If McCann can really play up to his potential and be that Claude Giroux breakthrough guy, then oh boy!

 

[Virtanen2Horvat]

I think Virtanen will be "the one" out of the current bunch.

Bo is a no-miss but how high is his ceiling going to be?

If McCann can really play up to his potential and be that Claude Giroux breakthrough guy, then oh boy!

I can see McCann producing the same pace as Giroux. Well like what I mean by that is more assists than goals. He is a two-way forward and his assists are higher than goals. I hope Horvat can bring a more offensive role on the 2nd line if he isn't fit to be a 1C. Anyways these guys have to be developed perfectly to take on the role of 1C. I think McCann has a better chance cause of his high hockey IQ. But we will see how Horvat's talent transfers into the NHL, all he got was 2 assists in the pre-season, I want to see some more offense from him.

 

[Shareefruck]

Out of those group of players (Horvat, Jensen, BG, HS, JV, and i guess McCann) you expect 1 or 2 of them will be given the chance to replace the Sedins and sooner or later would be part of the first line. It isn't beyond the realm of possibility for a 1st line player to have 30+ goals, 70+ points so those expectations are actually pretty realistic. Of course its probably not something that will happen right away or even next season but before the Sedins retired, odds are they will be dropped to the 2nd line and one (or more) of those prospect would be replacing them as 1st liners. Jensen might even get to play with them this season.

As far as McCann's being a 80 point player... realistically right now he probably projects to be the worst offensive prospect out of those listed. Of course he's more of a 2 way player and probably much better defensively than HS and Jensen already. Its not likely he'll be the best scorer in the group but just because he doesn't score the most goals/points, it doesn't mean he can't be the best of the bunch. You could make the argument that Kesler was our best player during our cup run and it wasn't because he was our best offensive player but because of his 2 way game. McCann has a lot of similar traits and could develop into a very solid defensive player who chips in offensively too. Depending on how the others develop, he could easily be the best even if he only scores say 50-60 points while shutting down the opposing team's top line.

Certainly, 70+ points is within the realm of possibility of HS, BH, and JV, but it shouldn't be a given that one of them will probably hit it, IMO.

I'm only arguing that it's possible that McCann could turn out better offensively and that it isn't certain one of the other guys do. That doesn't mean that I think McCann has anywhere close to as good chance of doing it than the other guys.

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

McCann does seem to have the most "well rounded" offensive toolset. Whether he gets everything going at the same appears to be the question.

 

[biturbo19]

A forward convert to dman. Very good puck handling skill, basically your typical offensive dman who needs to work on his defensive game. Also doesn't avoid physical play (tho for the NHL, he probably needs to add some weight... that or his weight profile needs to be updated).

He could be a top 4 dman if he improves his play in his own end. At this point, he's probably a project like a couple other dman we have. The same argument probably could be made for Tommernes, McNally, and Subban (tho Subban might also have size issue to go on top of defensive issues, he also might have the best offensive skill set out of the bunch).

I still feel like Jordan Subban's offensive skillset tends to be a bit overrated here. I think in large part, due to his lack of other attributes (size, defensive stability, etc), people compensate by overemphasizing his "offensive ability". Don't get me wrong, he obviously has some very nice offensive skills and if he's ever going to make it, those offensive skills are going to be his meal ticket. In fairness, playing a poor team probably doesn't help, but in general i just don't know that i've seen the sort of ability to just completely take a game over offensively that you typically see from these successful "smallish offensive defencemen" in their post-draft Junior years. And the production just isn't quite there either. He's dynamic for sure and has some particularly flashy abilities, but i'm just not convinced that he's as dynamic as a lot of people want to give him credit for. And "smallish" is probably being generous with Subban, nor is the defensive game near the level that would help balance things out. Big obstacles ahead for him (pun intended).

He's going to have to have a monster season this year imo, if i'm going to consider him as the sort of very undersized "offensive defenceman" who looks like a real viable NHL prospect. I'm talking...PPG+ production with continued improvement defensively. Not outside the realm of possibility i guess, but also far from a certainty.

 

[ihaveyuidonttouchme]

^^ that's a lot to ask for a guy who was a 5th rounder. His last two yrs went 0.75 then down to 0.63
To me, he doesnt have that kind of skill level like Ellis or Murphy does to carry the team.
at the same time, Bulls are not quite the same team it once was before and is now on the rebuild. So actually, dont be surprised to see a regressed yr

i would cautiously expect his production this yr. imo a ~0.70ppg+ production is what i'd target for him and go from there

 

[ddawg1950]

Speaking of the Detroit model, all you need is one of the best defencemen to ever play the game and two lucky draft picks in the later rounds that will be hall of famers while they patiently wait for their prospects to develop.

No kidding.

I've always had a healthy respect for luck.

Of course, I also buy into the "have to be good to be lucky" cliche.

So...we're doomed.

 

[biturbo19]

^^ that's a lot to ask for a guy who was a 5th rounder. His last two yrs went 0.75 then down to 0.63
To me, he doesnt have that kind of skill level like Ellis or Murphy does to carry the team.
at the same time, Bulls are not quite the same team it once was before and is now on the rebuild. So actually, dont be surprised to see a regressed yr

i would cautiously expect his production this yr. imo a ~0.70ppg+ production is what i'd target for him and go from there

Sure, it's a lot to ask of a 4th rounder. Most 4th rounders don't pan out as "viable NHL prospects". That's the cold hard reality.

And that's what is facing Subban. Bad team or not, if he's a guy who is going to fill the expected "niche" of "undersized offensive dynamo who is kept on the roster for his exceptional offensive ability", he's going to have to show it in Junior first. And to date, he has not shown that. 0.7PPG for a draft+2 relatively one-dimensional "offensive defenceman" standing 5 foot 8 isn't promising at all. It's harsh, but the development of NHL prospects is harsh, that's the nature of the business.

The expectations on a 4th round pick are obviously lower, but despite the fact Subban was picked in the 4th round (and for good reason), he's still ultimately competing for the same sort of role as a guy like Ellis/Murphy in the NHL, draft status doesn't matter much in that...and he is going to have to net the offensive results to warrant a spot at the next level just as they have. A draft+2 year @ ~.7PPG would put him in the same "offensive ballpark" as the Frankie Corrado, Evan McEneny types...and it's pretty clear there's a major gulf in the "all around" game, defensively, size wise, etc.

I think what you're voicing is a common theme with Jordan Subban...but i'm not sure it's all that realistic. The idea that because he was only a 4th round pick, he somehow doesn't need to post extremely good CHL results to remain a viable NHL prospect. That may be true of those destined for a "role player" niche...but for a guy whose offensive skills will make or break his future, demonstrating some offensive dominance and extremely good production is pretty much a must imo.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

It's bold, and I like that. The rankings are always as much as a crapshoot as the draft, so in 5 or 10 years, it could feasibly turn out in such a way.

Worthy of internet banter as we await the season.

I like the bullishness on Tryamkin. I can see why Benning liked this guy, his skating, size and puck skills are impressive enough that most will agree that he's a surefire NHLer, it just depends on if he's a just a journeyman bubble guy who will eventually return to the KHL, or a true top 4 (upside realized) long-term core player.

Demko is a stretch, IMO we need to see how he fares in the NCAA and if he makes the WJC team. Schneider won the starters job quickly but had a poor WJC in both appearances IIRC. That said, goalies take time and are hard to predict.

Guys like Zalewski and Grenier IMO shouldn't be ranked above players like Corrado who are already NHL calibre.

 

[Love]

I think Virtanen will be "the one" out of the current bunch.

Bo is a no-miss but how high is his ceiling going to be?

If McCann can really play up to his potential and be that Claude Giroux breakthrough guy, then oh boy!

Why do people constantly use Giroux as a comparable to McCann? There is literally nothing similar about them.

There is also nothing similar about Giroux putting up 103 points in 69 games in his draft year and McCann putting up 62 points in 64 games in his.

 

[Bourdon]

I've heard a lot of good things about McCann. No, he did not produce at an especially good rate in his draft year, but if he had, he would not have been available where he was. He has one of the highest hockey IQs in the draft, very polished defensively, relentless worker, excellent skater, has great vision and a big shot to boot.

On paper, Horvat is equatable to McCann, only Horvat can't skate or stick handle the way McCann can.

 

[denkiteki]

2006,07 picks didnt exactly helped us much either..

anyway, a lot of MG's picks (esp '09 picks) actually played a significant time in the pro developing but they just didnt really panned out for some reason.

although there r still few picks from '09-'10 in the system but they prob wont make big impact anytime soon (at least they didnt turned total busts [not even making an impact in the minor ahl/echl ] like the previous GM's picks did...hehehe....)

u r right that he shouldve at least have had some that have made it...by now which was quite disturbing
but at the same time, his latter two yrs of picks '11-'12 r still quite "hopeful"and in good progress...


and u know the drill, the owners want/have to make it to the playoffs every yr, so blowing up wont happen anytime soon

Yeah i agree that recent drafts have been hopeful but his first few years have already proven to be flops like you said. That probably didn't help him keep his job. Of course part of the blame for the first few years include trades done before him and trades he did. Guess that's part of the price for being a playoff contender (and considered a cup contender so thus forced to be buyers).

I was actually quite happy with the last couple drafts but of course its too early for them to contribute and fact remains, during MG's era, not many of his picks contributed much... even if you consider ZK his pick (since it was pretty much a 1 for 1 swap of his first pick).

Benning will likely get the same benefit that MG get. Picks at the end of Norris's era stepped up and contributed to the team making his job much easier and probably gave him more asset than he originally thought. At least it made it passable for MG to have a couple poor drafts.