Post-Game Talk: Vancouver Canucks 4 vs. Philadelphia Flyers 1: Part 2. Irish Eyes Are Smiling Tonight

[Pip]

Oh, I agree that Henrik is the MVP. But losing our top pairing for an extended period of time, half of our second pairing for an even longer period of time, our starting (or 1A/1B goalie) for a long period of time...those aren't insignifcant injuries. Where we are at this point is impressiev.

Oh of course, especially since I wouldn't consider our d corps very deep in terms of guys capable of stepping up in the top 4.

 

[arsmaster*]

Ok, but then dorsetts ice time on nights like tonight wont be decreasing. If richardson is having a strong game playing 13 minutes mostly at even strength dorsett will be out to.

Of course people will just want him scratched but tonight for instance the canucks and some media stand firm kassian has a back problem.

The issue is you couldn't really call that game from that line "strong" last night.

They were our least effective line but they happened to pop one.

 

[Proto]

I don't know about that. I would venture that the decimation we've seen to this team's defense and goaltending puts our injury status on an as-bad or worse level as last season, and yet we've persevered through it in equal parts thanks to depth, players stepping up, and coaching.

The team has a lot more depth this year, even if the overall talent level is probably a bit lower. Losing Miller was an upgrade

 

[VanCity Millionaires]

Heart, character, grit, leadership, experience...these things don't show up on a stat sheet, but they do show up in the wins column. It's not all about zone time or shot attempts or whatever metric is all the rage now, not about fights or PIMs either. It's about being a team and playing for each other and building a group identity as you come together to pursue a goal. You can't isolate one player in a team sport like hockey and pick out numbers like that...it's a deceptive picture and detracts from what's really going on which is, they are playing together and growing together and building something good here, and Dorsett is a big part of that.

Dude it's 2015 and all about the advanced stats, corsi, and ****, you know... wake up and smell the coffee... the metrics never lie, and the even strength time on ice minus the corsi equals the best player on your team with the least shots against. Who cares about wins, we want the best corsi bro!

 

[Huggy]

Dorsett is playing a lot to keep everyone fresh for the playoffs

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

The team has a lot more depth this year, even if the overall talent level is probably a bit lower. Losing Miller was an upgrade

Yes, I'm sure at the start of the season we all would have been thrilled to know that we would be icing a top four consiting of Yannick Weber, Luca Sbisa and Ryan Stanton for an extended period of time. I'm sure we all would have scoffed at the idea that we would keep winning games, as well. Put the same situation into effect last year and do we get the same result?

In simple terms - what happened to our forward corps last year has happened to our defensive corps this year. And as I said, a combination of better depth (asset management, thanks Benning) better play (guys stepping up, thank you players) and better deployment (coaching, thanks Desjardins) is responsible for that.

But by all means, don't let me get in the way of you ranting against the bumbling idiocy of an NHL coach who has just reached 40 wins in his first season.

 

[Fairweather]

I'm being hyperbolic, but relative to a "good" NHL coach, these are idiotic decisions.

Out-coaching Tortorella from last season is not enough for me to be swayed that Dorsett should be anywhere near leading the team in 5v5 ice time for forwards in any circumstance.

Well let's look at AV then since he's doing great with the Rangers. From their forums, it looks like he's still deploying Tanner Glass

Usage is a bit lower than Dorsett but on the other hand, Glass has the same number of points all year as Dorsett in the last couple games.

I think we can definitely take it a bit more easy, this isn't something that's actually team-breaking like with Torts last year.

 

[J Canuck]

The team has a lot more depth this year, even if the overall talent level is probably a bit lower. Losing Miller was an upgrade

We're fortunate to have Eddie as our backup, because if he went down as our #1 we'd now be relying on Markstrom and Ericsson in this final stretch.

 

[Wisp]

Seems like Sbisa needs to torpedo or a playoff series for the Canucks to wake the eff up.

Seems like he's their Bernier. So... another season of this ****?

 

[Proto]

Yes, I'm sure at the start of the season we all would have been thrilled to know that we would be icing a top four consiting of Yannick Weber, Luca Sbisa and Ryan Stanton for an extended period of time. I'm sure we all would have scoffed at the idea that we would keep winning games, as well. Put the same situation into effect last year and do we get the same result?

In simple terms - what happened to our forward corps last year has happened to our defensive corps this year. And as I said, a combination of better depth (asset management, thanks Benning) better play (guys stepping up, thank you players) and better deployment (coaching, thanks Desjardins) is responsible for that.

But by all means, don't let me get in the way of you ranting against the bumbling idiocy of an NHL coach who has just reached 40 wins in his first season.

Wan wan. I've been pretty clear about my opinion of Desjardins: good systems/great player management but horrible roster utilization that erodes a lot of the other positives he brings.

This team is also almost exactly where I predicted they'd be this year. I said they could compete for around a 5-6 spot if they were relatively healthy and would be around 7-10 if they got hit hard with injuries. I think Desjardins has been right around average, but some of his dumber roster decisions (overplaying Miller, keeping Kassian out, removing Kenins) have been mitigated by "fortunate" injuries that have forced him away from his self-destructive tendencies towards loyalty.

I actually don't think Desjardins' deployment this year has been much better, outside of not overplaying his top players. I'll give him credit for that. But I don't see a good argument for icetime distribution like last night's -- Sedins/Burr saved his bacon.

 

[arsmaster*]

I think we can definitely take it a bit more easy, this isn't something that's actually team-breaking like with Torts last year.

Making the playoffs will be seen as a success, but I fully expect the usage issues to be compounded in the playoffs.

Teams will be salivating at the thoughts of getting their top guys in a hard match with any line Dorsett is on, and our coach, as evidenced by what we've seen here for almost 70 games, will not adapt.

 

[arsmaster*]

Tanner Glass has 4 games over 12 minutes this season. Dorsett has 38.

He's averaging 13 minutes since December.

Way too much.

 

[CherryToke]

Tanner Glass has 4 games over 12 minutes this season. Dorsett has 38.

He's averaging 13 minutes since December.

Way too much.

why are you comparing Dorsett with Glass?

 

[tc 23]

I don't know about that. I would venture that the decimation we've seen to this team's defense and goaltending puts our injury status on an as-bad or worse level as last season, and yet we've persevered through it in equal parts thanks to depth, players stepping up, and coaching.

While there have been significant injuries to the team in both season, I don't think the injuries this season really compare to last.

We finished last season with 299 man-games lost and are on-pace to finish this season with 222 man-games lost.

In terms of significant player injuries, the Canucks missed Burrows (33), Luongo (9), Edler (16), Henrik (12), Daniel (9), Hamhuis (2), Bieksa (5), Kesler (5), and Tanev (18) last season.

This season, they've missed Burrows (9), Miller (10 and counting), Edler (8), Hamhuis (22), Bieksa (22), Bonino (7), and Tanev (10). Henrik and Daniel have been healthy as well.

 

[Fairweather]

why are you comparing Dorsett with Glass?

I started it sorry.

Tanner Glass has 4 games over 12 minutes this season. Dorsett has 38.

He's averaging 13 minutes since December.

Way too much.

And Glass averages about 11 minutes which in the scheme of things really isn't that much less. But his production /60 is even worse than Dorsett which is my point, there will be anchors that coaches love in every team and it's not actually as team-breaking as it's made out to be.

 

[arsmaster*]

Teams only go as far as their top forwards. I don't think the "decimation" of our defense is anywhere near comparable to losing Hank, Danny, and Santorelli.

Not to mention, the injuries have worked out pretty well. Hamhuis missed tons of time, but we were healthy through that stretch, he comes back, we lose Bieksa.

5 or 6 games where you have to lean heavily on one pair, isn't the same as running a shoot first C as your #1 and Brad Richardson as your #2.

 

[vanuck]

Dude it's 2015 and all about the advanced stats, corsi, and ****, you know... wake up and smell the coffee... the metrics never lie, and the even strength time on ice minus the corsi equals the best player on your team with the least shots against. Who cares about wins, we want the best corsi bro!

You'll never guess who won the Corsi cup last year... or the years before that.

 

[arsmaster*]

I started it sorry.




And Glass averages about 11 minutes which in the scheme of things really isn't that much less. But his production /60 is even worse than Dorsett which is my point, there will be anchors that coaches love in every team and it's not actually as team-breaking as it's made out to be.

Average doesn't tell an accurate story. Dorsett has been top 5 in EV strength usage on this team for long stretches. That's too much.

It might not be "team-breaking", but it's not putting your best foot forward.

It's a decision that isn't putting your team in a best position to win on a nightly basis. We're "lucky" it hasn't cost us more IMO.

Their line was quite clearly our worst line last night, to the eye test, the fancy test, any test.

They were poor.

 

[duplo]

Tanner Glass has 4 games over 12 minutes this season. Dorsett has 38.

He's averaging 13 minutes since December.

Way too much.

Dorsett also has 23 points compared to Glass' 3. I really feel like all of the criticism of Dorsett is overblown. I agree he should be a healthy scratch candidate most nights when healthy, but I don't think he's a full-blown liability. I like what Botch said about him in last night's Provies:

Provies Link

Derek Dorsett’s sense of “team†and “we’re all in this together†is not matched by anyone I’ve seen around Rogers Arena in some time.

Maybe he is a candidate to be a healthy scratch, but even if that were to happen, I’d hate to see it undermine what he’s brought here. He’s been instrumental in creating a “we don’t take ****†attitude that has, at times, been lacking over the years.

He has also been essential in helping Horvat’s transition to being a pro.

“If you were an outsider looking in, and you didn’t know what was going on, you’d think Bo was a 5-10 year veteran,†Dorsett said.

“When I think there’s a time to give advice, or let him know on something someone has helped me out with, I try to pass it on. When you have a kid like Bo, you want to do it. He’s a good kid who is humble.

“And he asks questions. I try to help out as much as I can.â€

It’s true his even strength play hasn’t always been there, but then he has shifts like this where he pancakes Bellemare and then rubs out MacDonald and then sets up a goal.

I prefer having a guy like Dorsett playing over 10 minutes on the team over a guy like Welsh or Sestito playing under 5 minutes like last year. I'm not trying to criticize your opinion, I like your takes. It's just my sense.

 

[vanuck]

In simple terms - what happened to our forward corps last year has happened to our defensive corps this year. And as I said, a combination of better depth (asset management, thanks Benning) better play (guys stepping up, thank you players) and better deployment (coaching, thanks Desjardins) is responsible for that.

Serious question - in what way do you think playing guys like Vey/Dorsett/Sbisa in roles that are over their heads is better deployment? Even Torts never did that last season.

 

[carolinacanuck]

love dorsett. guy brings an element the canucks haven't had for a long time.

i think i've made this comparison before, but the red sox don't win their first world series in forever without a guy like kevin millar.

dorsett brings that same attitude.

&*^% corswick or fenstat or whatever it is the stats guys are so focused on

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Serious question - in what way do you think playing guys like Vey/Dorsett/Sbisa in roles that are over their heads is better deployment? Even Torts never did that last season.

When I say deployment, I am talking about every single player on the roster - not just the three players fans love to rag on the most. From top to bottom, Desjardins has (largely) made better use of his players, while also refusing to dress complete non-factors like the Tom Sestitos of the world.

Better conserving the Twins' energy, utilizing all of his options for their wingman be it Burrows, Vrbata or Kassian, easing in rookies like Horvat and Kenins and giving them more ice-time as their play dictates, and - yes - a certain amount of credit should to to a coach when key players go down to injury, especially defensively, and the depth guys step up and play at least passably.

Every single NHL coach is going to utilize players that leave fans scratching their heads. Most recently, Vigneault did that with Aaron Rome and Tanner Glass. Before that, Crawford loved tossing Brent Sopel out in every possible situation, where he was promptly babysat by Mattias Ohlund (this was well before Sopel became the stay-at-home, reliable defensive d-man he would be at the end of his career).

 

[arsmaster*]

Dorsett also has 23 points compared to Glass' 3. I really feel like all of the criticism of Dorsett is overblown. I agree he should be a healthy scratch candidate most nights when healthy, but I don't think he's a full-blown liability. I like what Botch said about him in last night's Provies:



I prefer having a guy like Dorsett playing over 10 minutes on the team over a guy like Welsh or Sestito playing under 5 minutes like last year. I'm not trying to criticize your opinion, I like your takes. It's just my sense.

I like Dorsett. I've stated it many times. He brings team building value that isn't really measurable. He plays too much, and is our worst regular forward.

I think Botch touched on some really good thinks in that article. Maybe a little overblown. Janik Hansen doesn't take **** either. He just brings a lot more to the table, so we don't cling to his "intangibles"....he's just clearly a better player that doesn't need the added "intangible" hype boost every time he's discussed.

I don't think you can credit him for Horvat being a stud, but you can credit him for that .gif last night. Pretty poor most of the night, but one good half a shift has made everyone forget his line being pinned.

I think Dorsett is a better player when he plays less.

 

[Scurr]

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?fet...=avgEvenStrengthTOIPerGame&viewName=timeOnIce

You can make arguments for individual games but overall I think the 5v5 deployment makes sense. Kenins, Vey, Dorsett, Horvat are 11-14... Twins are 1-2... am I missing something?

*for the record it looks like Dorsett averages 0:25 PP/Kassian 0:39 PP per game.

 

[Scurr]

Average doesn't tell an accurate story. Dorsett has been top 5 in EV strength usage on this team for long stretches. That's too much.

It might not be "team-breaking", but it's not putting your best foot forward.

It's a decision that isn't putting your team in a best position to win on a nightly basis. We're "lucky" it hasn't cost us more IMO.

Their line was quite clearly our worst line last night, to the eye test, the fancy test, any test.

They were poor.

It doesn't tell the story you want but it's accurate. If Dorsett is playing "long stretches of top 5 even strength minutes", he's also playing games where he plays much, much less. Or he wouldn't average the 13th most minutes.