Vegas Expansion Thread - How did Jarmo do?

[EspenK]

I still think his only screwup was not buying Hartnell out before the draft. If I was voting toda I'd probably say F because of it.

I do agree it is interesting how split the opinions are. Reminds me of something else.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

This is what I love about this forum. 21 people voted A or B. 20 people voted C, D or F. Healthy discussion around facts which are not really in dispute, and half the community is basically okay with the body of work, and half the community came away and felt the result was lacking.

The next time someone claims there any sort of board consensus or hive mind or that there's some sort of pushed narrative or that "you guys said," I'm going to show them this thread.

 

[CBJx614]

67 goals and 67 assists over the past 2 years. Great PKer and obviously unselfish as a person as he probably took $1.0-$1.5 million under market (would have been UFA for 2020-21).

Grade change from my previous D. This didn't improve my grade

He was able to take a pay cut because of the tax rates not because he's unselfish. I'm not saying he's selfish, just that he didn't do it to help the team.

Not to mention he has a 10 team NTC

 

[Cyclones Rock]

He was able to take a pay cut because of the tax rates not because he's unselfish. I'm not saying he's selfish, just that he didn't do it to help the team.

Not to mention he has a 10 team NTC

The tax rate differential would account for 5-6% of salary or roughly $300,000 per year. If he wanted to play "gimme gimme gimme" like the majority of 20 something multi millionaires do (see Panarin, Bob and Duchene), he could have played the Kevin Hayes card. And won.

I stick with my analysis. He's very unselfish.

 

[CBJx614]

The tax rate differential would account for 5-6% of salary or roughly $300,000 per year. If he wanted to play "gimme gimme gimme" like the majority of 20 something multi millionaires do (see Panarin, Bob and Duchene), he could have played the Kevin Hayes card. And won.

I stick with my analysis. He's very unselfish.

How, he's nowhere near comparable to any of the Jackets players..

He's had 2 good seasons in the NHL, the rest were meh.. That doesn't leave him much room to negotiate..

Over his contract, that 300,000/yr turns into 2.4M that he would have paid elsewhere.

 

[JacketsDavid]

He's had 2 good seasons in the NHL, the rest were meh.. That doesn't leave him much room to negotiate..

There for a while I thought we were talking about the Jackets franchise with 2 good seasons and then meh...

 

[DarkandStormy]

This goes down, in my book (no one cares, I know), as the 2nd-worst Jarmo trade. The Duclair + two 2nds for Dzingel has since surpassed it.

Wasting a protection spot on ****ing Scott Hartnell who they bought out a week later is mind-boggling stupid. "Yeah, but DaS, they agreed to the trade in March." If the front office doesn't know in March they're buying a player out in June, what the hell are they doing in hockey management in any role? Hartnell's play in March & April didn't drive home the decision to buy him out. Piss poor planning/management there.

I'm not *as* upset about the 1st for taking on Clarkson. It's still a self-inflicted wound, though. There's no need to take on Clarkson if you either a) bought the insurance on Horton or b) didn't give a 7-year contract to a guy with an injury history. Either way, this is more of a wash than anything. I assume it was to save money because Clarkson has been LTIR eligible for awhile now.

To those saying, "Jarmo said he'd take Texier at #24." Yeah, no sh**. Of course he's going to pump his own tires and make his scouts seem like they got a steal. Do you think he's going to say, "Actually, we had him rated as the 38th best prospect..." The fact that so many people take a GM's words at face value as the truth is weird. It's very easy to believe Jarmo is simply lying about where they rated Texier.

To boot, the same season in which they "steered" Vegas away from Jack Johnson, they ended up healthy scratching him in the playoffs. They also let Calvert walk, another guy who they didn't want Vegas to take. What an absolute joke of asset management. It'd be the worst trade of the Vegas Draft if not for the debacle Florida pulled.

So if they bought out Hartnell pre-draft window, protected Anderson instead, and just dealt with paying Clarkson for the LTIR relief, Vegas picks...? Maybe they still take Karlsson (and his explosion post-CBJ is a major indictment against the coaching abilities of Torts). Maybe they select Jack Johnson, which would have been no big deal given how bad he was. CBJ would have kept those picks and been able to either select players or make different trades or whatever.

 

[EspenK]

T
Wasting a protection spot on ****ing Scott Hartnell who they bought out a week later is mind-boggling stupid. "Yeah, but DaS, they agreed to the trade in March." If the front office doesn't know in March they're buying a player out in June, what the hell are they doing in hockey management in any role? Hartnell's play in March & April didn't drive home the decision to buy him out. Piss poor planning/management there.

100% agree.

 

[majormajor]

Do you really think Jarmo is that dumb, that he'd plan on spending a protection spot on a player that was a potential buyout? It's obvious that the terms of the March deal with McPhee were contingent on certain players being available, i.e. Karlsson. Look at the protection lists for other teams that had deals in place with Vegas, there were some choices made that only make sense if they already made a deal with Vegas on who they would take.

To those saying, "Jarmo said he'd take Texier at #24." Yeah, no sh**. Of course he's going to pump his own tires and make his scouts seem like they got a steal. Do you think he's going to say, "Actually, we had him rated as the 38th best prospect..." The fact that so many people take a GM's words at face value as the truth is weird. It's very easy to believe Jarmo is simply lying about where they rated Texier.

It's normal for draft lists to vary that much. It would be unusual for any GM to take a player at #45 that they had rated #38. Most teams would see their #38 on the board in the third round. And it's normal for Jarmo's draft lists to vary even more. Foudy last year might have slipped into the second round, on the consensus / averaged lists he was a second round pick. Judging by how well Texier is developing I find it very easy to believe he was their top target at #24.

To boot, the same season in which they "steered" Vegas away from Jack Johnson, they ended up healthy scratching him in the playoffs. They also let Calvert walk, another guy who they didn't want Vegas to take. What an absolute joke of asset management. It'd be the worst trade of the Vegas Draft if not for the debacle Florida pulled.

So if they bought out Hartnell pre-draft window, protected Anderson instead, and just dealt with paying Clarkson for the LTIR relief, Vegas picks...? Maybe they still take Karlsson (and his explosion post-CBJ is a major indictment against the coaching abilities of Torts). Maybe they select Jack Johnson, which would have been no big deal given how bad he was. CBJ would have kept those picks and been able to either select players or make different trades or whatever.

This is the reason I didn't like the deal. Josh was the only player that obviously had to be kept. Based on the information we had at the time, between Karlsson, Calvert, Johnson, and Korpisalo, we didn't know who would have been more important. So it would have been better to protect Josh, keep the second rounder, and let Vegas have it's pick of the four. That only cost us a 2nd rounder though, so I don't feel like agonizing over it.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

This goes down, in my book (no one cares, I know), as the 2nd-worst Jarmo trade. The Duclair + two 2nds for Dzingel has since surpassed it.

Wasting a protection spot on ****ing Scott Hartnell who they bought out a week later is mind-boggling stupid. "Yeah, but DaS, they agreed to the trade in March." If the front office doesn't know in March they're buying a player out in June, what the hell are they doing in hockey management in any role? Hartnell's play in March & April didn't drive home the decision to buy him out. Piss poor planning/management there.

That's a powerful framing of a piss poor decision.

The handling of the entire expansion process was abysmal as you've very aptly described.

 

[Monk]

Do you really think Jarmo is that dumb

I think I know what some folks here will say

 

[Long Live Lyle]

Was Calvert part of that “protection” group? I always thought it was just Anderson, Johnson and Korpi, and then Vegas chose Karlsson over Calvert due to age/contract status (Calvert was a UFA at the end of the next season).

 

[DarkandStormy]

Do you really think Jarmo is that dumb, that he'd plan on spending a protection spot on a player that was a potential buyout? It's obvious that the terms of the March deal with McPhee were contingent on certain players being available, i.e. Karlsson. Look at the protection lists for other teams that had deals in place with Vegas, there were some choices made that only make sense if they already made a deal with Vegas on who they would take.

"Here's a 2nd to take X player and not A, B, and C" - if you have one fewer player you want them to avoid, then maybe that 2nd drops back to a 3rd or 4th. This is to say nothing of the coaching staff/FO completely missing what they had in Karlsson in the first place.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Was Calvert part of that “protection” group? I always thought it was just Anderson, Johnson and Korpi, and then Vegas chose Karlsson over Calvert due to age/contract status (Calvert was a UFA at the end of the next season).

I remember his name being thrown in there, but yeah, he might not have been eligible now that you mention it.

 

[majormajor]

"Here's a 2nd to take X player and not A, B, and C" - if you have one fewer player you want them to avoid, then maybe that 2nd drops back to a 3rd or 4th.

Vegas knew beforehand that we had the option of buying out Hartnell and protecting Anderson, so that was already factored in to the price. We had a lot of discussions about buying out Hartnell. Like a lot of clubs, Columbus could have moved bodies around and pushed some of their veterans to waive NMC's, or bought them out. A small part of what paying that 2nd rounder gave us was the ability to avoid having those conversations with our NMC guys. If we didn't have any way of protecting Anderson I don't think they'd have made the deal for just a 2nd rounder.

 

[Nanabijou]

I really would like to see reporting on the details of how the deal was struck. Was the agreement that Vegas would take Wild Bill back in March? Yes, he blew up, but most of us at the time (including me) thought that was a pretty good deal to steer Vegas to him. It hurts in hindsight, but I don't think even Vegas knew what they were getting.

Regardless, it's now more important that Jarmo learns from that experience and plans better for the Seattle draft. I think Seattle is going to have a harder time than Vegas because teams will know better what to expect and plan for.

The key is to not give out any NMC/NTC's unless the player is a bonafide franchise cornerstone. On the plus side, the clauses with the Dubi and Foligno contracts won't be an issue with Seattle not entering until 2021. Right now, only Cam and Seth will have NTC's that season, which is fine.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I really would like to see reporting on the details of how the deal was struck. Was the agreement that Vegas would take Wild Bill back in March? Yes, he blew up, but most of us at the time (including me) thought that was a pretty good deal to steer Vegas to him. It hurts in hindsight, but I don't think even Vegas knew what they were getting.

This is what I’m thinking:

Jarmo trades for Panarin and he’s just a boob who lucked into the deal.

Vegas acquires Karlsson because Jarmo is just a boob who can’t evaluate talent.

 

[thebus88]

Just to add/sum up my feelings on this.

- Due to the teams depth, we were always going lose somebody "good". Do people really think it was EVER a possibility that Vegas would've selected Johnson or Calvert? Come on.

- This is "IMO", but, I also believe Korpisalo was the main guy the team wanted to protect/keep. Selecting Karlsson over Anderson may have added to what we gave them a bit (its hard for me to look at the Clarkson situation as "separate") but I do not think Karlsson was seen as much lesser in value than Anderson, to either McPhee or Jarmo. And to add, Vegas never HAD to make the trade. I just don't like narrative that Karlsson was just seen as the "left overs" and Vegas was fine with taking him and Jarmo supposedly never knew what he had.

 

[The Jones Zone]

Karma comes back to haunt the Golden Knights!

 

[Nanabijou]

This is what I’m thinking:

Jarmo trades for Panarin and he’s just a boob who lucked into the deal.

Vegas acquires Karlsson because Jarmo is just a boob who can’t evaluate talent.

Don't forget that Jarmo signs Jones to a good deal and he's just a boob who got lucky that Poile taught Jones the Nashville way.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Don't forget that Jarmo signs Jones to a good deal and he's just a boob who got lucky that Poile taught Jones the Nashville way.

Discount that if you like. Pretend that Jones's Nashville experience had no impact on his decision to sign for what he did.

 

[CBJx614]

J

Discount that if you like. Pretend that Jones's Nashville experience had no impact on his decision to sign for what he did.

Jones signed for what he did because he was stuck on the 3rd pairing and had nothing to prove he was worth more than what he got paid.

 

[JohnnyJacket13]

Discount that if you like. Pretend that Jones's Nashville experience had no impact on his decision to sign for what he did.

J

Jones signed for what he did because he was stuck on the 3rd pairing and had nothing to prove he was worth more than what he got paid.

This whole notion that Jones signed for what he did because of Poile/Nashville is silly. Just check out comparable contracts that were signed at the time and his fits right in line with what other good/great defensemen were signing for. At the time, he was paid for his potential. Now he's on a steal of a contract because of cap inflation.

Seth Jones Comparables Results - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

[Cyclones Rock]

J

Jones signed for what he did because he was stuck on the 3rd pairing and had nothing to prove he was worth more than what he got paid.

Jones signed his five year deal when he was with the CBJ.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

This whole notion that Jones signed for what he did because of Poile/Nashville is silly. Just check out comparable contracts that were signed at the time and his fits right in line with what other good/great defensemen were signing for. At the time, he was paid for his potential. Now he's on a steal of a contract because of cap inflation.

Seth Jones Comparables Results - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

It does look like the comps for the time period signed were similar. He did come from a culture in Nashville where RFA signings were cordial and team friendly deals for the most part. I'd think that impacted his approach to his extension.

Jarmo's negotiations with RFAs tend toward being a bit disagreeable one must admit.