Viola, Cifu talk about the future of the Panthers (explanation in OP)

[Fugu]

Thats not really a good thing...

His point was that there may be an overreaction happening with regard to the current numbers. It's more in line with their history than this being indicative of some change in the negative direction.

 

[End on a Hinote]

Karmanos has indicated it is time to sell and last year he cut ties with Jim Rutherford ( now in Pittsburgh ).

We have tended to simply assume that the Panthers are the team destined for Quebec but the reality is Carolina and New Jersey are also shaky. Consider this - Even with the Dolan TV money the Devils get from MSG, the NHL had to loan the Devils money to make payroll a couple of years ago.

I can see PKP dangling a cashier's check of $500 M (USD) to get an established team simply because it would increase the value of TVA.

It's probably just me, but I can't see a team with a Cup to their name relocating. I have no evidence to back this up with other than it hasn't happened since the 1927 Senators. I just cannot see the Canes or Devils moving mainly due to their Cup histories. I always looked at winning the Stanley Cup as earning unofficial franchise immunity.

 

[mouser]

FSN is losing big money on the Panthers right now and games are expensive to produce. You need about 30,000 viewers to break even and they are not close to that statewide.

They make it back on subscriber fees.

Any source info that FSN is losing money on the broadcasts? The RSN's make the majority of their income on carrier fees irrespective of how many people watch an individual broadcast.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

All we can do is speculate.

But if PKP is willing to spend up to $500M (USD) for a team somebody will jump. PKP might go that high just to increase value of TVA.

I really believe there will be a team in Quebec next season and I think 3 teams are in flux - Florida, Carolina and Nashville.

There is absolutely nothing logical about including Nashville as a team that are in flux. I doubt there is a team in Quebec next year and they may never get one depending on how things shake out. I think they'll only get a relocated team but I don't see any team relocating there. I think Arizona may relocate but I don't think it'll be to Quebec.

 

[Fenway]

Exactly how is Nashville preparing to move? Outside of similar Geography what do they have in common with Carolina and they have nothing in common Florida? They are at 97% capacity attendance. Give me evidence of Nashville's demise.

Even with decent attendance they are still losing money. The major newspaper eliminated the beat reporter's position for the team. They never report TV numbers ( neither does Carolina ) so we don't really know how much interest is in the team beyond the hardcores.

A few years ago FOX Tennessee did not show a playoff game because it was the same night as the NFL Draft. ( It was on NBCSN )

All I am suggesting is as we get closer to next season, Quebecor is going to be waving a boatload of cash. and it would be foolish to think Nashville ownership won't consider an offer. PKP can afford to overpay because if he snags a team, the TVA Network doubles in value overnight.

 

[Fugu]

It's probably just me, but I can't see a team with a Cup to their name relocating. I have no evidence to back this up with other than it hasn't happened since the 1927 Senators. I just cannot see the Canes or Devils moving mainly due to their Cup histories. I always looked at winning the Stanley Cup as earning unofficial franchise immunity.

You know what can make a team that has won a Cup move? Having an owner who isn't willing to brook losses of $20-30 million per year indefinitely, for example.

I get what you're saying but at the end of the day, if that Cup status isn't helping the bottom line and the building is empty, sure, I can see a team moving.

 

[Soundgarden]

Even with decent attendance they are still losing money. The major newspaper eliminated the beat reporter's position for the team. They never report TV numbers ( neither does Carolina ) so we don't really know how much interest is in the team beyond the hardcores.

A few years ago FOX Tennessee did not show a playoff game because it was the same night as the NFL Draft. ( It was on NBCSN )

All I am suggesting is as we get closer to next season, Quebecor is going to be waving a boatload of cash. and it would be foolish to think Nashville ownership won't consider an offer. PKP can afford to overpay because if he snags a team, the TVA Network doubles in value overnight.

Josh Cooper got fired because he sucked at his job and chose to talk about the bachelorette more than the Predators. You will not find one fan who is going to miss him. I have no idea why you bring him up though, he has nothing to do with this team, or any made up plot for us to move.

We are around break even every year, our owners realize this and they make money in other ways. They aren't moving the team because they might be losing half a million to two million a year. Not to mention the arena is one of the busiest in North America. We are being depended on to bring 17,000 people out onto broadway each game night, just look at the half season lock-out a few years ago broadway lost millions. Losing the preds would hurt, I think it's safe to say they are already ingrained into the culture there.

 

[Fugu]

Even with decent attendance they are still losing money. The major newspaper eliminated the beat reporter's position for the team. They never report TV numbers ( neither does Carolina ) so we don't really know how much interest is in the team beyond the hardcores.

A few years ago FOX Tennessee did not show a playoff game because it was the same night as the NFL Draft. ( It was on NBCSN )

All I am suggesting is as we get closer to next season, Quebecor is going to be waving a boatload of cash. and it would be foolish to think Nashville ownership won't consider an offer. PKP can afford to overpay because if he snags a team, the TVA Network doubles in value overnight.

Just to be clear, this is your conjecture about which owners may wish to sell?

That said, I'm still inclined to think that the existing owner can only capitalize on the value of their team in their current market. Keep in mind that the NHL takes any money that is the difference in value between two markets. Plus, they need the league's approval to move any team.

 

[Fugu]

Josh Cooper got fired because he sucked at his job and chose to talk about the bachelorette more than the Predators. You will not find one fan who is going to miss him. I have no idea why you bring him up though, he has nothing to do with this team, or any made up plot for us to move.

We are around break even every year, our owners realize this and they make money in other ways. They aren't moving the team because they might be losing half a million to two million a year. Not to mention the arena is one of the busiest in North America. We are being depended on to bring 17,000 people out onto broadway each game night, just look at the half season lock-out a few years ago broadway lost millions. Losing the preds would hurt, I think it's safe to say they are already ingrained into the culture there.

Was he replaced?

 

[sandysan]

Josh Cooper got fired because he sucked at his job and chose to talk about the bachelorette more than the Predators. You will not find one fan who is going to miss him. I have no idea why you bring him up though, he has nothing to do with this team, or any made up plot for us to move.

We are around break even every year, our owners realize this and they make money in other ways. They aren't moving the team because they might be losing half a million to two million a year. Not to mention the arena is one of the busiest in North America. We are being depended on to bring 17,000 people out onto broadway each game night, just look at the half season lock-out a few years ago broadway lost millions. Losing the preds would hurt, I think it's safe to say they are already ingrained into the culture there.

Is the city of Nashville still cutting the team a check every year ( rumored to be in the region of 8 mill a year).

And it's great that the team can make money off other things, but I'm not sure that keeping your head above water on the back of gin blossoms concerts is the ringing endorsement some might think.

" and if you don't expect too much from me, you might not be let down"

 

[Fenway]

Just to be clear, this is your conjecture about which owners may wish to sell?

That said, I'm still inclined to think that the existing owner can only capitalize on the value of their team in their current market. Keep in mind that the NHL takes any money that is the difference in value between two markets. Plus, they need the league's approval to move any team.

Everything is conjecture. The reality is how 2 men feel about it - Bettman and Jacobs.

Jim Balsillie had he played by the NHL rules would likely be an owner today but he enraged Jacobs by trying to go around the BoG. PKP has been a model citizen until now.

All of my friends who live in Montreal feel the same way. There is no way the local and provincial government would have constructed that arena unless they were 100% certain a team would come when the building is ready. The Olympics fiasco of 1976 is still a strong memory and is the main reason the Nordiques and Expos never got new buildings.

Things work very slowly in Quebec. The Boston-Montreal autoroute was supposed to have been finished in 1967. It is now scheduled for completion in 2019. (one section just opened 2 weeks ago)

 

[Killion]

All I am suggesting is as we get closer to next season, Quebecor is going to be waving a boatload of cash. and it would be foolish to think Nashville ownership won't consider an offer. PKP can afford to overpay because if he snags a team, the TVA Network doubles in value overnight.

Well, as youve qualified in a subsequent post citing Balsillie I dont believe PKP/Quebecor have any need to be going Rogue, looking for the backdoor or an open window. Im not sure whether it be through Expansion or Relocation at this moment in time but I am 110% certain that the fix is in despite adamant denials from league personnel that its not. And while he can indeed afford to over~pay & artificially over-inflate franchise values across the board theres no need for it as Im also convinced terms & pricing are already fully formed... while I can understand & appreciate your suggestion about Nashville & Carolina, I dont think so, not in play at all, though with the latter, Karmano's, bit of a Wild Card for sure.

 

[Fenway]

Is the city of Nashville still cutting the team a check every year ( rumored to be in the region of 8 mill a year).

And it's great that the team can make money off other things, but I'm not sure that keeping your head above water on the back of gin blossoms concerts is the ringing endorsement some might think.

" and if you don't expect too much from me, you might not be let down"

Nashville has one important ally with the BoG as Jacobs has the concessions at Bridgestone.

Jacobs also has the NHL concessions in Tampa, Columbus, Edmonton, Buffalo and Boston.

http://www.delawarenorth.com/map.aspx?mapvar=Sports Venues

 

[Killion]

Nashville has one important ally with the BoG as Jacobs has the concessions at Bridgestone.

Ya, theres "that" however compounding matters in light of what's transpired in Tennessee with ownership etc, the loss of Atlanta & that any further retreat from the South would only be viewed in the negative, and in light of the fact that Nashville does indeed appear to have turned the corner, future looking so bright they need shades, not seeing it. Not a chance in fact their going anywhere. Arizona & Florida however.....

 

[MontrealYul]

I don't think a Nashville relocation to Quebec would be approved by the NHL. It would completely screw up conferences and divisions.

 

[angry_treefrog]

Thanks for sharing your perspective, there was previously another ATH who posted they didn't like the new policy because it depreciated the ability to resell tickets they couldn't use ( which I never really understood, but it's not my skin in the game).

The exact opposite has been my experience. I have had no problem selling my tickets this year.

I would take that post with an enormous grain of salt.

 

[sandysan]

Nashville has one important ally with the BoG as Jacobs has the concessions at Bridgestone.

Jacobs also has the NHL concessions in Tampa, Columbus, Edmonton, Buffalo and Boston.

http://www.delawarenorth.com/map.aspx?mapvar=Sports Venues

Is the concession deal dependent on the preds staying?

If not, they might take a hit but then again we can simply replicate the sprint center, again, right?

 

[Gnashville]

Even with decent attendance they are still losing money. The major newspaper eliminated the beat reporter's position for the team. They never report TV numbers ( neither does Carolina ) so we don't really know how much interest is in the team beyond the hardcores.

A few years ago FOX Tennessee did not show a playoff game because it was the same night as the NFL Draft. ( It was on NBCSN )

All I am suggesting is as we get closer to next season, Quebecor is going to be waving a boatload of cash. and it would be foolish to think Nashville ownership won't consider an offer. PKP can afford to overpay because if he snags a team, the TVA Network doubles in value overnight.

The team is at break even and small profit but not losing money. The Owners state this over and over. The arena makes massive amounts of money for the owners.
The major newspaper fired more than just the Predators beat writer they fired one third of it's staff. It is called downsizing. Cooper was not liked by the Predators fans and had very little tenure compared to other writers for the paper.

The local interest is very high, certainly enough to sell over 16.5K tickets per night. Fox doesn't report it's numbers but they can be found they are no better or worse than any other markets' and all road games and all but 5 home games are on television so Fox has no problem with the team or it's ratings.

As you noted the game was on NBCSN which had more to do with Fox not carrying the game than the NFL draft. NBC does not like competition for national broadcasts. I doubt most markets show the game on two different stations.


The Predators are owned by local interests and I highly doubt Quebecor would target a more expensive team when others would be much cheaper. But hey using that logic they could wave a billion in MLSE face and they too would be foolish not to consider also.

Nashville has one important ally with the BoG as Jacobs has the concessions at Bridgestone.

Jacobs also has the NHL concessions in Tampa, Columbus, Edmonton, Buffalo and Boston.

http://www.delawarenorth.com/map.aspx?mapvar=Sports Venues

This deal was signed years after the Balsillie ordeal and had very little to do with Jacobs "helping" Nashville. As you noted he also has other deals with other teams. I guess Leipold would also be an ally since he once owned the team. The fact is you are grasping at straws because you and others would prefer the Predators in another location. This is wild speculation.

 

[Gnashville]

Is the city of Nashville still cutting the team a check every year ( rumored to be in the region of 8 mill a year).

And it's great that the team can make money off other things, but I'm not sure that keeping your head above water on the back of gin blossoms concerts is the ringing endorsement some might think.

" and if you don't expect too much from me, you might not be let down"

Once again don't let facts get in the way of a rant.
The check is for arena management and upkeep and comes from taxes paid on tickets purchased for events in Nashville. The Predators are paid a percentage of the revenue the city collects from this tax. With out the Predators the ticket tax becomes less. 45 games at 16.5 tickets sold equals 742500 tickets per year the tax is more than 2 dollars per seat. So that is 1485000 dollars at minimum. Nashville would never be able to book that many concerts and events most of which seat less than hockey.

If the team loses let's say 1 million this season but the arena makes 4.5 million the team made 3.5 million correct. How is that bad? Two teams in Canada lose by far more money that that and no one suggests moving them.

 

[sandysan]

Once again don't let facts get in the way of a rant.
The check is for arena management and upkeep and comes from taxes paid on tickets purchased for events in Nashville. The Predators are paid a percentage of the revenue the city collects from this tax. With out the Predators the ticket tax becomes less. 45 games at 16.5 tickets sold equals 742500 tickets per year the tax is more than 2 dollars per seat. So that is 1485000 dollars at minimum. Nashville would never be able to book that many concerts and events most of which seat less than hockey.

If the team loses let's say 1 million this season but the arena makes 4.5 million the team made 3.5 million correct. How is that bad? Two teams in Canada lose by far more money that that and no one suggests moving them.

So the answer on the city subsidy is yes?

Again you can have it one of two ways, you can claim to be a market that stands on its own merits or you can claim the team is solvent off the backs of gin blossoms concerts. If you chose the later, it's a hard sell for the former.

Is the purpose to someday get to being financially successful independent of the gin blossoms or is the status quo the long term plan?

Yes some Canadian teams lose money, but even the ones that do are not loss leaders to get access to arena keys. I ask again is this the zenith of your aspirations?

 

[Gnashville]

So the answer on the city subsidy is yes?

Again you can have it one of two ways, you can claim to be a market that stands on its own merits or you can claim the team is solvent off the backs of gin blossoms concerts. If you chose the later, it's a hard sell for the former.

Is the purpose to someday get to being financially successful independent of the gin blossoms or is the status quo the long term plan?

Yes some Canadian teams lose money, but even the ones that do are not loss leaders to get access to arena keys. I ask again is this the zenith of your aspirations?

It is not a subsidy they are maintaining the arena for the city. If they move then the city is left holding the bag for the total cost of that. Like I said earlier the team says it's profitable so the money from Gin Blossoms concerts is a bonus. Just like revenue sharing monies paid to Canadian teams are bonuses for them other than the two claiming to be losing money. Where their plans to become solvent?

 

[sandysan]

It is not a subsidy they are maintaining the arena for the city. If they move then the city is left holding the bag for the total cost of that. Like I said earlier the team says it's profitable so the money from Gin Blossoms concerts is a bonus. Just like revenue sharing monies paid to Canadian teams are bonuses for them other than the two claiming to be losing money. Where their plans to become solvent?

I believe thequestion is when do they intend to return to solvency. They may be having troubles currently, but they ain't the st Louis blues either.

What's the values of the CTC without the sens ? Ask the same question for the thrashers ( oops they got evicted) the panthers and tons of other teams, who are loss leaders to simply hold the arena keys.

The sens are currently hurting sure. That being said I have no problem with them getting back into the black, and it won't take another 20 or 30 years. You confident about that for the hockey side on your end?

 

[aqib]

Nashville isn't going anywhere. They are drawing well. Even die hard relocationists like myself don't have Nashville on our list. Right now Florida is #1 on the list.

 

[Gnashville]

I believe thequestion is when do they intend to return to solvency. They may be having troubles currently, but they ain't the st Louis blues either.

What's the values of the CTC without the sens ? Ask the same question for the thrashers ( oops they got evicted) the panthers and tons of other teams, who are loss leaders to simply hold the arena keys.

The sens are currently hurting sure. That being said I have no problem with them getting back into the black, and it won't take another 20 or 30 years. You confident about that for the hockey side on your end?

Yes I am very confident and my team has never went bankrupt either.

 

[flapanthersfan]

Nashville isn't going anywhere. They are drawing well. Even die hard relocationists like myself don't have Nashville on our list. Right now Florida is #1 on the list.

Nashville was #1 on everyones list not too long ago.

Statements like these just help prove as to why relocation in these markets is not necessary.

Yes, Florida is struggling at the moment. But that doesn't mean they will be in the future.