TSN: Vanek Open to Being Traded, Hopes He Can Stay By Winning

[njx9]

You said there is no reason for teams to improve their team. Your stupid comment is hard to reply to other than "yes it is". Saying "yes it is" wasn't a fun answer for me. The underlining message went over your head, it appears.

You: As time goes on, the "best" team won't win the playoffs, the "healthiest" and/or "hot streak" team will win.

You're suggesting that there's no reason to try to be the 'best' team, since you won't win anyways. Much better to just be 'healthy' or 'hot'.

Me: That's a fun narrative. If we spin it that way, then there's no reason to ever improve the team at all. Sign nothing but cheap, mediocre players, since, apparently, it's all just a roll of the dice that has no correlation to talent anyways.

Under your own premise, being the best team carries no advantage whatsoever. I've agreed to your premise and followed it to the logical conclusion: don't bother with being the best, simply field enough guys to make the playoffs, then roll the dice. Apparently your odds, by your own statement are identical.

But hey, it's probably my fault you aren't apparently capable of saying what you actually think you're saying. Good luck with that. I'm done taking your bait.

 

[njx9]

Your comment was nothing but a hyperbolic strawman.

Almost as if I responded to something that wasn't already...

 

[Dotter]

nowhere in my post did I say teams don't need to try. /facepalm

I want teams to try. All of them. I think they should be punished if they don't try. But really, are we really having this debate?

 

[jkutswings]

What are you talking about? Ken Holland is improving the team. He signed Vanek, Nielsen and Green. They are drafting well in their allotted draft position; Mantha, Larkin, Oullet, Mrazek, AA, Tatar, Nyquist.

How is that not improving? All teams try to improve unless your Oilers, Sabres or TML. All teams that haven't done anything since the dawn of time. But they'll have their day, too. Parity promises us that.



I was told those don't count because they were reminiscences before the cap era and lottery era.

Because the players brought in over the last 5 years collectively have a lower talent influx than the outflux created by the regression and/or loss of their (formerly) best players. And the results back it up: the Wings have gone from comfortably making the playoffs, but getting outmuscled in the 2nd round by San Jose, to squeaking into the playoffs, and being a regular 1st round exit, to likely missing the playoffs altogether.

THIS IS A BAD HOCKEY TEAM. It needs multiple high-end players that are likely not yet in the organization, and the odds of accomplishing that with a tweak here and there are microscopic, so sell Vanek and any other vets with value.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Didn't want to make a new thread for this but Holland basically said he won't be a seller. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2017/01/gm_ken_holland_has_response_to.html

Even if the Red Wings fall further behind, Holland won't just dump players, in part because it would leave a void. Young players, such as forwards Anthony Mantha and Andreas Athanasiou, he said, should not be exposed to the pressures of carrying a club. Those expectations, he noted, didn't fall to Henrik Zetterberg or, defensively, to Niklas Kronwall until their mid-20s. For Zetterberg it was after the retirement of Steve Yzerman, while Kronwall's leadership grew after Nicklas Lidstrom retired after 2012.

"That's why it's so important to have a Henrik Zetterberg sitting beside an Anthony Mantha or a (Thomas) Vanek and Franz Nielsen playing on a line with Athanasiou, and a Jonathan Ericssen playing (defense) with Xavier Ouellet," Holland said. "... That's where the culture is that can make a difference.

 

[Dotter]

Because the players brought in over the last 5 years collectively have a lower talent influx than the outflux created by the regression and/or loss of their (formerly) best players. And the results back it up: the Wings have gone from comfortably making the playoffs, but getting outmuscled in the 2nd round by San Jose, to squeaking into the playoffs, and being a regular 1st round exit, to likely missing the playoffs altogether.

THIS IS A BAD HOCKEY TEAM. It needs multiple high-end players that are likely not yet in the organization, and the odds of accomplishing that with a tweak here and there are microscopic, so sell Vanek and any other vets with value.

It's an injury riddled hockey team that's been on a slump with young talent proving to be on the rise. This team wouldn't be as bad if Nyquist, Sheahan and Tatar put up the numbers they are expected to and Mrazek played like he was advertised. They would be sitting comfortably in a playoff spot right now.

They are not, so they are not. TBL aren't better than us and we have 2 games in hand. DRWs could bounce Boston out by the end of the month. Parity is showing it's ugly face again.

 

[TheMule93]

Didn't want to make a new thread for this but Holland basically said he won't be a seller. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2017/01/gm_ken_holland_has_response_to.html

That sucks. He is effectively pushing back our cup window another 5+ years barring a couple of miraculous late round superstars

 

[Frk It]

"To me, rebuild means eight to 10 years, and there are teams that have made the playoffs one year in 10 while rebuilding," he said. "I don't know of anyone that wants to sign up for that program. We're trying to win every year. What's winning? Winning is making the playoffs and you're in the top half of the league.

I don't know how anyone can look at this statement as anything other than a paradox.

 

[Retire91]

That sucks. He is effectively pushing back our cup window another 5+ years barring a couple of miraculous late round superstars

No surprising in the least given this GM's track record. Looks like we are going from milking veteran mediocrity to keep the streak alive to flat out denial. I guess the big question now is does he trade our first or second for a rental

 

[JPE123]

Didn't want to make a new thread for this but Holland basically said he won't be a seller. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2017/01/gm_ken_holland_has_response_to.html

That's dumb with Vanek though. What's he gonna do, wait and lose him for nothing? He doesn't have the money to sign him to a long term deal anyways.

 

[jkutswings]

Holland: "What's winning? Winning is making the playoffs and you're in the top half of the league."

If I get a 54% on a test, I've failed, despite answering more then half the questions correctly.

With quotes like this, the Wings are going nowhere until the are changes in the front office.

Oh yeah, and if making the playoffs is winning, get ready for a few years of losing.

 

[Ezekial]

If I get a 54% on a test, I've failed, despite answering more then half the questions correctly.

With quotes like this, the Wings are going nowhere until the are changes in the front office.

Oh yeah, and if making the playoffs is winning, get ready for a few years of losing.

If you're grading a test on an arbitrary school grading scale, but if you're test results are by percentile you are, in fact, above average.

Edit: If there are 30 kids in a given classroom, all 30 kids have the ability to score a passing grade. In the NHL, all 30 teams can't possibly be in the top 40 percentile.

 

[SirloinUB]

Didn't want to make a new thread for this but Holland basically said he won't be a seller. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2017/01/gm_ken_holland_has_response_to.html

Umm no.

His response to roster shedding? Let's wait another 16 games, or closer to the March 1 trade deadline. "At that point you have to ask if you're going to be a buyer, a seller or stand pat,"

"You got to know when to go in (as a trade deadline buyer or seller) and when not to go in. Certainly the standings tell you that."

Sounds like he is waiting to see what the team does before committing one way or the other. The fact that he would say, "the standing will tell you that" very clearly suggests he is open to the idea of selling assets at the TDL.

 

[vladdy16]

Almost as if I responded to something that wasn't already...

That post struck me as far from hyperbolic. It was an off hand observation that has obvious validity. Parity absolutely emphasizes the importance of health, depth and chemistry.

If you want to argue against that go for it. But you're arguing against someone saying that the quality of a team has no bearing on the result, and there is literally nobody taking that position.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Umm no.



Sounds like he is waiting to see what the team does before committing one way or the other. The fact that he would say, "the standing will tell you that" very clearly suggests he is open to the idea of selling assets at the TDL.

The quotes in my original post is what made me come to the conclusion that he was not going to be a seller. Again, thats just how I interpreted it.

 

[vladdy16]

Yeah, you guys gotta remain objective here. Holland's recent comments make it as clear as ever that he is prepared to be the Tigers from two years ago at the deadline if the wings don't make a big push before then.

He's also made it clear that if you're hoping for a full out tank, that will never be a part of the plan. There's no reason to read between the lines.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Yeah, you guys gotta remain objective here. Holland's recent comments make it as clear as ever that he is prepared to be the Tigers from two years ago at the deadline if the wings don't make a big push before then.

He's also made it clear that if you're hoping for a full out tank, that will never be a part of the plan. There's no reason to read between the lines.

What happened with the Tigers 2 years ago? Sorry, I don't follow baseball.

 

[Flowah]

Yeah and there is a name for it. It's called parity. That's what the NHL wanted, that is what the NHL is getting. The days of owning the league is over.

As time goes on, the "best" team won't win the playoffs, the "healthiest" and/or "hot streak" team will win.

The best teams that win almost always also have elite players.

Elite players that we absolutely don't have.

 

[SirloinUB]

The quotes in my original post is what made me come to the conclusion that he was not going to be a seller. Again, thats just how I interpreted it.

Well he clearly said the standings will dictate his position on selling. To me that would suggest selling is a real possibility

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Well he clearly said the standings will dictate his position on selling. To me that would suggest selling is a real possibility

He isn't going to sell ****.

You either die the hero or live long enough to end up being Joe Dumars.

 

[The Zermanator]

I don't know how anyone can look at this statement as anything other than a paradox.

"To me, rebuild means eight to 10 years, and there are teams that have made the playoffs one year in 10 while rebuilding," he said. "I don't know of anyone that wants to sign up for that program. We're trying to win every year. What's winning? Winning is making the playoffs and you're in the top half of the league.

Yes, and not only that, the utter lack of self-awareness on display by Mr Holland is stunning. We're what, 6-7 years into this 'rebuild on the fly' *gag* now? 6-7 years of being, with 1 or 2 exceptions, an easy first round out. And it's been a steady downhill slide too, we've been getting worse and worse in that timeframe. Getting pretty close to his 8-10 year mark already with no signs of improving. Apparently Purgatory counts as 'winning' now.

Ken Holland is an old dog who has run out of tricks. The Detroit Red Wings will not sniff another Cup with him at the helm. The sooner he is not making decisions anymore, the better.

 

[InjuredChoker]

to me that leaves open the possiblity of trading vanek and maybe someone else. but there wouldn't be firesale.

we'll see.

 

[Heaton]

The best teams that win almost always also have elite players.

Elite players that we absolutely don't have.

Which 'best' team hasn't won recently? Chicago certainly has been the best team for a long time, same with Pittsburgh and LA. I'm not seeing much parity in the Stanley Cup winners.

 

[TheMule93]

"parity" is always Hollands excuse too, yet the same teams are always winning the cup. Pittsburgh, Chicago, LA

 

[jkutswings]

Which 'best' team hasn't won recently? Chicago certainly has been the best team for a long time, same with Pittsburgh and LA. I'm not seeing much parity in the Stanley Cup winners.

The claim: Parity for everybody! Just hang in there, and everybody will win it all eventually!

The reality: Parity is a phenomenon confined to the regular season.