TSN: Vanek Open to Being Traded, Hopes He Can Stay By Winning

[Martinez]

Didn't want to make a new thread for this but Holland basically said he won't be a seller. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2017/01/gm_ken_holland_has_response_to.html

So yeah don't trade z, kronner, big e. Let them be leaders and teach the kids how to carry themselves. But guys like green and vanek should be traded. They have value right now, in a few years they might not have good value, in fact this could be the highest their value will get for the rest of their careers. We aren't going to compete for a cup for a while so we need to trade them. Kenny is still making signings to patch holes, but the whole ship is slowly sinking and eventually he has to accept that. I don't mind him making short term vanek signings in the offseason because now we can trade him at the TDL. Frans signings should stop. Ok now I'm drunk rambling, I'll stop.

 

[Ennui]

Outside of being the attractive destinations in free agency (i.e. Florida, where there are no state income taxes), it seems like there are two prevalent models in the league as far as competing for the Stanley Cup in the salary cap era; teams can either fully commit to trading away futures/prospects for current impact players, or teams can resign themselves to riding the currents of their talent pool and ability to field competitive talent wherever it takes them. If that current pulls them under, they try to make the most of drafting quality talent and re-stock their talent pool.

Holland, for all of his success during the pre-cap era and salary cap era, has so far proven to be too meek to properly manage the team's assets and maximize our return. It's impossible to win every trade, but he has shied away from the trade floor when big names have been available, just as he has been loathe to part ways with prospects that are 2nd/3rd line players because the organization hopes/imagines that they are capable of being 1st line players. With a more competitive GM, it's not difficult to imagine that we would at least have a more balanced team and prospect pool with better coverage of the team's needs.

Given his traditional M.O., I think it's most likely that he tries to move Vanek and holds out hope that he can bring in someone like Shattenkirk, or perhaps somehow pry away Fowler from the Ducks.

 

[Reddwit]

to me that leaves open the possiblity of trading vanek and maybe someone else. but there wouldn't be firesale.

we'll see.

If we still have a 50/50 chance of making the playoffs at the deadline, Vanek won't be traded. Judging by Holland's comments, the only way Vanek gets traded is if we're way out of the playoff picture. Otherwise, Holland will see Vanek as integral to keep the playoff push going.

Only guy I see him trading is Smith, if he has a taker. Counting Lashoff, we have 9 defenseman that management feels comfortable with on NHL ice. There's also Russo. Losing Smith is negligible to our D depth.

Only other way trades happen at this point is if a player requests it.

 

[Kyleftlx]

Outside of being the attractive destinations in free agency (i.e. Florida, where there are no state income taxes), it seems like there are two prevalent models in the league as far as competing for the Stanley Cup in the salary cap era; teams can either fully commit to trading away futures/prospects for current impact players, or teams can resign themselves to riding the currents of their talent pool and ability to field competitive talent wherever it takes them. If that current pulls them under, they try to make the most of drafting quality talent and re-stock their talent pool.

Holland, for all of his success during the pre-cap era and salary cap era, has so far proven to be too meek to properly manage the team's assets and maximize our return. It's impossible to win every trade, but he has shied away from the trade floor when big names have been available, just as he has been loathe to part ways with prospects that are 2nd/3rd line players because the organization hopes/imagines that they are capable of being 1st line players. With a more competitive GM, it's not difficult to imagine that we would at least have a more balanced team and prospect pool with better coverage of the team's needs.

Given his traditional M.O., I think it's most likely that he tries to move Vanek and holds out hope that he can bring in someone like Shattenkirk, or perhaps somehow pry away Fowler from the Ducks.

The lack of trades really makes you scratch your head as a fan. Holland loves to talk about how hard it is to stay competitive without drafting the "elite" talent that comes with top picks, but then when there are elite players available via trade, he is afraid to go after them. It blows my mind most when it is the offseason and the free agency hasn't started yet. That's the best time to start making major roster moves, blockbuster esque trades, because you have an entire offseason to go after the Thomas Vanek's and Eric Staal's of the league to replace whatever scorer you traded away.

I will always say that Holland is in a tough position because he values that stupid playoff streak too much. The Red Wings cannot do what every other team does until that streak is broken, and there's no way they're going to lay down and admit defeat until there's almost no chance they can make it. I would say that the Red Wings situation is much different from the majority of the teams in the league, and that is a huge part of why Holland does things the way he has, but I think it's alarming just how much he refuses to accept the reality of the situation and actually make some big changes.

 

[Dotter]

The lack of trades really makes you scratch your head as a fan. Holland loves to talk about how hard it is to stay competitive without drafting the "elite" talent that comes with top picks, but then when there are elite players available via trade, he is afraid to go after them. It blows my mind most when it is the offseason and the free agency hasn't started yet. That's the best time to start making major roster moves, blockbuster esque trades, because you have an entire offseason to go after the Thomas Vanek's and Eric Staal's of the league to replace whatever scorer you traded away.

I will always say that Holland is in a tough position because he values that stupid playoff streak too much. The Red Wings cannot do what every other team does until that streak is broken, and there's no way they're going to lay down and admit defeat until there's almost no chance they can make it. I would say that the Red Wings situation is much different from the majority of the teams in the league, and that is a huge part of why Holland does things the way he has, but I think it's alarming just how much he refuses to accept the reality of the situation and actually make some big changes.

Who are these elite players was he afraid of going after via trade?

 

[Kyleftlx]

Who are these elite players was he afraid of going after via trade?

I guess I'd go with just about any offseason trade that has happened since Lidstrom retired as examples of deals he could have attempted to make, but didn't. Just about any Blackhawks trade in recent years -- Saad would be awesome to have these last two years, as would Nick Leddy. Boston has made some extremely regrettable trades involving very high quality players in recent years with Seguin, Lucic, Hamilton, and Boychuk. Any of those guys played very large roles for their teams and would have been really smart pickups for what they ultimately returned. The Blue Jackets acquired Foligno coming off a 47 point season for Marc Methot. Foligno is really up and down, but he can absolutely make a huge difference when he's playing well. I understand that recent trades such as Weber for Subban and Larsson for Hall are unrealistic, but there have been opportunities to improve the team via trade, and Detroit clearly hasn't made it happen. Winnipeg had a situation all offseason with Trouba, but nothing happened. Now he's playing 23 minutes per night out there.

I don't think it is a fair argument to say that there aren't high quality players available, or that Detroit doesn't have the pieces to bring them in, because every year it seems like there is some sort of trade that makes no sense. You just have to be able to make it happen. Kyle Turris returned a 2nd rounder and a high end prospect a couple years ago. He was a 3rd overall pick. He had yet to develop into a higher end player, but it was clear that he had the talent level to become something good. Filip Forsberg returned Martin Erat. Ryan Strome is a recent name that has come up as a potential trade candidate. Expect Holland to have any interest in that? Probably not, but the kid scored 50 points at the age of 21. He's a former 5th overall pick. Elite talent level? Possibly.

The point is, there's always some team that is ready to let go of a solid player, and you just have to work the phones and try to work something out. Holland hasn't made a legitimate trade in years. You cannot tell me that he hasn't fielded a phone call that could have landed him a player with unreal talent in half a decade or longer...

 

[HIFE]

Didn't want to make a new thread for this but Holland basically said he won't be a seller. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2017/01/gm_ken_holland_has_response_to.html

Facinating. Holland is trolling HF! It's almost creepy how he responds to the exact discussion of fans online the last weeks. His statements are similar as usual but today a couple phrases really stand out. Someone in the Wings must be reporting feedback to comment on. His answers to questions and criticisms raised on this board recently are surreal:

-Holland's process to build a cup-team is through solid drafts, prudent signings, patience, and luck.

Suuure...

-Holland says wait until the last week to decide if we're sellers, buyers, or standing pat.

I seriously think any of three could happen because he also says making the PO's is winning.

-The goal is to win the Stanley Cup.

He repeats this 3 times within a small paragraph of sentences. This is what grabbed my attention, something he wasn't claiming in the fall. I know it's a given that management would proclaim as much but the actual wording I haven't heard expressed in a while.

-If we're far out of the PO's he won't dump players. Mantha and AA shouldn't be exposed to the pressures of carrying a club. The culture of veteran leadership doesn't make a difference if you're "not good enough" or a superstar. The veteran culture will make a difference for those players that need time, guidance, and maturity. We must wait for our young players to emerge as talents.

How about we try and draft a superstar, haha. Interesting he mentions Z, Nielsen, Vanek, and Ericsson.

-"We're going to continue to try and be competitive, we're going to continue to try and make the playoffs and our ultimate goal is to eventually be a Cup contender."

Hmm these 3 goals seem contradictory in the real world, any opinions on this statement? Is it just rhetoric?

-5, 6, or 7 Griffins will be on the team within 2 or 3 years.

Any thought on this?

-Holland prefers rebuilding on the fly. Rebuilds mean 8-10 years.

He refers as an example to teams that have made the playoffs 1 in 10 years (Edmonton, Isles, Avalanche(?). Hilarious the same argument made by a few here in defense of not rebuilding.

We're trying to win every year. What's winning? Winning is making the playoffs and you're in the top half of the league.

KH isn't just not on the same page, he's in a totally different book compared to the opinions of a lot of Wings fans. Pretty crazy.

 

[Claypool]

The point is, there's always some team that is ready to let go of a solid player, and you just have to work the phones and try to work something out. Holland hasn't made a legitimate trade in years. You cannot tell me that he hasn't fielded a phone call that could have landed him a player with unreal talent in half a decade or longer...

There were plenty of trade opportunties in the last three years alone that included moving Larkin, Mantha, and likely Mrazek. Holland, thankfully, didn't do anything. I don't understand the "trade for the sake of a trade" mentality some people have around here.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Didn't want to make a new thread for this but Holland basically said he won't be a seller. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2017/01/gm_ken_holland_has_response_to.html

We were never going to sell guys like Z, Nielsen etc., the long-term guys. Vanek, Smith, Sheahan, Jurco, Miller, Ott.. these are the guys likely to be shopped around if we're way out. Can we get a late 1st out of Vanek? Maybe a 3rd for Sheahan? 5th-7th round picks for guys like Smith/Jurco? Conditional pick for Ott maybe. Something like that is probably the ideal scenario for us as a deadline seller.

-5, 6, or 7 Griffins will be on the team within 2 or 3 years.

Any thought on this?

Bertuzzi, Nosek, Svechnikov, Hicketts, Russo... maybe Sadowy, he could be counting Coreau as well. And maybe Criscuolo?

 

[Henkka]

We are proably gonna sell Vanek and Smith, and those standings on March 1st will determine that, just like Holland said.

Then we won't be anywhere near of playoff spot. Just wait for few road games and a losing streak.

 

[Henkka]

Bertuzzi, Nosek, Svechnikov, Hicketts, Russo... maybe Sadowy, he could be counting Coreau as well. And maybe Criscuolo?

Svechnikov, Bertuzzi, Russo, Hicketts, Nosek/Sadowy = 5

Currently promoted in NHL = Jensen + Coreau = 7

That's "5-7".

 

[mikerooooose]

If we can resign him for similar money on a two-year deal, I would do it. He seems to be a good mentor for AA and other young guys.

 

[Dotter]

Svechnikov, Bertuzzi, Russo, Hicketts, Nosek/Sadowy = 5

Currently promoted in NHL = Jensen + Coreau = 7

That's "5-7".

Mantha/AA/Oullett/Sproul/Larkin/Bert/Svech/Russo/Hicketts/Nosek/Jensen/Coreau/Cholo - take your pick.

Saad would be awesome to have these last two years.

I would like Saad. Who would you trade for Saad?

 

[Henkka]

Mantha/AA/Oullett/Sproul/Larkin/Bert/Svech/Russo/Hicketts/Nosek/Jensen/Coreau/Cholo - take your pick.

Holland talked about 5-7 possible NHL players (mostly depth players, like everybody understands) currently in Grand Rapids.

What does Cholowski, Mantha, AA, Oullet, Sproul and Larkin do on your list? Those are college/NHL players.

 

[jkutswings]

Who are these elite players was he afraid of going after via trade?

Overall, I'd say that elite is overkill, but they definitely balked at an RFA sheet for Weber, who is an elite player. Other than that, it's been a series of refusals to part with any assets above waiver wire material.

For example, back in June, there's a good chance that Anaheim would have thought long and hard about trading Fowler for something like Tatar + AA. Now? Not a chance. Kenny has played it safe to the extreme whenever possible for several years, which simultaneously raises the floor and lowers the ceiling of where the team can go (until the slide reaches a tipping point, which it seems to be doing this year).

Guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader, and AA are decent assets, but none of them are core pieces, so any of them should be available in the right trade package. But they're not going anywhere, 'cause reasons.

 

[ricky0034]

Overall, I'd say that elite is overkill, but they definitely balked at an RFA sheet for Weber, who is an elite player. Other than that, it's been a series of refusals to part with any assets above waiver wire material.

For example, back in June, there's a good chance that Anaheim would have thought long and hard about trading Fowler for something like Tatar + AA. Now? Not a chance. Kenny has played it safe to the extreme whenever possible for several years, which simultaneously raises the floor and lowers the ceiling of where the team can go (until the slide reaches a tipping point, which it seems to be doing this year).

Guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader, and AA are decent assets, but none of them are core pieces, so any of them should be available in the right trade package. But they're not going anywhere, 'cause reasons.

do we actually know this or is it just something people assume? offer sheets generally aren't really something that is heard of if the player doesn't choose to sign them

in any case it would have been pretty pointless,even in the event that Weber had chosen to sign an offer sheet with the Wings there's pretty much no way anyone would let someone like Weber go instead of just matching it(as they did in fact do with the offer sheet he signed with Philadelphia)

 

[Retire91]

When Holland makes a public announcement on two different options you can bank on him leaning towards the more conservative of the options he presents which in this case is staying the course. If he does anything dynamic my money would be on him being a buyer.

 

[Dotter]

Holland talked about 5-7 possible NHL players (mostly depth players, like everybody understands) currently in Grand Rapids.

What does Cholowski, Mantha, AA, Oullet, Sproul and Larkin do on your list? Those are college/NHL players.

I think you are taking his comment too literal. He is talking about young players who were/are/going to be/soon to be from Griffins.

Ken Holland has never been articulate enough at expressing his thoughts like William Shakespeare.

 

[Dotter]

Overall, I'd say that elite is overkill, but they definitely balked at an RFA sheet for Weber, who is an elite player. Other than that, it's been a series of refusals to part with any assets above waiver wire material.

I never heard this.

For example, back in June, there's a good chance that Anaheim would have thought long and hard about trading Fowler for something like Tatar + AA. Now? Not a chance. Kenny has played it safe to the extreme whenever possible for several years, which simultaneously raises the floor and lowers the ceiling of where the team can go (until the slide reaches a tipping point, which it seems to be doing this year).

Guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader, and AA are decent assets, but none of them are core pieces, so any of them should be available in the right trade package. But they're not going anywhere, 'cause reasons.

Are you sure it wasn't Larkin they wanted? I mean Adam Larsson did return Taylor Hall...

It seems like your are grabbing things out of thin air here.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Overall, I'd say that elite is overkill, but they definitely balked at an RFA sheet for Weber, who is an elite player. Other than that, it's been a series of refusals to part with any assets above waiver wire material.

***
I never heard this.
***


For example, back in June, there's a good chance that Anaheim would have thought long and hard about trading Fowler for something like Tatar + AA. Now? Not a chance. Kenny has played it safe to the extreme whenever possible for several years, which simultaneously raises the floor and lowers the ceiling of where the team can go (until the slide reaches a tipping point, which it seems to be doing this year).

Guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader, and AA are decent assets, but none of them are core pieces, so any of them should be available in the right trade package. But they're not going anywhere, 'cause reasons.

***
Are you sure it wasn't Larkin they wanted? I mean Adam Larsson did return Taylor Hall...
It seems like your are grabbing things out of thin air here.

1) Wings "balked" at an RFA sheet for Weber because they simply don't do offer sheets. 99 times out of 100, you're simply negotiating the contract for a team because a player worth offer sheeting is generally a player that the team would bend over backwards to keep. They tried trading for Weber's RFA rights, but didn't have the trade ammo to overcome Philly's four 1sts or the rumored Schenn + Couturier + price.

2) Why do you think Anaheim would have done that? Because HFboarders said so? That always pissed me off about the Fowler/Vatanen stuff. Because message board jockeys on both sides were like "that sounds about right", everyone went nuts about "why hasn't this trade been made yet?" Everything I remember from the news rumors was Tatar + 16 for Fowler, because Buffalo had #8 ready to go for them. Unless you think AA is somehow worth the 16OA now, I don't get your complaint.

3) And yeah.. they haven't been traded because their worth to the team is higher than what they would return. Most trades would be shuffling the deck to shuffle the deck. They do need to ship out someone like Mantha or Larkin in a large package for someone impactful. If Tatar, Nyquist, Abdelkader, etc. aren't core pieces and you don't want to build around them and you want them gone... why on earth would another team trade you a core piece for them? And if we're beating the drum on the "#20 and back on average are third liners and bottom pairing guys", why should we trade bona fide top 6 forwards for them? And if you don't think Tatar/Nyquist are bonafide top 6ers, why would you think Anaheim or anyone else would trade a top 4, borderline top pairing D for them?

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth on this. Either our players have **** all for value (like you say for them being here) or they somehow have enough value to land essentially prime Kronwall.

That's basically the frame of mind to have. Would you have traded Niklas Kronwall in 2009 (when he was the #3D here and after his injuries were done) for Jussi Jokinen? I know I sure wouldn't.

 

[jkutswings]

I never heard this.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.mlive.com/articles/8705948/red_wings_pursued_defenseman_s.amp

That's the very first hit on a 2-second Google search on Weber. I'm sure there's a lot more out there.

Are you sure it wasn't Larkin they wanted? I mean Adam Larsson did return Taylor Hall...

It seems like your are grabbing things out of thin air here.

You're thinking of Shattenkirk, where they very much did ask for Larkin, but Detroit said no. For Fowler, Tatar was the centerpiece of most of the talks and rumors at the time, with anything from Smith to Mantha as the sweetener. (Wings preferred a Pulkkanen or Smith; Ducks preferred a Mantha or AA, although Sheahan was bright up as well.). Here's one of the analyses from back then:

/amp/www.wingingitinmotown.com/platform/amp/2016/10/24/13380090/red-wings-trade-rumors-cam-fowler-anthony-mantha

 

[jkutswings]

1) Wings "balked" at an RFA sheet for Weber because they simply don't do offer sheets. 99 times out of 100, you're simply negotiating the contract for a team because a player worth offer sheeting is generally a player that the team would bend over backwards to keep. They tried trading for Weber's RFA rights, but didn't have the trade ammo to overcome Philly's four 1sts or the rumored Schenn + Couturier + price.

2) Why do you think Anaheim would have done that? Because HFboarders said so? That always pissed me off about the Fowler/Vatanen stuff. Because message board jockeys on both sides were like "that sounds about right", everyone went nuts about "why hasn't this trade been made yet?" Everything I remember from the news rumors was Tatar + 16 for Fowler, because Buffalo had #8 ready to go for them. Unless you think AA is somehow worth the 16OA now, I don't get your complaint.

3) And yeah.. they haven't been traded because their worth to the team is higher than what they would return. Most trades would be shuffling the deck to shuffle the deck. They do need to ship out someone like Mantha or Larkin in a large package for someone impactful. If Tatar, Nyquist, Abdelkader, etc. aren't core pieces and you don't want to build around them and you want them gone... why on earth would another team trade you a core piece for them? And if we're beating the drum on the "#20 and back on average are third liners and bottom pairing guys", why should we trade bona fide top 6 forwards for them? And if you don't think Tatar/Nyquist are bonafide top 6ers, why would you think Anaheim or anyone else would trade a top 4, borderline top pairing D for them?

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth on this. Either our players have **** all for value (like you say for them being here) or they somehow have enough value to land essentially prime Kronwall.

That's basically the frame of mind to have. Would you have traded Niklas Kronwall in 2009 (when he was the #3D here and after his injuries were done) for Jussi Jokinen? I know I sure wouldn't.

You honestly think that Nyquist/Tatar + AA/Svech couldn't land a top-4 defenseman? That's the type of deal they should go after. Wingers are a dime a dozen; jettison a few to start improving the defense.

Heck, I might've considered Tatar + 16OA. I certainly don't see any of the prospects they got as being a Fowler or better.

 

[Flowah]

You honestly think that Nyquist/Tatar + AA/Svech couldn't land a top-4 defenseman? That's the type of deal they should go after. Wingers are a dime a dozen; jettison a few to start improving the defense.

Heck, I might've considered Tatar + 16OA. I certainly don't see any of the prospects they got as being a Fowler or better.

I'm wondering why a top4 guy is on our list. We got plenty of em. Can't tell me Kronner, Green, DK, aren't perfectly fine middle pairing guys. XO/Jensen don't look completely awful either.

It's clear that for the past few years our biggest need is a top2 d-man. Preferably a 1D. Adding one or two more top4 doesn't really move the needle.

 

[Frk It]

You honestly think that Nyquist/Tatar + AA/Svech couldn't land a top-4 defenseman? That's the type of deal they should go after. Wingers are a dime a dozen; jettison a few to start improving the defense.

Heck, I might've considered Tatar + 16OA. I certainly don't see any of the prospects they got as being a Fowler or better.

The only trade that makes sense to me is to trade for a prospect with 0 or very little NHL games who you think has top pairing potential and take that gamble. These guys aren't going to land an established top pairing guy, and we don't really need another middle pairing guy. You can find middle pairing guys in free agency or trade pretty easily.

 

[Wood Stick]

The only trade that makes sense to me is to trade for a prospect with 0 or very little NHL games who you think has top pairing potential and take that gamble. These guys aren't going to land an established top pairing guy, and we don't really need another middle pairing guy. You can find middle pairing guys in free agency or trade pretty easily.

Actually I think it's hard to find a top four at times. You see rumours every season of teams looking for a top four D.