Very quick Ilitch/Yzerman update

[Frk It]

When the guy is a multiple Cup winner and his legacy basically establishes him as a Hall of Fame GM?

They'll play fair by him.

See what Melnyk did with Alfie. Hall of Fame player, got done dirty at end of career. A guy like Holland has earned the right to walk out of the job head held high. Not unceremoniously fired because of the last couple years.

I don’t think anyone is above being fired, if that answers your question. We saw this with Lombardi after multiple Cup wins. These things happen. We are kind of insulated and in our own little bubble as far as this is concerned.

Aside from that - I was curious what people thought doing him dirty would entail.

I have 0 concern that if they were to move on from Holland they would go about it the right way, I think that they would.

 

[Henkka]

You don’t maintain status quo when you stink... that’s not how it works.

1 year doesn't mean a thing.

I'm not expecting Holland to be here after his contract. But they can be one year together as a split role. Yzerman will hire his future staff on that year and Holland does the player side. Most of, decisions together.

 

[Frk It]

1 year doesn't mean a thing.

I'm not expecting Holland to be here after his contract. But they can be one year together as a split role. Yzerman will hire his future staff on that year and Holland does the player side. Most of, decisions together.

I see, that would be fine if you meant as just a bridge thing.

 

[Run the Jewels]

It's not a surprise that there is an element that thinks Ken Holland should be able to dictate how long he serves as General Manager and anything less is "doing him dirty". I do think he should be given the opportunity to move into another role like Yzerman's current role in Tampa but the days of him calling the shots have come and gone. Since 2012-13 when he started promoting the Retool on the Fly strategy and argued against any sort of true rebuild he's spent nearly a half a billion dollars on rosters that have been trending down to the point we are one of the two worst teams in the league right now. Now he's suddenly talking about a rebuild he totally dismissed for the past several years.

With Yzerman becoming available it provides a perfect opportunity to move on from Holland's preferred method of handling the Retool on the Fly. It has been a total failure and we don't need a guy in his mid 60s going into the final year of his contract embarking on a strategy he has no interest in pursuing. Let him move up to another role or whatever but it is absolute insanity to say he needs to be given carte blanche to do whatever he likes in his final year as a lame duck. You cannot say with a straight face that a guy has been "done dirty"when he's given $475 million to pursue his every whim on roster management.

He's failed spectacularly and has no one to blame but himself.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yea

I don’t think anyone is above being fired, if that answers your question. We saw this with Lombardi after multiple Cup wins. These things happen. We are kind of insulated and in our own little bubble as far as this is concerned.

Aside from that - I was curious what people thought doing him dirty would entail.

I have 0 concern that if they were to move on from Holland they would go about it the right way, I think that they would.

Neither do I. I'm just saying there is a huge difference between tossing him out on his ass and telling him you're going another direction. That's all I was saying. Even firing him, it's gonna be a "hey, bump up into the cozy chairs with Jimmy D or best wishes in Seattle." It's just not going to be "KEN HOLLAND FIRED AS GM OF DETROIT RED WINGS". That's not a headline you'll see. It'll be steps down or resigns or leaves Detroit to go to Seattle.

It's not a surprise that there is an element that thinks Ken Holland should be able to dictate how long he serves as General Manager and anything less is "doing him dirty". I do think he should be given the opportunity to move into another role like Yzerman's current role in Tampa but the days of him calling the shots have come and gone. Since 2012-13 when he started promoting the Retool on the Fly strategy and argued against any sort of true rebuild he's spent nearly a half a billion dollars on rosters that have been trending down to the point we are one of the two worst teams in the league right now. Now he's suddenly talking about a rebuild he totally dismissed for the past several years.

With Yzerman becoming available it provides a perfect opportunity to move on from Holland's preferred method of handling the Retool on the Fly. It has been a total failure and we don't need a guy in his mid 60s going into the final year of his contract embarking on a strategy he has no interest in pursuing. Let him move up to another role or whatever but it is absolute insanity to say he needs to be given carte blanche to do whatever he likes in his final year as a lame duck. You cannot say with a straight face that a guy has been "done dirty"when he's given $475 million to pursue his every whim on roster management.

He's failed spectacularly and has no one to blame but himself.

I don't think he should be able to dictate how long. I just think that when you do fire him or allow him to resign, there is no need to say "get your ass out of here, old man!" And also, you're buying into the hype of Yzerman as the great savior too much. He's not going to come in and work miracles or, realistically, do much different than Holland has done. Yzerman respects Holland. Yzerman learned a crapton about GM'ing from Holland. I think everyone is just hopping onto the "ANYONE BUT HOLLAND" mindset and that's coalescing with Yzerman being The Captain as well as the best GM on the market.

 

[Hen Kolland]

It's not a surprise that there is an element that thinks Ken Holland should be able to dictate how long he serves as General Manager and anything less is "doing him dirty". I do think he should be given the opportunity to move into another role like Yzerman's current role in Tampa but the days of him calling the shots have come and gone. Since 2012-13 when he started promoting the Retool on the Fly strategy and argued against any sort of true rebuild he's spent nearly a half a billion dollars on rosters that have been trending down to the point we are one of the two worst teams in the league right now. Now he's suddenly talking about a rebuild he totally dismissed for the past several years.

With Yzerman becoming available it provides a perfect opportunity to move on from Holland's preferred method of handling the Retool on the Fly. It has been a total failure and we don't need a guy in his mid 60s going into the final year of his contract embarking on a strategy he has no interest in pursuing. Let him move up to another role or whatever but it is absolute insanity to say he needs to be given carte blanche to do whatever he likes in his final year as a lame duck. You cannot say with a straight face that a guy has been "done dirty"when he's given $475 million to pursue his every whim on roster management.

He's failed spectacularly and has no one to blame but himself.

This is a slippery slope because it was also under his watch that we had some of the most dominant teams in NHL history, I don’t care what era it was in. No matter if he started it in 2012 or 2017, this team was eventually going to run out of good fortune of being the only team to siphon talent out of Europe. They were going to be damaged by their continued success. So yes his apprehension to blow it up has shifted the timeline of the burden we currently have, but his actions were never going to prevent it.

I can’t even truly fault him for burning the candle at both ends. Sacrificing draft capital chasing playoff success, but with the legacy of the franchise, we can pretend to be “woke” but in reality we would probably be heavily tempted to chase the same things he did.

His ultimate undoing will be his unwavering faith in his guys and his farm system. Ironically, loyalty is exactly the thing we are discussing not being able to give him.

 

[Ezekial]

1 year doesn't mean a thing.

I'm not expecting Holland to be here after his contract. But they can be one year together as a split role. Yzerman will hire his future staff on that year and Holland does the player side. Most of, decisions together.

 

[kliq]

It's not a surprise that there is an element that thinks Ken Holland should be able to dictate how long he serves as General Manager and anything less is "doing him dirty". I do think he should be given the opportunity to move into another role like Yzerman's current role in Tampa but the days of him calling the shots have come and gone. Since 2012-13 when he started promoting the Retool on the Fly strategy and argued against any sort of true rebuild he's spent nearly a half a billion dollars on rosters that have been trending down to the point we are one of the two worst teams in the league right now. Now he's suddenly talking about a rebuild he totally dismissed for the past several years.

With Yzerman becoming available it provides a perfect opportunity to move on from Holland's preferred method of handling the Retool on the Fly. It has been a total failure and we don't need a guy in his mid 60s going into the final year of his contract embarking on a strategy he has no interest in pursuing. Let him move up to another role or whatever but it is absolute insanity to say he needs to be given carte blanche to do whatever he likes in his final year as a lame duck. You cannot say with a straight face that a guy has been "done dirty"when he's given $475 million to pursue his every whim on roster management.

He's failed spectacularly and has no one to blame but himself.

While there are valid points here, you really aren't painting an accurate picture of Holland's tenure in Detroit. I think I said this to you in a different thread a few weeks back, but Holland did a spectacular job between 1998 and 2012, which included a re-build on the fly between 2002 and 2008. He did a bad job between 2013 and 2016 (tried to do a second re-build on the fly and it bombed). Then from 2017 to present date, he's done well with the re-build and is going in the right direction.

I don't understand why you seem to fixate on a 4 year window within a 21 year career. No doubt that window was a colossal failure, looking back on it, Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan and co. were not good enough to keep this team as contenders post Lidstrom, and his trying to do so left us as mediocre and in no man's land.

When the streak ended, so did Holland's strategy as most of his moves post streak have been all about the re-build. Obviously Holland doesn't believe in utter tanking Edmonton style, I wont argue that he wants to torch it to the ground, he doesnt. But he has shown with the trades of Smith, Vanek, Ott, Sheahan, Sproul, Wilson, Mrazek, Tatar, Jensen and Nyquist, that he is now doing what everybody criticized him for not doing years ago, yet for some reason a segment (you included) just fixate on those 4 years.

The way you speak about Holland, you would think we are talking about Matt Millen.

I am good with moving on from Holland if the GM taking over is a better fit, and if Yzerman is that person, I would be ecstatic. But this false narrative that Holland is a garbage GM because of those 4 bad years is just getting old and tiring to read as it just seems to take over every single thread.

You need to move on.

*edit for grammer*

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

And also, you're buying into the hype of Yzerman as the great savior too much. He's not going to come in and work miracles or, realistically, do much different than Holland has done. Yzerman respects Holland. Yzerman learned a crapton about GM'ing from Holland. I think everyone is just hopping onto the "ANYONE BUT HOLLAND" mindset and that's coalescing with Yzerman being The Captain as well as the best GM on the market.

Ummm what????!Absolutely wholeheartedly disagree with this to the fullest extent possible. Yzerman wouldn't have done 1/10th of the stupid ass contracts NMC/NTC and ridiculous TERM Holland handed out to mediocre,average and below average NHLers Kenny gave like CANDY BARS!

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

While there are valid points here, you really aren't painting an accurate picture of Holland's tenure in Detroit. I think I said this you in a different thread a few weeks back, but Holland did a spectacular job between 1998 and 2012, which included a re-build on the fly between 2002 and 2008. He did a bad job between 2013 and 2016 (tried to do a second re-build on the fly and it bombed). Then from 2017 to present date, he's done well with the re-build and is going in the right direction.

I don't understand why you seem to fixate on a 4 year window within a 21 year career. No doubt that window was a colossal failure, looking back on it, Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan and co. were not good enough to keep this team as contenders post Lidstrom, and his trying to do so left us as mediocre and in no man's land.

When the streak ended, so did Holland's strategy as most of his moves post streak have been all about the re-build. Obviously Holland doesn't believe in utter tanking Edmonton style, I wont argue that he wants to torch it to the ground, he doesnt. But he has shown with the trades of Smith, Vanek, Ott, Sheahan, Sproul, Wilson, Mrazek, Tatar, Jensen and Nyquist, that he is now doing what everybody criticized him for years ago, yet for some reason a segment (you included) just fixate on those 4 years.

The way you speak about Holland, you would think we are talking about Matt Millen.

I am good with moving on from Holland if the GM taking over is a better fit, and if Yzerman is that person, I would be ecstatic. But this false narrative that Holland is a garbage GM because of those 4 bad years is just getting old and tiring to read as it just seems to take over every single thread.

You need to move on.

It has been more than 4 years. And he is terrible overvaluing his own players and managing the cap. You can not say with a straight face he didn't put us in a dark hole with these horrible contracts. We have the second worst record in the NHL and are one of the highest cap. And are one of the oldest teams on average.

 

[Run the Jewels]

While there are valid points here, you really aren't painting an accurate picture of Holland's tenure in Detroit. I think I said this you in a different thread a few weeks back, but Holland did a spectacular job between 1998 and 2012, which included a re-build on the fly between 2002 and 2008. He did a bad job between 2013 and 2016 (tried to do a second re-build on the fly and it bombed). Then from 2017 to present date, he's done well with the re-build and is going in the right direction.

I don't understand why you seem to fixate on a 4 year window within a 21 year career. No doubt that window was a colossal failure, looking back on it, Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan and co. were not good enough to keep this team as contenders post Lidstrom, and his trying to do so left us as mediocre and in no man's land.

When the streak ended, so did Holland's strategy as most of his moves post streak have been all about the re-build. Obviously Holland doesn't believe in utter tanking Edmonton style, I wont argue that he wants to torch it to the ground, he doesnt. But he has shown with the trades of Smith, Vanek, Ott, Sheahan, Sproul, Wilson, Mrazek, Tatar, Jensen and Nyquist, that he is now doing what everybody criticized him for years ago, yet for some reason a segment (you included) just fixate on those 4 years.

The way you speak about Holland, you would think we are talking about Matt Millen.

I am good with moving on from Holland if the GM taking over is a better fit, and if Yzerman is that person, I would be ecstatic. But this false narrative that Holland is a garbage GM because of those 4 bad years is just getting old and tiring to read as it just seems to take over every single thread.

You need to move on.

Nah, I really don't need to move on; Holland does!

There is no doubt that Ken Holland is a Hall of Famer. I've said this plenty and I always supported and defended him from my start here up until the 2012-13 season. He had a great run. However it is very easy for me to move on when it became clear he was no longer capable of running a club in the current iteration of the NHL. He values things that have been proven wrong across the league. I don't feel like going into this any further, we can agree to disagree, yadda...

I am looking forward to two things: 1. the day Ken Holland is officially no longer GM of the Detroit Red Wings and 2. His HHoF speech. The 90s and 00s were great times. It's time to move on so the 20s can be awesome.

 

[kliq]

It has been more than 4 years. And he is terrible overvaluing his own players and managing the cap. You can not say with a straight face he didn't put us in a dark hole with these horrible contracts. We have the second worst record in the NHL and are one of the highest cap. And are one of the oldest teams on average.

Agreed, the contracts are bad. I am not praising anything he did between 2013 and 2017.

 

[kliq]

Nah, I really don't need to move on; Holland does!

There is no doubt that Ken Holland is a Hall of Famer. I've said this plenty and I always supported and defended him from my start here up until the 2012-13 season. He had a great run. However it is very easy for me to move on when it became clear he was no longer capable of running a club in the current iteration of the NHL. He values things that have been proven wrong across the league. I don't feel like going into this any further, we can agree to disagree, yadda...

I am looking forward to two things: 1. the day Ken Holland is officially no longer GM of the Detroit Red Wings and 2. His HHoF speech. The 90s and 00s were great times. It's time to move on so the 20s can be awesome.

I can't argue this. While we disagree with a lot lol, I think we both agree that in a year from now (or whatever it is) it would be nice to see Holland in a different role, and Yzerman as GM.

You have to think Jim Devellano will be stepping down sooner then later, guy is 76. That seems to me to be the perfect role for Holland.

 

[Henkka]

The way you speak about Holland, you would think we are talking about Matt Millen.

I am good with moving on from Holland if the GM taking over is a better fit, and if Yzerman is that person, I would be ecstatic. But this false narrative that Holland is a garbage GM because of those 4 bad years is just getting old and tiring to read as it just seems to take over every single thread.

You need to move on.

Great post.

Also one funny thing is how Yzerman took the charge at Tampa. He started signing veterans around kids. It's the 100% same model that Holland has run and how Nill has operated at Dallas.

People will believe that Yzerman would do something in a different way. He won't. He will proably hire different people and has different kind of connections, but in big picture, his actions doesn't really differ.

Because it's the same GM book.

 

[A II R]

Ummm what????!Absolutely wholeheartedly disagree with this to the fullest extent possible. Yzerman wouldn't have done 1/10th of the stupid ass contracts NMC/NTC and ridiculous TERM Holland handed out to mediocre,average and below average NHLers Kenny gave like CANDY BARS!

Not just that, Holland is seemingly terrified of making any hockey trades of significance. Yzerman mades tons of trades trying to improve his team. Holland shows absolutely ZERO creativity. So yeah, he's been hitting a few of the right notes in this rebuild, but selling off UFAs (and Tatar) at the deadline is really the bare minimum of what a rebuilding GM should be doing.

 

[A II R]

Great post.

Also one funny thing is how Yzerman took the charge at Tampa. He started signing veterans around kids. It's the 100% same model that Holland has run and how Nill has operated at Dallas.

People will believe that Yzerman would do something in a different way. He won't. He will proably hire different people and has different kind of connections, but in big picture, his actions doesn't really differ.

Because it's the same GM book.

Yes, I hope our kids are learning a lot from guys like Abby, Ericsson, Helm, etc - mainly, how to get contracts way above your worth/value and coast in the boys' club.

 

[PullHard]

Callahan / St Louis
Sergachev / Drouin
McDonagh + Miller

All of these trades are extremely unlike Holland

There are plenty of moves that you can say are similar, sure, not going to argue that fact. But look at all of Yzerman's trades... these 3 and a few other smaller scale ones definitely do NOT look like anything resembling something Holland would ever do/ has ever done

 

[kliq]

Callahan / St Louis
Sergachev / Drouin
McDonagh + Miller

All of these trades are extremely unlike Holland

There are plenty of moves that you can say are similar, sure, not going to argue that fact. But look at all of Yzerman's trades... these 3 and a few other smaller scale ones definitely do NOT look like anything resembling something Holland would ever do/ has ever done

Ok, this is a bit misleading.

Callahan / St Louis - Was not a "hockey trade" its a trade that was forced on Yzerman because he damaged his relationship with St. Louis. Not sayings it's Yzerman's fault, but it is what it is. TBH, not a great trade for TB as they are stuck with Callahan's contract.

Sergachev / Drouin - Great trade on many levels, I give Yzerman an A here, agreed this is not a Holland like trade.

McDonagh + Miller - This is textbook Holland, a contender loading up for a cup run. Holland has done this many times, Schneider, Stuart just to name a couple.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Ok, this is a bit misleading.

Callahan / St Louis - Was not a "hockey trade" its a trade that was forced on Yzerman because he damaged his relationship with St. Louis. Not sayings it's Yzerman's fault, but it is what it is. TBH, not a great trade for TB as they are stuck with Callahan's contract.

Sergachev / Drouin - Great trade on many levels, I give Yzerman an A here, agreed this is not a Holland like trade.

McDonagh + Miller - This is textbook Holland, a contender loading up for a cup run. Holland has done this many times, Schneider, Stuart just to name a couple.

They extended him to that and gave him a full NMC... Something I am told he would never do. Oh all gms hand those out the Lightning have 10 of them.

We will see, Yzerman will inherit a team that aren't really his guys, that usually fosters movement. For instance if Holland wound up in another situation, lets say Vancouver after this or something like that, he might be more willing to move certain guys. I do believe that part helps in terms of aggression, Nill and Yzerman both shed lots of players in their new gigs, Holland as Co-GM was a driving force behind some of our contender moves and then as a GM as well. It is all positioning, we aren't really in that position, we could be though shortly and it might be nice having a guy calling the shots not having too much faith in some of these guys.

I don't think they are very different though philosophically. Whenever Yzerman talks down here to the press he sounds a ton like Holland. He operates that way and has mimicked a ton of what the Wings do down in Tampa. I think they can work well together but I am interested to see what Yzerman does here soon. He does a lot of the GM hockey speak that seems to bother this board a ton though in terms of an advance warning...

 

[kliq]

They extended him to that and gave him a full NMC... Something I am told he would never do. Oh all gms hand those out the Lightning have 10 of them.

We will see, Yzerman will inherit a team that aren't really his guys, that usually fosters movement. For instance if Holland wound up in another situation, lets say Vancouver after this or something like that, he might be more willing to move certain guys. I do believe that part helps in terms of aggression, Nill and Yzerman both shed lots of players in their new gigs, Holland as Co-GM was a driving force behind some of our contender moves and then as a GM as well. It is all positioning, we aren't really in that position, we could be though shortly and it might be nice having a guy calling the shots not having too much faith in some of these guys.

I don't think they are very different though philosophically. Whenever Yzerman talks down here to the press he sounds a ton like Holland. He operates that way and has mimicked a ton of what the Wings do down in Tampa. I think they can work well together but I am interested to see what Yzerman does here soon. He does a lot of the GM hockey speak that seems to bother this board a ton though in terms of an advance warning...

That's right, I completely forgot about that. I agree with this overall sentiment, Yzerman does operate a lot like Holland.

 

[Hen Kolland]

He does a lot of the GM hockey speak that seems to bother this board a ton though in terms of an advance warning...

This is something that will entertaining to watch develop. We all know that the casual fan will latch on to Yzerman and he will be infallible. I’ll be interested to see how this board reacts when he comes in and moves the first fan favorite talent. Or when he goes off the board in a draft. Or he gives out a UFA contract with a NMC. How much benefit of the doubt does he get being the savior x2

 

[A II R]

Some of these argument are ridiculous:

- Because KH was once great, we can't now call him bad just because he had a horrible four year stretch that's plunged us to the bottom of the league, all while having the highest payroll (and a bunch of unmovable anchor contracts).

-Because Stevie Y came up under KH, it just be business as usual if we hire him - they are basically the same GM.

- Stevie Y hands out tons of NTC too (actually, only Stammer and Girardi have full NTCs that run the length of the contract. Most of their NTCs are 10 or 15, or 20 team lists)

We will see, Yzerman will inherit a team that aren't really his guys, that usually fosters movement. For instance if Holland wound up in another situation, lets say Vancouver after this or something like that, he might be more willing to move certain guys. I do believe that part helps in terms of aggression, Nill and Yzerman both shed lots of players in their new gigs, Holland as Co-GM was a driving force behind some of our contender moves and then as a GM as well. It is all positioning, we aren't really in that position, we could be though shortly and it might be nice having a guy calling the shots not having too much faith in some of these guys.

And yes, this is the exact point of why we need someone new. Stevie may have a similar philosophy to KH, but Stevie's been a million times better at implementing said philosophy over the past six or seven years. We need someone that will come in and shake things up, be willing to move on from guys that don't fit their plan, make some hockey deals, and get this thing going. KH has not shown he's willing to do that.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Callahan / St Louis
Sergachev / Drouin
McDonagh + Miller

All of these trades are extremely unlike Holland

There are plenty of moves that you can say are similar, sure, not going to argue that fact. But look at all of Yzerman's trades... these 3 and a few other smaller scale ones definitely do NOT look like anything resembling something Holland would ever do/ has ever done

The Bishop trade was very good too

 

[kliq]

Some of these argument are ridiculous:

- Because KH was once great, we can't now call him bad just because he had a horrible four year stretch that's plunged us to the bottom of the league, all while having the highest payroll (and a bunch of unmovable anchor contracts).

-Because Stevie Y came up under KH, it just be business as usual if we hire him - they are basically the same GM.

- Stevie Y hands out tons of NTC too (actually, only Stammer and Girardi have full NTCs that run the length of the contract. Most of their NTCs are 10 or 15, or 20 team lists)



And yes, this is the exact point of why we need someone new. Stevie may have a similar philosophy to KH, but Stevie's been a million times better at implementing said philosophy over the past six or seven years. We need someone that will come in and shake things up, be willing to move on from guys that don't fit their plan, make some hockey deals, and get this thing going. KH has not shown he's willing to do that.

To be clear as you are obviously referring to me in the bold, my point is that the notion that one's career is defined from a 4 year stretch that came after a 14 year stretch of excellence is ridiculous. I AM NOT defending that 4 year stretch, and if the behavior from that 4 year stretch kept going, then it would make sense to keep criticizing him for it, however like I said and defined above, since the trade deadline in 2017 he has changed his approach but unfortunately some are still so butt-hurt from that 4 year stretch all logic just seems to go out the window.

To your second point, nobody said they are same GM, you're making a strawman argument. What people are saying is that Yzerman's style is similar to KH, which it is. I don't think anyone argued that Holland is a better GM then Yzerman in 2019. I do hope they switch, but this false narrative that Yzerman is going to come in and be a 180 in his approach is likely wrong. Even this idea that he will move anyone that Holland won't...also likely wrong. Holland has shown he's willing to move players, and the one's the I'm guessing you want gone (ie. Abby, Helm) aren't going anywhere with those contracts regardless of who the GM is.

To your third point, I'm guessing you never looked into the Wings NTC/NMC's, as what you said about TB's clauses are pretty much the same as the clauses the Wings handed out. You seem to have accidentally just countered your own second point.

Nielsen - has a 10 team no trade list
Abby - Can we traded to anyone if hes out of the top 9 after next year
Helm - clause can be voided as of June this year
Vanek - same as Girardi's
Green - has a 10 team no trade list just before the deadline next year
Kronwall - has a 10 team no trade list
E - "has a 19 team no trade list"
Daley - "has a 15 team no trade list"

Now for the record, I'm not defending these clauses, I never said I liked them. So please don't rant about how these clauses are awful, if you do you completely missed the point. The point I am making is you mocked the notion that the NTC/NMC's that Yzerman gave out were different then the one's KH gave out, which is simply untrue.

As far as the last bold, I'll give you this point. Granted he started with a franchise 1C and 1D which is a huge advantage, but I wont take away from the masterful moves he made after that point. This is why I would like to see Yzerman take over from Holland, but lets not pretend that we are going from Matt Millen to Bill Belichick here.

 

[kliq]

The Bishop trade was very good too

I wasnt so much impressed with the trade itsself, but rather the balls to go with Vasilevskiy as the starter on a contender. So far it looks like an amazing move.