Vegas Expansion Thread - How did Jarmo do?

[majormajor]

Ok, that clarified a bit, thanks. I remember that happening (it was Wennberg).

Yes it was. To limbo under that once a season bar you need a waiver exempt player or two that carries a lot of cap hit. And the cap hit of course has to shrink when a player gets demoted - I don't know why some players cap hits drop more than others.

I don't think Vegas has enough waiver exempt cap hit to pull it off. They are an old team compared to the Jackets of then (and now).

 

[JacketsDavid]

I gave him a D. He signed a guy (Horton) without proper insurance. THen had to trade him for the worst contract in the NHL (Clarkson) because for that amount of money he needed to get 8 minutes of ice time/night and 8 goals/year. Then he got hurt...

So he has to turn around and dump his contract to the expansion team.

Finally great job on evaluating Anderson. Terrible job on evaluation Bill.

 

[Viqsi]

I gave him a D. He signed a guy (Horton) without proper insurance.

The Nathan Horton situation is independent of the expansion draft.

 

[JacketsDavid]

The Nathan Horton situation is independent of the expansion draft.

That's not true. If he properly insure Horton he wouldn't have had to give up a 1st to dump Clarkson's salary.

But if you want to look at it like that.

He gets a C for not evaluating talent and losing Bill. He did a good job recognizing Anderson's talent is what salvaged it.

Also he passed out way to many NTC and NMC which forced us to keep some veterans.

 

[EspenK]

That's not true. If he properly insure Horton he wouldn't have had to give up a 1st to dump Clarkson's salary.

But if you want to look at it like that.

He gets a C for not evaluating talent and losing Bill. He did a good job recognizing Anderson's talent is what salvaged it.

Also he passed out way to many NTC and NMC which forced us to keep some veterans.

I think you've mixed way to many apples and oranges. Why not add in that he shouldn't have traded for Karlsson in the first place?

 

[Viqsi]

That's not true. If he properly insure Horton he wouldn't have had to give up a 1st to dump Clarkson's salary.

The problem with this is is that if you're going to blame him for the bad moves that led up to the expansion draft being more difficult, you also have to praise him for all of the good moves in the past that made the expansion draft easier to handle (such as, say, having traded for Karlsson in the first place so that there would be a player Vegas would be willing to take instead of Anderson). And you very rapidly start to run into a "where does one draw the line" situation as you go back further into the past.

If you've got something in the past that was done as a direct result of the expansion draft requirements, that might be admissible - one example that comes to mind is how he timed the Werenski signing so that Werenski didn't have to be protected. But otherwise it's kind of a stretch.

 

[blahblah]

Remembering back, WB was the one player everybody agreed we would rather lose.

Clearly I was NOT everyone. We've (me and some colorful members of our board) had the discussion before. The thread shows me stating that it would be a mistake. No, I didn't predict what he ended up doing. The attack from "everyone" was who else would have you not protected. I had very non-mainstream ideas on what to do. I actually wanted us to ask Foligno to waive his clause, among some other ideas. I was open to making a trade or two to be able to protect him.

Later.

 

[KJ Dangler]

I give Jarmo a B, hes not totally fautless, but the William Karlsson Fiasco lies mostly with the coaching staff, who worked with him daily, but didnt try to utilize his skill set correctly. Since then, we have seen the same thing from Milano, Bjorkstrand, Dzingel, Duclair, and Wennberg. Its taken Bjorkstrand nearly 1.5 years to remotely look like the player we all thought he would be . Milano was 2nd in the nhl in points per minutes played his rookie season, potted 14g in about 10 min of ice time, in 55 games. What can you say about Wennberg, he will never be the type of player that I'm in love with , but to say he has regressed severly under torts, is an understatement. Some here thought he could be a #1 c, now at this point, now, he could easily be bought out. These are young players that need developed. Torts had to bring in a retired player to try to rescue the powerplay, after being dismal for 2 years in a row. Hes admitted he doesnt understand offense, and needs to remember that when he coaches. He also needs a new assistant on his staff that can rectify this issue.

 

[Long Live Lyle]

The problem with this is is that if you're going to blame him for the bad moves that led up to the expansion draft being more difficult, you also have to praise him for all of the good moves in the past that made the expansion draft easier to handle (such as, say, having traded for Karlsson in the first place so that there would be a player Vegas would be willing to take instead of Anderson). And you very rapidly start to run into a "where does one draw the line" situation as you go back further into the past.

If you've got something in the past that was done as a direct result of the expansion draft requirements, that might be admissible - one example that comes to mind is how he timed the Werenski signing so that Werenski didn't have to be protected. But otherwise it's kind of a stretch.

Agree. It’s basically double jeopardy (and doesn’t factor in positive moves to get there in the first place). I still rate the expansion draft a D, but that’s independent of how we got to that point.

Not to mention, insuring Horton would’ve made zero difference, because we would’ve been in the exact same situation cap-wise as we were with Clarkson. (The only thing that would’ve made a difference would have been not signing Horton in the first place.) Both make the same money and both have deals that end after this upcoming season. The reason we made the trade was because at the time, if we were going to spend $5M, we at least wanted a guy who would be in the lineup (even if only as a 4th liner). Toronto, meanwhile, didn’t care about paying a guy $5M to not play if it brought them $5M in cap relief. But had Toronto known Clarkson also was going to go on LTIR himself, they would not have made the deal.

Speaking of... I’m a little surprised we haven’t heard Horton’s name at all in trade rumors. I don’t think we’d do it, but I feel it could be good for a team like NYR or Chicago. He will “only” make $3.6M this year.

 

[CharlotteJacket]

Clearly I was NOT everyone. We've (me and some colorful members of our board) had the discussion before. The thread shows me stating that it would be a mistake. No, I didn't predict what he ended up doing. The attack from "everyone" was who else would have you not protected. I had very non-mainstream ideas on what to do. I actually wanted us to ask Foligno to waive his clause, among some other ideas. I was open to making a trade or two to be able to protect him.

Later.

Well, you're Mr. Clairvoyant.

 

[mikeyp24]

Man got to love literally the 50 psychics in here that all saw Karlson being a 50 goal scorer. #1 Before the playoffs the year before he left he went about half the season without scoring. It wasnt Jarmo's fault, wasnt Torts fault, that was Karlson just not being able to score. Sometimes players just fit amazing with some teammates and dont with others. Bill found a system and line he worked well with and killed it. Look what he did THIS year. His numbers dropped dramatically. And the numbers he hit this year were with him playing some of the most minutes for any 1C inthe league and heavy PP1 minutes. Basically showed his numbers were kinda a fluke and NEVER gets that success here because he wouldnt play above PLD or Duchene. #2 Whoever said protect him over Wennberg is a joke. Wennberg was coming off a big season and Wennberg actually has the talent to be a #1 somewhere he just needs a different system/line that supports his pass first play style. No gm holds bill over Wenny there. #3 saying ask Foligno to waive is rediculous people need to study team sports more Folignos presence on this team is impossible to measure just how priceless and valuable he is to our teams chemistry, confidence, and ability to win. Seriously look at how much we lose without his leadership. This year especially when he was gone our team was getting destroyed and him coming back sparked 9ur team to the win streak that lead us into the playoffs. His line was consistently the line sparking the offense and comebacks. Dubi and Jenner are very similar. #4 JJ at that time was one of our only consistent D we had had over the years and we didnt have the depth we do now. #5 Anderson is still 10x the player Bill is and Korpi is now our starter so its obviously great they were kept. #6 JK was a genious and moved Clarkson for a prospect who hasnt done nothing yet. The 1st he moved he ended up getting his guy anyways and he is already better then what we gave up. Depending on what Tex does next year he could be more productive the wild bill was over his whole career.


People That grade it any worse then a B dont have much concept over how well JK actually maneuvered that difficult situation. We were one of the most exposed teams when it came to who we might lose and we only lost a guy who would have never played higher then 3rd line here while being able to dump a huge negative asset. No matter what anyone thinks Bill never hits the numbers he does there here because he never gets that system or marshasult(sp?) Here which is the ONLY reason he hit those numbers. That's a positive for vegas and no matter how much self hate you have not a negative for us.

PS before people want to blame Hortons insurance issue for anything in this deal either that was the owners not wanting to fork out the extra money not JK stop with that horse shit.

 

[JacketsDavid]

The problem with this is is that if you're going to blame him for the bad moves that led up to the expansion draft being more difficult, you also have to praise him for all of the good moves in the past that made the expansion draft easier to handle (such as, say, having traded for Karlsson in the first place so that there would be a player Vegas would be willing to take instead of Anderson). And you very rapidly start to run into a "where does one draw the line" situation as you go back further into the past.

If you've got something in the past that was done as a direct result of the expansion draft requirements, that might be admissible - one example that comes to mind is how he timed the Werenski signing so that Werenski didn't have to be protected. But otherwise it's kind of a stretch.

I see things as pretty black and white, others see it differently.
We had several moving pieces with the expansion draft:
-Several young guys trying to protect, largely because w passed out NTC and NMC like candy on trick or treat. The young talent to protect is great, but all the vets we couldn't expose was done by the GMs.
-We had to dump Clarkson. We couldn't afford him to not play. We had Clarkson because of incompetence by someone (whether it was the GM or some pinny pincher further up) because of Horton. That is 100% on the GM until he comes out someday and says it was a decision made further up the food chain.

Again you can grade that however you choose. To me it's a D.

Jarmo has done many great things as a GM but the numbers tell you his greatest mistake was Horton not being insured.
Admittedly he didn't know as he was passing out NTC/NMC how the expansion draft would work but we had way too many of those that we had to deal with.
Not recognizing the talent in Wild Bill is more of the coaching staff who saw him everyday but still when you give up a young guy who plays a premium position who goes on to score 40 goals it's not going to look good.

I'm done with it, just wanted to point out how I see it. I know others see it other ways. Again Jarmo has done good things here.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I liked Wild Bill here. I thought he was decent to pretty good. I probably agreed he was the one who has to be sacrificed to protect the other players we wanted to keep. Yes I get a pass because I didn’t see him every day and maybe that’s a failure on the coaches.

Or maybe shit just happens. Maybe a player just does something different because of circumstance. Does Tom Brady become the best QB ever if he’s drafted by Jacksonville or Detroit?

And we didn’t give up a 40-goal scorer in expansion. We gave up a 10-goal scorer. That he became one after doesn’t change that. You’re not something until you are. That and he did score 40 goals last season, but that total dropped by 20 in 18/19.

I don’t have any idea what all this means. Just random reactions to stuff in here, most of which has been said before.

 

[Long Live Lyle]

You have to evaluate decisions in hindsight. Otherwise, give him a D for drafting Dubois over Puljujarvi, who was the consensus higher-rated prospect at the time. (Plus, there’s no point in having this thread two years later if we’re not going to evaluate in hindsight. We should’ve just had it for the week after the expansion draft, in that case.)

It doesn’t matter if it’s Torts’s fault or even that conventional wisdom at the time showed Karlsson should go. The fact is we lost a 40-goal scorer AND gave up a 2nd round pick to do so. (And for all the “Karlsson regressed” comments, he still had 56 points in his “down year”. That’s not exactly chopped liver.) That’s a bad deal for Jarmo. Still want him as my GM. Still think he’s done far more good than bad for this franchise. But he took an L in the expansion draft.

 

[EspenK]

You have to evaluate decisions in hindsight. Otherwise, give him a D for drafting Dubois over Puljujarvi, who was the consensus higher-rated prospect at the time. (Plus, there’s no point in having this thread two years later if we’re not going to evaluate in hindsight. We should’ve just had it for the week after the expansion draft, in that case.)

It doesn’t matter if it’s Torts’s fault or even that conventional wisdom at the time showed Karlsson should go. The fact is we lost a 40-goal scorer AND gave up a 2nd round pick to do so. (And for all the “Karlsson regressed” comments, he still had 56 points in his “down year”. That’s not exactly chopped liver.) That’s a bad deal for Jarmo. Still want him as my GM. Still think he’s done far more good than bad for this franchise. But he took an L in the expansion draft.

The fact is we gave up a guy who scored 40 goals playing for Vegas. We did not lose a 40 goal scorer.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

The fact is we gave up a guy who scored 40 goals playing for Vegas. We did not lose a 40 goal scorer.

People are going to argue ‘semantics’ but it’s not and it’s true.

 

[Long Live Lyle]

People are going to argue ‘semantics’ but it’s not and it’s true.

We gave up a guy who has the talent to score 40 goals in the NHL and a second round pick along with it.

Vegas didn’t play OHL competition. Vegas didn’t have 7 players on the ice. That doesn’t mean he would’ve scored 40 here. But I’m really finding it hard to justify losing a guy with the proven ability to score 40 goals in this league AND another asset on top of that.

And I say this as someone who was NOT a big WK fan at the time. I was pretty indifferent toward him.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

We gave up a guy who has the talent to score 40 goals in the NHL and a second round pick along with it.

Vegas didn’t play OHL competition. Vegas didn’t have 7 players on the ice. That doesn’t mean he would’ve scored 40 here. But I’m really finding it hard to justify losing a guy with the proven ability to score 40 goals in this league AND another asset on top of that.

And I say this as someone who was NOT a big WK fan at the time. I was pretty indifferent toward him.

Not trying to "justify" anything. Wild Bill was not a 40-goal scorer when Vegas selected him in the expansion draft. It's stretching it pretty thin to suggest he had "proven ability to score 40 goals in this league."

Remember when the Penguins drafted that cancer-ridden kid in 1984?

 

[majormajor]

We're talking like we gave up a regular 40 goal scorer, not a guy who did it once for an expansion team.

This year, despite heaps of ice team, Karlsson only totaled 24 goals. His goal scoring rate would have put him in our bottom six. The Jackets have a lot of goal scorers. Last year Atkinson, Bjorkstrand, Anderson, Foligno, Panarin, and Dubois all had goal scoring rates of .9 or above in goals per 60 minutes. There's only 80 some players in the league in that group. Karlsson put up a .78 G/60, good for about 120th. Granted, with his two-way ability, Karlsson also might have been our best center. I'm just feeling it odd that we're crediting him as if he's a big scorer.

 

[thebus88]

I mean most of us have gone back and forth about this subject while also tying in other different arguments and separate subjects. MOST people admit that at the time they didn't see Karlsson as a loss.

The team had good depth then and HAD to lose somebody. I'm not sure about the exact situations involving Hartnell and JJ, but the team was going to lose 1 of 3 players. All the talk in here should revolve around these 3 guys and what people's perceptions of them was then and how much it has changed since then.

Karlsson, Wennberg, Anderson.

I'm not sure what exactly I said way back closer to expansion, but I'm not sure Karlsson EVER looked not as good as Wennberg in the past and Anderson now. Everybody (until I see some quotes/posts) dropped the ball on this 1. Torts, Jarmo, and us fans. If the fandom for Karlsson was as loud (literally and figuratively) as it has been for Anderson and Wennberg, there's a good chance Wennberg is playing in LV.

 

[majormajor]

Karlsson, Wennberg, Anderson.

I'm not sure what exactly I said way back closer to expansion, but I'm not sure Karlsson EVER looked not as good as Wennberg in the past and Anderson now. Everybody (until I see some quotes/posts) dropped the ball on this 1. Torts, Jarmo, and us fans. If the fandom for Karlsson was as loud (literally and figuratively) as it has been for Anderson and Wennberg, there's a good chance Wennberg is playing in LV.

This feels like an absurd over complication. I know some like to say that Wennberg got by on reputation, and Karlsson didn't. In which case you could talk about looks and appearances and what we saw as if it mattered. But one of the players was just vastly better at creating goals than the other. Wennberg actually was our top center at the time of the draft. He scored 59 points that year (more than William Karlsson scored this year). We were complaining about Wennberg not scoring goals, and he still had twice Karlsson's number. We didn't give Karlsson as much grief about it because we didn't think he was as capable. "If we only we could have seen.." - This was not a matter of subjective appearance.

 

[blahblah]

Well, you're Mr. Clairvoyant.

Thanks for the garbage comment. It's called scouting, not "clarivoyance". You watch and you judge, I wasn't consulting my magic 8 ball.

For f***s sake, so friggin annoying around here.

 

[MoeBartoli]

Since this thread is designed to be an in hindsight review....that Vegas locked up Wild Bill for 5.9M AAV for 8 years makes their expansion draft move even sweeter.

(And here we are stuck with centers Dubi at $5.8AAV and Wennberg at a "bargain" $4.9M.)

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Since this thread is designed to be an in hindsight review....that Vegas locked up Wild Bill for 5.9M AAV for 8 years makes their expansion draft move even sweeter.

(And here we are stuck with centers Dubi at $5.8AAV and Wennberg at a "bargain" $4.9M.)

67 goals and 67 assists over the past 2 years. Great PKer and obviously unselfish as a person as he probably took $1.0-$1.5 million under market (would have been UFA for 2020-21).

Grade change from my previous D. This didn't improve my grade

 

[Old Guy]

This is what I love about this forum. 21 people voted A or B. 20 people voted C, D or F. Healthy discussion around facts which are not really in dispute, and half the community is basically okay with the body of work, and half the community came away and felt the result was lacking.