Value of: Vatanen to CAR

[Blackjack]

Vatanen is a decent 2nd pair defenseman. Those rental types return 2nd picks come deadline time. Teams have learned their lesson when it comes to that. Only 1 1st round pick has been traded i. The last 4 years for a rental D. Here’s an article perhaps you should read up on as it contains opinions much more informed than you or me:


Buyer’s guide: What could the trade market for the Devils’ Sami Vatanen look like?
Buyer's guide: What could the trade market for the Devils'...

Cliff Notes-Expect the main piece of a Vatanen trade to begin with a 2nd...

Great. Did you get what you want out of this thread?

 

[spockBokk]

Great. Did you get what you want out of this thread?

yes, yes I did.

 

[GoCanes2015]

He has 2 (TWO) points in 2020. Might be he's not really on a 40-point "pace" anymore. His "pace" in 2020 is going at a 14-point pace. Oh and he's also -10 (MINUS TEN) in 2020, 83% of his entire year MINUS. He's a hot mess right now, colder than a witches t*t and isn't getting a first from anyone.

Hes on pace for 40 points... that’s what we were talking about... how is this hard to understand.

 

[Nocashstyle]

I think the Devils will be lucky to get a 1st for Vats, but it’s also not outlandish either. Vatanen is probably the best defenseman being (potentially) sold at the deadline this year. There will be plenty of teams calling.

 

[Brodeur]

Rental D do NOT return 1st round picks unless their name is Erik Karlsson, etc.

Carolina did swap Andrej Sekera to the Kings for a 1st a few years back at a rental. Obviously not saying that was a great deal from an LA perspective, but non-star D have fetched firsts (usually later firsts, which I think tend to get overvalued by fans) in the past. Kevin Shattenkirk got a late first as a rental in 2017, Cody Franson curiously returned a late first in 2015, what remained of Tomas Kaberle got a late first in 2011.

We'll see what Vatanen fetches. If I were Don Waddell, I wouldn't deal Toronto/Carolina's 1st for Vatanen, at least without conditions. We'll see if the Devils can do better than something centered around a prospect and NYR's 2nd.

 

[spockBokk]

Carolina did swap Andrej Sekera to the Kings for a 1st a few years back at a rental. Obviously not saying that was a great deal from an LA perspective, but non-star D have fetched firsts (usually later firsts, which I think tend to get overvalued by fans) in the past. Kevin Shattenkirk got a late first as a rental in 2017, Cody Franson curiously returned a late first in 2015, what remained of Tomas Kaberle got a late first in 2011.

We'll see what Vatanen fetches. If I were Don Waddell, I wouldn't deal Toronto/Carolina's 1st for Vatanen, at least without conditions. We'll see if the Devils can do better than something centered around a prospect and NYR's 2nd.

Right, Sekera went for a late 1st and Roland Mckeown, a former 2nd rounder who has been a very good AHL player for CAR, and the Caps just plain overpaid for Shattenkirk 3 years ago. There hasn’t been a 1st dealt for a rental D since those two.

It seems like GMs have wised up since 2017 and typically will only move a 1st for a top tier rental if they’re truly a cup contender. However, as has been reported by Friedman and others, teams are loathe to part with their 1sts this year for a player that may only be on their roster for 30 or so games.

Some desperate GM may end up paying up for Vatanen with their 1st, but I’d be pretty surprised if that happened. More likely, the offers begin with a 2nd and I’d hope CAR jumps in there. If the price is a 1st, good luck to NJD cause there’s zero reason to believe, based of their current front office’s past moves, that CAR would have any part of giving up that sort of asset for a rental.

 

[WreckingCrew]

I stopped reading after your first sentence because Karlsson was traded as someone with 1 year left on his deal

Well that much is painfully obvious because you're literally proving my point...full year vs rental means Karlsson would get more as an equivalent player. More importantly, stop trying to use Karlsson as a benchmark/comparison for Vatanen

 

[mikeyfan]

Hes on pace for 40 points... that’s what we were talking about... how is this hard to understand.

Season 3/4 over 40 points isn't in the cards

 

[MichaelJ]

Would Carolina be willing to move Kuokkanen and a pick (obviously not a 1st)?

 

[devils29]

Well that much is painfully obvious because you're literally proving my point...full year vs rental means Karlsson would get more as an equivalent player. More importantly, stop trying to use Karlsson as a benchmark/comparison for Vatanen

You tried to use him as a bench mark... please point out where i mentioned him first... and last time i checked an expiring contract in September is still an expiring contract... stop trying to make me look bad for things you said...

 

[devils29]

Season 3/4 over 40 points isn't in the cards

23/47x82=40.1 basic math is hard i know

 

[WreckingCrew]

You tried to use him as a bench mark... please point out where i mentioned him first... and last time i checked an expiring contract in September is still an expiring contract... stop trying to make me look bad for things you said...

That was literally my only post/response and there is 0 mention of Karlsson (perhaps you confused my post with someone else's?)...and you can't possibly think 1/3 season is the same value as a full season of a contract?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I won’t try to predict the Canes front office, but personally, I’d hate it if they trade a 1st at all, much less for Vatanen. Canes, IMO, aren’t 1 player away from being a contender, particularly with Mrazek/Reimer.

plus, Toronto isn’t guaranteed a playoff spot and on the off chance they win the lottery and the Canes move their own pick, they conceivably end up without a 1st in a deeper draft.
If the Devils can get a 1st for Vatanen, more power to them, I just hope it isn’t the Canes aren’t the team that gives it to them,

 

[mikeyfan]

23/47x82=40.1 basic math is hard i know

23/52X82 =v36.269.

Seems you are the one with the math problem

 

[spockBokk]

Would Carolina be willing to move Kuokkanen and a pick (obviously not a 1st)?

Take a look at the original post. Personally, I think they’d easily move Kuokkanen plus their own 2nd round pick.

 

[newsportsfan123]

Take a look at the original post. Personally, I think they’d easily move Kuokkanen plus their own 2nd round pick.

Kuokkanen is untouchable.. kid is tearing up the AHL, he’s an A prospect. I definitely would not trade him.

 

[spockBokk]

Kuokkanen is untouchable.. kid is tearing up the AHL, he’s an A prospect. I definitely would not trade him.

Seriously?

Where does he fit in the Canes' current lineup? Even next year, he'd have to blow the doors off at training camp to even sniff a spot in the top 9.

Tearing up the AHL? He's not even a point a game player. He projects as a 3rd liner.

Given the depth of CAR's system, I'd very easily trade him plus a 2nd for a D the caliber of Vatanen. Kuokkanen is a good prospect with an NHL future but to make a guy like him untouchable for a glaring roster need is ridiculous.

 

[newsportsfan123]

Seriously?

Where does he fit in CAR current lineup? Tearing up the AHL? He's not even a point a game player. He projects as a 3rd liner. Given the depth of CAR's system, I'd very easily trade him plus a 2nd for a D the caliber of Vatanen.

He’s a top prospect in the Carolina system, no one agrees with Kuokkanen being traded. HFBoard Cane fans are worse than Facebook Cane fans.

 

[spockBokk]

He’s a top prospect in the Carolina system, no one agrees with Kuokkanen being traded. HFBoard Cane fans are worse than Facebook Cane fans.

He's barely top 10.

I'd personally rank-Suzuki, Rees, Gauthier, Bean, Honka, Bokk Gauthier, Geekie above him quite easily.

 

[newsportsfan123]

He's barely top 10.

I'd personally rank-Suzuki, Rees, Gauthier, Bean, Honka, Bokk Gauthier, Geekie above him quite easily.

Honka is a boom or bust. He is good offensively, but worse than Gardiner at defense. Rees-Suzuki-Gauthier-Bean-Bokk-Kuokkanen-Geekie. He’s having his best season and it’s not his fault he can’t get a place in the lineup when RBA hates using his younger players.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Honka is a boom or bust. He is good offensively, but worse than Gardiner at defense. Rees-Suzuki-Gauthier-Bean-Bokk-Kuokkanen-Geekie. He’s having his best season and it’s not his fault he can’t get a place in the lineup when RBA hates using his younger players.

That's just not true.

Last season (Rod's first), he had 5 rookies in the opening line-up: Svechnikov, Foegele, Necas, Wallmark, and Zykov. Eventually, Necas showed he wasn't ready and Zykov showed he wasn't good enough. This season, he has Necas in the line-up.

Svechnikov (19), Necas (20), Aho (22), Foegele (23), Wallmark (23), Fleury (23) all are playing significant roles on the Canes right now and guys like Luostarinen (20) got an 8 game stretch earlier in the season. The Canes are one of the youngest teams in the NHL and Rod has not been afraid to play young players in key roles.

The thing Rod demands, is that guys play as hard away from the puck as they do with the puck, which many young guys need to learn and develop, but if they show that (like Foegele did last year), he has no problem playing them.

Kuokkanen is easily expendable in a deal IMO.

 

[spockBokk]

Honka is a boom or bust. He is good offensively, but worse than Gardiner at defense. Rees-Suzuki-Gauthier-Bean-Bokk-Kuokkanen-Geekie. He’s having his best season and it’s not his fault he can’t get a place in the lineup when RBA hates using his younger players.

Are you related to Kuokkanen?

I guess I get not wanting to part with him, he's likely one of your favorite prospects. Suzuki and Honka are my current faves by the way. But, the Canes now desperately need a top 4 RD. They have an overabundance of picks/prospects. Now is most certainly the time to spend some of that built up capital, within reason, to bolster the roster for a playoff push.

 

[ADD-devil950003]

23/52X82 =v36.269.

Seems you are the one with the math problem

It’s always fantastic when you get to tell someone so convinced that they are right that they are wrong...How about you go look at how many games Sami has played this year. I’ll give you a hint, devils29 had it right the whole time lmfao.

 

[Chrispy]

Are you related to Kuokkanen?

I guess I get not wanting to part with him, he's likely one of your favorite prospects. Suzuki and Honka are my current faves by the way. But, the Canes now desperately need a top 4 RD. They have an overabundance of picks/prospects. Now is most certainly the time to spend some of that built up capital, within reason, to bolster the roster for a playoff push.

I certainly see this argument. While it would be nice to keep Kuokkanen for depth, he is expansion draft eligible and won't be protected by Carolina. So making the Hurricanes next year auditions him for a trade or for a Seattle pick.

I do think highly enough of Kuokkanen that I'd argue for a 3rd, not a 2nd with him. But I don't think I'd let the deal fall through over that.

 

[spockBokk]

With the Seth Jones injury, I wonder if CBJ now checks in on Vatanen. Asking price truly might start with a 1st....I'd be shocked though if CAR were in on that.