Value of: Vatanen to CAR

[newsportsfan123]

That's just not true.

Last season (Rod's first), he had 5 rookies in the opening line-up: Svechnikov, Foegele, Necas, Wallmark, and Zykov. Eventually, Necas showed he wasn't ready and Zykov showed he wasn't good enough. This season, he has Necas in the line-up.

Svechnikov (19), Necas (20), Aho (22), Foegele (23), Wallmark (23), Fleury (23) all are playing significant roles on the Canes right now and guys like Luostarinen (20) got an 8 game stretch earlier in the season. The Canes are one of the youngest teams in the NHL and Rod has not been afraid to play young players in key roles.

The thing Rod demands, is that guys play as hard away from the puck as they do with the puck, which many young guys need to learn and develop, but if they show that (like Foegele did last year), he has no problem playing them.

Kuokkanen is easily expendable in a deal IMO.

Not going to argue with anyone on HFBoards. Kuokkanen is a top prospect within the Canes system. Rees is my favorite prospect, but you’re insane if you include a 1st and Kuokkanen in a deal for Vatanen. Honka is considered a boom/bust pick by many scouts including Finnish scout Jokke Nevalainen, look him up while you’re at it.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

It’s always fantastic when you get to tell someone so convinced that they are right that they are wrong...How about you go look at how many games Sami has played this year. I’ll give you a hint, devils29 had it right the whole time lmfao.

I can see both sides of it as I've argued both sides of it before. For me, scoring "pace" only really matters if a guy is traditionally healthy and plays close to 82 games every year. Krieder is an example where he had 1 year with a serious injury and played 58 games, but other than that, he's played 80, 75, 79, and 53 (out of 54) this year. He's relatively healthy so one should expect his scoring pace to result in points that are close to an 82G pace number.

Vatanen hasn't ever played 82 games so saying he's "on pace" and using 82 games to calculate that pace isn't really meaningful either. 67, 71, 71, 72, 50 are the last 5 full seasons from Vatanen so he's missed a 10+ games every season and he's missed 7 this season so far.

Vatanen has 23 point in 47 games (.489 PPG). If he scores at the exact same pace for the remaining 28 games, he'll score 14 more points and end with 37 points, assuming he doesn't miss any more games.

Teams that trade for him will have to take into account how many games he has missed. Anyone who signs him next year will be signing a guy that they will assume will miss about a 10+ games every year and will give you mid-high 30s in points even with that time missed

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Not going to argue with anyone on HFBoards. Kuokkanen is a top prospect within the Canes system. Rees is my favorite prospect, but you’re insane if you include a 1st and Kuokkanen in a deal for Vatanen. Honka is considered a boom/bust pick by many scouts including Finnish scout Jokke Nevalainen, look him up while you’re at it.

1) That's fine if you like Kuokkanen. I don't claim to be an expert on prospects, but I would have not problem parting with him in the right deal. I could be dead wrong on him. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just stating my opinion on it. I don't expect, or want you to agree with it.

2) I'm on record (earlier in this thread) for saying I would NOT trade a 1st for Vatanen (even without a plus), so not sure why you are responding to me with that comment, so I guess I'm not insane. I only stated that I view Kuokkanen as expendable and did not say I'd give up a 1st.

3) As I've shown though, you are 100% incorrect though in saying he isn't getting a chance "because RBA hates using his young players". That's categorically incorrect.

Kuokkanen missed most of last year with an injury and the Canes told him they wanted him to be more "north / south" in his game and to work on that in Charlotte. It has nothing to do with Rod no playing young players and more to do with having him develop and being NHL ready.

 

[StormCast]

Not going to argue with anyone on HFBoards. Kuokkanen is a top prospect within the Canes system. Rees is my favorite prospect, but you’re insane if you include a 1st and Kuokkanen in a deal for Vatanen. Honka is considered a boom/bust pick by many scouts including Finnish scout Jokke Nevalainen, look him up while you’re at it.

The OP's question was JK + a pick and specifically stated NOT a first. I'd consider it as JK is hardly untouchable. Poltuarski and Saarela also tore it up in the A last year and look where they are now. Agree with the earlier ranking that had him the Canes' Top 10 but not the Top 5 prospects.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Just for reference, Wheeler has him (Kuokkanen) at #8 in the Canes systems in his latest prospect ranking article out today (does not include anyone 24 or over or anyone in the NHL, so guys like Ned, Necas, etc.. don't count).

Suzuki, Bean, Honka, Puistola, Rees, Drury, and Bokk all ahead of him. In fairness, Wheeler seems to favor high "ceiling" over high "floor" guys.

His main assessment of Kuokkanen:

"He doesn't have the skill of most of the other forwards ahead of him on the list, which leads to more of a third-line projection. He's got versatility to his game that will help him adjust to his role, whatever that may be, though."

 

[spockBokk]

The OP's question was JK + a pick and specifically stated NOT a first. I'd consider it as JK is hardly untouchable. Poltuarski and Saarela also tore it up in the A last year and look where they are now. Agree with the earlier ranking that had him the Canes' Top 10 but not the Top 5 prospects.

Exactly, I'd be comfortable ponying up the '20 CAR 2nd + Kuokkanen for Vatanen. If push came to shove, I'd make the 2nd NYR's which would likely be 32-42OA + Kuokkanen, but that'd be my limit, no more.

A 1st from CAR for Vatanen would be a complete non-starter in my view.

 

[GoldiFox]

Kuokkanen is untouchable.. kid is tearing up the AHL, he’s an A prospect. I definitely would not trade him.

There are two players in the entire Canes org I'd list as "untouchable": Svechnikov and Slavin. There is literally no realistic trade in the NHL you would deal Kuokkanen for? Untouchable? I'm not sure Kuokkanen would crack the top-25 of most valuable Canes assets. I'd swap Kuokkanen + 2nd or 3rd for Vatanen in a heartbeat.

 

[newsportsfan123]

1) That's fine if you like Kuokkanen. I don't claim to be an expert on prospects, but I would have not problem parting with him in the right deal. I could be dead wrong on him. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just stating my opinion on it. I don't expect, or want you to agree with it.

2) I'm on record (earlier in this thread) for saying I would NOT trade a 1st for Vatanen (even without a plus), so not sure why you are responding to me with that comment, so I guess I'm not insane. I only stated that I view Kuokkanen as expendable and did not say I'd give up a 1st.

3) As I've shown though, you are 100% incorrect though in saying he isn't getting a chance "because RBA hates using his young players". That's categorically incorrect.

Kuokkanen missed most of last year with an injury and the Canes told him they wanted him to be more "north / south" in his game and to work on that in Charlotte. It has nothing to do with Rod no playing young players and more to do with having him develop and being NHL ready.

Actually RBA has stated that he doesn’t want to call anyone up to help on defense, it’s up to the FO. He doesn’t like using his younger players like Gauthier and Fleury would rather have Gibbons play. I would not trust Wheeler when he is speaking about European players, I’d rather kuch go off of Jokke Nevalainen. Honka is god awful at defense.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Actually RBA has stated that he doesn’t want to call anyone up to help on defense, it’s up to the FO. He doesn’t like using his younger players like Gauthier and Fleury would rather have Gibbons play. I would not trust Wheeler when he is speaking about European players, I’d rather kuch go off of Jokke Nevalainen. Honka is god awful at defense.

You keep stating this, but Svech, Aho, Wallmark, Necas, Foegele, etc.. prove that Rod has no problem playing younger players if he feels they are responsible enough. Gibbons hasn't played on the Canes in ages. Canes are already sitting a legit NHL forward with Williams back so it makes ZERO sense to call up a guy from the AHL to sit 2 guys. They had (until Dougie's injury) 7 NHl defensemen. Fleury and TVR (who is not young) were splitting time.

You are incorrect on the age thing. I get that it helps your narrative on Kuokkanen, but it's not true no matter how many times you say it. Canes would rather have guys like Gauthier and Kuokkanen playing big minutes in all situations in the AHL than limited NHL minutes right now. Makes perfect sense and is the right thing for their development.

Fans always complain that "coaches don't trust young guys" when their favorite prospect doesn't get NHL time. The FACTS are that Rod, in his 1.5 years has played young guys at a high rate in key roles. There's no debating that. As I said, he expects players to work as hard without the puck as they do with the puck and if they can do that, they'll get a shot, regardless of age.

 

[TGWL]

The price for Vatanen should Ben a 1st plus a conditional 3rd if the team resigns him or wins a playoff series. He’s a 40 Point RHD on a decent contract and he has a “career minus” of like 10... so stop trying to use that to lower the price. Anything less i hope the devils just try to re sign. Would rather lose him to UFA than get a 2nd or some useless 7D and a 3rd

You would rather lose him in the summer rather than a potential lower-mid 2nd round pick? Stop.. Just stop.

 

[newsportsfan123]

You keep stating this, but Svech, Aho, Wallmark, Necas, Foegele, etc.. prove that Rod has no problem playing younger players if he feels they are responsible enough. Gibbons hasn't played on the Canes in ages. Canes are already sitting a legit NHL forward with Williams back so it makes ZERO sense to call up a guy from the AHL to sit 2 guys. They had (until Dougie's injury) 7 NHl defensemen. Fleury and TVR (who is not young) were splitting time.

You are incorrect on the age thing. I get that it helps your narrative on Kuokkanen, but it's not true no matter how many times you say it. Canes would rather have guys like Gauthier and Kuokkanen playing big minutes in all situations in the AHL than limited NHL minutes right now. Makes perfect sense and is the right thing for their development.

Fans always complain that "coaches don't trust young guys" when their favorite prospect doesn't get NHL time. The FACTS are that Rod, in his 1.5 years has played young guys at a high rate in key roles. There's no debating that. As I said, he expects players to work as hard without the puck as they do with the puck and if they can do that, they'll get a shot, regardless of age.

RBA has said that himself, he played fleury 10 minutes a night for like 10 games. fleury and gardiner have been the canes best dman.. who knew when you gave your dman more mins they play better?

 

[Nocashstyle]

You would rather lose him in the summer rather than a potential lower-mid 2nd round pick? Stop.. Just stop.

If they don’t trade him, it’s for a reason. Vats seems pretty open to re-signing.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

RBA has said that himself, he played fleury 10 minutes a night for like 10 games. fleury and gardiner have been the canes best dman.. who knew when you gave your dman more mins they play better?

LOL.
1) Fleury has not been the Caens best Dman.
2) Fleury's last 7 games: 15:56, 14:17, 13:58, 14:03, 17:45, 14:31, 15:18
3) Fleury's "age" has nothing to do with his playing time. He's older than Svech, Aho, Necas and the same age as Wallmark, Foegele, and only 1 year younger than Pesce and Teravainen, all of who are "young" players and Rod has no problem playing them a lot of minutes in key roles. He's not playing as much because there's things in his game Rod doesn't like, and age has ZERO to do with it.

Kuokkanen "not being in the NHL" also has nothing to do with age. It has to do with that he missed most of last season due to injury, that he still needs to develop other parts of his game (per the Canes own words), the Canes already having 11 legit NHL forwards, and it's better for his development to play bigger minutes in Charlotte.

I get that you like him as a prospect and by making up that Rod is adverse to playing young guys, it helps put Kuokkanen in a better light vs. just saying he's not ready and not good enough yet, but it's just not correct.

 

[The S5]

RBA has said that himself, he played fleury 10 minutes a night for like 10 games. fleury and gardiner have been the canes best dman.. who knew when you gave your dman more mins they play better?

HUH!!
No, no, no. Gardiner has had one or two good games. Good, not great.
At no time should Gardiner be mentioned in a sentence with Slavin or Pesce.

 

[TGWL]

If they don’t trade him, it’s for a reason. Vats seems pretty open to re-signing.

That wasn't what the poster said though.

 

[spockBokk]

With the Seth Jones injury, I suppose you could add another playoff hopeful to the list of teams looking for top 4 RD. I still don’t see Vatanen returning a 1st (unless he comes with an extension), especially from a team like CAR, but you have to think the ask from the Devils keeps getting higher.

 

[StormCast]

I would not trust Wheeler when he is speaking about European players, I’d rather kuch go off of Jokke Nevalainen. Honka is god awful at defense.

Ok so downgrade Honka, and JK is still in the bottom half of the prospects' Top 10. That's nobody's definition of untouchable especially when you consider that JK showed next to nothing in his short stints in Raleigh.

 

[newsportsfan123]

LOL.
1) Fleury has not been the Caens best Dman.
2) Fleury's last 7 games: 15:56, 14:17, 13:58, 14:03, 17:45, 14:31, 15:18
3) Fleury's "age" has nothing to do with his playing time. He's older than Svech, Aho, Necas and the same age as Wallmark, Foegele, and only 1 year younger than Pesce and Teravainen, all of who are "young" players and Rod has no problem playing them a lot of minutes in key roles. He's not playing as much because there's things in his game Rod doesn't like, and age has ZERO to do with it.

Kuokkanen "not being in the NHL" also has nothing to do with age. It has to do with that he missed most of last season due to injury, that he still needs to develop other parts of his game (per the Canes own words), the Canes already having 11 legit NHL forwards, and it's better for his development to play bigger minutes in Charlotte.

I get that you like him as a prospect and by making up that Rod is adverse to playing young guys, it helps put Kuokkanen in a better light vs. just saying he's not ready and not good enough yet, but it's just not correct.

This is why you’re on HFBoards, Jake Gardiner has 10 points in his last 15 games and Fleury has already outdone his point total from a few seasons ago in about 30 less games. I go to HFBoards for the first time then I see this..

 

[newsportsfan123]

Ok so downgrade Honka, and JK is still in the bottom half of the prospects' Top 10. That's nobody's definition of untouchable especially when you consider that JK showed next to nothing in his short stints in Raleigh.

Kuokkanen isn’t fit for the 4th line role.. Julien Gauthier and Eetu Luostarinen are good players for that role due to the grinding and toughness on their game.

 

[REM17]

What would you say to Buffalo's 3rd and TVR for Vatanen. Vatanen is a career minus player, never having a plus season, and that is a little concerning to me.

Hmm, car salesman?

 

[StormCast]

Kuokkanen isn’t fit for the 4th line role.. Julien Gauthier and Eetu Luostarinen are good players for that role due to the grinding and toughness on their game.

And? Where did I state or imply JK should or would play on the 4th? Oh that's right, I didn't. The simple point is that he is not an untouchable prospect as you keep insisting. Like Saarela he's a guy with a good AHL showing and trade bait given where he is on the prospect depth chart. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[REM17]

He’s still NOT a 40pt D.

Rental D do NOT return 1st round picks unless their name is Erik Karlsson, etc.

Who gives a **** if it’s in division? The Devils are in a position where, in my view, they should be taking the absolute best return they can get.

Hopefully Devils re-sign him. He's the best Devils D.

 

[spockBokk]

Hopefully Devils re-sign him. He's the best Devils D.

Yep, he's certainly a top 4 D. He's probably gonna be looking for $6M+ on his next deal. I'd think NJD would want him signed in the next 2 weeks regardless or at least have a good feeling they can get him signed by 7/1, not sure I've heard anything on extension talks from insidurz.

I still think the most likely outcome is that he's traded to the highest bidder.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

This is why you’re on HFBoards, Jake Gardiner has 10 points in his last 15 games and Fleury has already outdone his point total from a few seasons ago in about 30 less games. I go to HFBoards for the first time then I see this..

And Anttoni Honka leads all defensemen on this team with 16 points so by the logic you apply to Gardiner and Fleury, he must be their "best defensemen", right?

What you should come to HFBoards for is to learn that "points" alone aren't a measure of how good a defenseman is or is not.

And what does Gardiner, who is 29, have to do with "RBA not wanting to play his young guys" (which I've proven false to you and you keep ignoring facts), which is what this discussion is about.

 

[newsportsfan123]

And? Where did I state or imply JK should or would play on the 4th? Oh that's right, I didn't. The simple point is that he is not an untouchable prospect as you keep insisting. Like Saarela he's a guy with a good AHL showing and trade bait given where he is on the prospect depth chart. Is that so hard to understand?

He’s not even comparable to Saarela.. watch his impact in charlotte,