Proposal: (VAN/TOR) Jett Woo, Brendan Leipsic for Andreas Johnsson and Justin Holl

[joe dirte]

What a ridiculous thing to post.

Make a trade proposal and then don't stand behind it?

I think this one you're gonna have to back off, for your own benefit. I think both teams laugh off this proposal, because neither team really wants what the other is offering.

Leipsic sucks. He's been given away several times in the last year, and the Leafs have absolutely zero use for him, and you've marked him as the guy you want in this trade.

Just let it go.

 

[ottomaddox]

I think this one you're gonna have to back off, for your own benefit. I think both teams laugh off this proposal, because neither team really wants what the other is offering.

Leipsic sucks. He's been given away several times in the last year, and the Leafs have absolutely zero use for him, and you've marked him as the guy you want in this trade.

Just let it go.

You need to be more articulate, otherwise no.

 

[joe dirte]

You


You need to be more articulate, otherwise no.

it's been explained already.

the Canucks aren't trading away draft picks or prospects while they are rebuilding.

The Leafs are actually using Johnsson on their third line (and he's looked pretty good the last few games). they wouldn't get rid of him, because they like him.

Leipsic sucks. there is no reason to believe that the Leafs would be interested in a guy they dumped recently. There is no reason any team with a stacked offense would be interested in a guy that has been on and off waivers quite a bit lately.

And whether you want to think differently or not, there is no value in a 26 year old fringe career AHLer, even if you think he might be able to play in the NHL. A good team isn't going to have a spot for him, and a bad team won't be interested in him as a future.

There is literally nothing about this whole thing that makes any little bit of lick of sense to anyone involved. It's just incredibly ill-conceived from the start.

Is that a little more articulate for you?

 

[ottomaddox]

it's been explained already.

the Canucks aren't trading away draft picks or prospects while they are rebuilding.

The Leafs are actually using Johnsson on their third line (and he's looked pretty good the last few games). they wouldn't get rid of him, because they like him.

Leipsic sucks. there is no reason to believe that the Leafs would be interested in a guy they dumped recently. There is no reason any team with a stacked offense would be interested in a guy that has been on and off waivers quite a bit lately.

And whether you want to think differently or not, there is no value in a 26 year old fringe career AHLer, even if you think he might be able to play in the NHL. A good team isn't going to have a spot for him, and a bad team won't be interested in him as a future.

There is literally nothing about this whole thing that makes any little bit of lick of sense to anyone involved. It's just incredibly ill-conceived from the start.

Is that a little more articulate for you?

There was no draft picks involved in my original proposal.

I think you're a little bit fickle when it comes to Leipsic. He was unprotected in the VGK expansion draft. VGK saw his value and selected him. VGK did their homework when it came to the expansion draft (an understatement). They knew they were getting a role player (industrious, defensive, and agitating). I also thought he did pretty good for them: on pace for 26 points. Johnsson will be lucky if he gets 26 this year on the 4th line with the Leafs.

This is who I believe TOR needs in a 4th liner. I don't think Johnsson is good at 4th line. Perhaps he can play on the 3rd line for VAN. Johnsson has nothing to offer in terms of agitating. He's just a victim of TOR's forward depth.
Leipsic is ideal for the 4th line for TOR.

There's no doubt Johnsson has a higher ceiling than Leipsic, so Vancouver will have to add Woo to the trade. TOR does their bit to even things out by adding Holl. Holl is another victim of TOR's depth at RHD (yes their D has improved - no Carrick and no Polak). Oziganov has found his way on the RHD #6 spot and Zaitsev has improved since last season. Holl made the final roster, but hasn't found his opportunity. Perhaps he can find it in VAN.

 

[THE Green Man]

There was no draft picks involved in my original proposal.

I think you're a little bit fickle when it comes to Leipsic. He was unprotected in the VGK expansion draft. VGK saw his value and selected him. VGK did their homework when it came to the expansion draft (an understatement). They knew they were getting a role player (industrious, defensive, and agitating). I also thought he did pretty good for them: on pace for 26 points. Johnsson will be lucky if he gets 26 this year on the 4th line with the Leafs.

This is who I believe TOR needs in a 4th liner. I don't think Johnsson is good at 4th line. Perhaps he can play on the 3rd line for VAN. Johnsson has nothing to offer in terms of agitating. He's just a victim of TOR's forward depth.
Leipsic is ideal for the 4th line for TOR.

There's no doubt Johnsson has a higher ceiling than Leipsic, so Vancouver will have to add Woo to the trade. TOR does their bit to even things out by adding Holl. Holl is another victim of TOR's depth at RHD (yes their D has improved - no Carrick and no Polak). Oziganov has found his way on the RHD #6 spot and Zaitsev has improved since last season. Holl made the final roster, but hasn't found his opportunity. Perhaps he can find it in VAN.

Once again Woo is not just a throw in for a minimal upgrade in our bottom 6. Woo is important to our future and Holl does not move the needle much for us at all to part with him. If you want Leipsic so badly you can have him for a pick or potentially he may hit waivers again soon as he has looked like trash this season.

 

[ottomaddox]

Once again Woo is not just a throw in for a minimal upgrade in our bottom 6. Woo is important to our future and Holl does not move the needle much for us at all to part with him. If you want Leipsic so badly you can have him for a pick or potentially he may hit waivers again soon as he has looked like trash this season.

Bump this thread when he finally goes on waivers and then we'll talk.

Both Johnsson and Leipsic are not bad players. They just need a change.

Woo is still unproven. He might never play an NHL game in his career. 2nd rounders are really hard to project.

 

[THE Green Man]

Bump this thread when he finally goes on waivers and then we'll talk.

Both Johnsson and Leipsic are not bad players. They just need a change.

Woo is still unproven. He might never play an NHL game in his career. 2nd rounders are really hard to project.

Yes but when we drafted him less than 6 months ago, the intention is that he WILL play in the NHL. Why would we give up on him in under 6 months for a minor upgrade to a team that won't be competing this year once we come back down to earth anyways.

 

[ottomaddox]

Yes but when we drafted him less than 6 months ago, the intention is that he WILL play in the NHL. Why would we give up on him in under 6 months for a minor upgrade to a team that won't be competing this year once we come back down to earth anyways.

I don't know. This kind of thing happens all the time.

Toronto traded Rask hoping that Raycroft was better and that Pogge was the future. It didn't work out, but perhaps JFJ thought it was worth the risk.

VAN's point of view is Johnsson is worth the risk.

 

[THE Green Man]

I don't know. This kind of thing happens all the time.

Toronto traded Rask hoping that Raycroft was better and that Pogge was the future. It didn't work out, but perhaps JFJ thought it was worth the risk.

VAN's point of view is Johnsson is worth the risk.

This team shouldn't be making moves like this anyways. If we over-achieve and somehow make the playoffs this year with the youth carrying us there then that's fine. But we aren't a contender at all no reason to make small upgrades by mortgaging future assets like Woo for minimal upgrades. A guy like Biega or MDZ at the deadline sure. But not a guy drafted less than 6 months ago. This is where you still seem misinformed. As many times as you are trying to back your OP, you have been told by many different posters that Woo is not a throw in at all. Pick a different add if you are so inclined, but the answer probably won't change much as Johnsson isn't what we should really be trading for at the moment.

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

Leipsic is a Leafs and Vegas cast off, he has no value and Woo is likely never going to make the NHL, we'll keep Johnsson thanks

If Woo is likely never gonna make the NHL, then you probably ought to just cut Durzi now. Or is he better cause the Leafs drafted him?

 

[canadianmagpie]

Bump this thread when he finally goes on waivers and then we'll talk.

Both Johnsson and Leipsic are not bad players. They just need a change.

Woo is still unproven. He might never play an NHL game in his career. 2nd rounders are really hard to project.

Then I guess you would have liked an Adam Cracknell or Emerson Etem for Travis Dermott trade in 2015? Because Dermott was drafted around the same position as Woo and would have been as unproven as Woo was while Cracknell and Etem were playing in the NHL. What's the difference between Dermott then and Woo now?

There's no guarantee that any player (even if they're drafted 1st overall) would play in the NHL, but to give up on a player 6 months after drafting him is insane (unless something has come out after he was drafted - to my knowledge, nothing of the sort has happened). The Canucks already have enough bottom 6/AHL forwards on their roster and should have no interest in Johnsson or Holl. The potential of Woo at the moment is worth more than Johnsson and Holl.

 

[ottomaddox]

Then I guess you would have liked an Adam Cracknell or Emerson Etem for Travis Dermott trade in 2015? Because Dermott was drafted around the same position as Woo and would have been as unproven as Woo was while Cracknell and Etem were playing in the NHL. What's the difference between Dermott then and Woo now?

There's no guarantee that any player (even if they're drafted 1st overall) would play in the NHL, but to give up on a player 6 months after drafting him is insane (unless something has come out after he was drafted - to my knowledge, nothing of the sort has happened). The Canucks already have enough bottom 6/AHL forwards on their roster and should have no interest in Johnsson or Holl. The potential of Woo at the moment is worth more than Johnsson and Holl.

That depends.

How good has Vancouver's drafting been outside the first round? If it's good then perhaps Woo will be an NHLer. If it's not then this pick might be a crap shoot. Either way that is not going to stop me from using him in a trade proposal.

Not too many months ago people on this board said: "You can't use Nylander in a trade proposal because ___________." That doesn't seem to be stopping Carolina.

 

[Halla]

Then I guess you would have liked an Adam Cracknell or Emerson Etem for Travis Dermott trade in 2015? Because Dermott was drafted around the same position as Woo and would have been as unproven as Woo was while Cracknell and Etem were playing in the NHL. What's the difference between Dermott then and Woo now?

There's no guarantee that any player (even if they're drafted 1st overall) would play in the NHL, but to give up on a player 6 months after drafting him is insane (unless something has come out after he was drafted - to my knowledge, nothing of the sort has happened). The Canucks already have enough bottom 6/AHL forwards on their roster and should have no interest in Johnsson or Holl. The potential of Woo at the moment is worth more than Johnsson and Holl.

Dermott is in the NHL. He is a regular. Approximately 1/4 2nd rders turn into regular NHLers

there is your difference. dermott has beaten the odds, woo hasnt

 

[canadianmagpie]

That depends.

How good has Vancouver's drafting been outside the first round? If it's good then perhaps Woo will be an NHLer. If it's not then this pick might be a crap shoot. Either way that is not going to stop me from using him in a trade proposal.

Not too many months ago people on this board said: "You can't use Nylander in a trade proposal because ___________." That doesn't seem to be stopping Carolina.

I have no issue with you using Woo in a trade proposal, but you suggested he would be the "add on" in the trade where I value him as the most valuable piece in the deal. Guys like Holl and Johnsson can be had for a late round draft pick (maybe a 3rd rounder at best), so when you add in Woo as the "add on", you're severely undervaluing an asset. Treat him as you would a 2nd round pick in a deep draft and you'll understand why Vancouver never does this trade.

Dermott is in the NHL. He is a regular. Approximately 1/4 2nd rders turn into regular NHLers

there is your difference. dermott has beaten the odds, woo hasnt

My point just flew over your head didn't it. In 2015, Dermott wasn't in the NHL.You expect Woo to make the Canucks at the first opportunity? It took Dermott until this year to become a regular for Toronto.

Sandin was a late 1st (only 8 spots separate him and Woo), would you do Sandin and Gauthier for Motte and Reid Boucher? Because that's a very similar deal to what the OP is offering. Motte and Boucher have proven themselves more in the NHL than Sandin has, obviously you should take that deal right?

 

[connormcmuffin]

If Woo is likely never gonna make the NHL, then you probably ought to just cut Durzi now. Or is he better cause the Leafs drafted him?

I doubt Durzi will amount to much more than get a preseason game will the Leafs one day. Hate drafting overagers.

Woo stock drop steadily in his draft year. He's nothing special and a complete long shot.

But calling out my apparent bias is totes adorbz, thanks pal.

 

[RandV]

I don't know. This kind of thing happens all the time.

Toronto traded Rask hoping that Raycroft was better and that Pogge was the future. It didn't work out, but perhaps JFJ thought it was worth the risk.

VAN's point of view is Johnsson is worth the risk.

That's really not the same thing. With the Rask/Raycroft thing Toronto had depth at the position with Rask/Pogge and thought Raycroft was a starting goalie now. They were trying to jump the time table, which to use a comparison with Vancouver/Benning would be like the Gustav Forsling for Adam Clendening trade.

For the suggestion of Vancouver trading Woo for Johnson, Woo is a fine prospect that still needs time and Johnson is a fine depth winger that is ready now but it just doesn't make sense because Vancouver is extremely shallow in D prospects but overflowing with depth players. You don't trade from a position of weakness to get something you already have in abundance.

 

[Boondock]

I doubt Durzi will amount to much more than get a preseason game will the Leafs one day. Hate drafting overagers.

Woo stock drop steadily in his draft year. He's nothing special and a complete long shot.

But calling out my apparent bias is totes adorbz, thanks pal.

Yet he's still on team Canada's radar, so it obviously didn't drop that much. The Paw Patrol board is probably a better spot for comments like totes adorbz

 

[connormcmuffin]

Yet he's still on team Canada's radar, so it obviously didn't drop that much. The Paw Patrol board is probably a better spot for comments like totes adorbz

A drafted player gets a try out invitation for WJC is his post draft year. Well put him in the HoF already.

HF is gold, keep it coming.

 

[Boondock]

A drafted player gets a try out invitation for WJC is his post draft year. Well put him in the HoF already.

HF is gold, keep it coming.

A drafted player gets a try out invitation for WJC is his post draft year. Well put him in the HoF already.

HF is gold, keep it coming.

There was a total of 12 D invited to the WJC summer camp and only 7 of those were 2000 birthdates- not sure how you developed your argument. But don't let facts get in the way of your unstable ramblings

 

[connormcmuffin]

There was a total of 12 D invited to the WJC summer camp and only 7 of those were 2000 birthdates- not sure how you developed your argument. But don't let facts get in the way of your unstable ramblings

So we can ignore scouts, him dropping in the rankings, his projections because he got a WJC invite whoooooooo cares, plenty of nobodies get team Canada invites, he's one of 12 invites on one country's team. He's not in the conversation of elite or near elite for his age group which you basically need to be considered a future NHLer.

He's a long shot at best, keep digging fren.

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

So we can ignore scouts, him dropping in the rankings, his projections because he got a WJC invite whoooooooo cares, plenty of nobodies get team Canada invites, he's one of 12 invites on one country's team. He's not in the conversation of elite or near elite for his age group which you basically need to be considered a future NHLer.

He's a long shot at best, keep digging fren.

So why even have a round outside the first? If non first rounders aren't ever going to be future NHLers then we should just stop after one I guess. He was a high second rounder taken not even six months ago. To say that he's a long shot at best is absolutely ridiculous. Nikita Kucherov was a second rounder. So was P.K. And my goodness, Jamie Benn and Johnny Gaudreau were even later than that, how the heck did they even allow those guys to play pro hockey?

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

So why even have a round outside the first? If non first rounders aren't ever going to be future NHLers then we should just stop after one I guess. He was a high second rounder taken not even six months ago. To say that he's a long shot at best is absolutely ridiculous. Nikita Kucherov was a second rounder. So was P.K. And my goodness, Jamie Benn and Johnny Gaudreau were even later than that, how the heck did they even allow those guys to play pro hockey?

And Johnsson wow. How is he still in hockey?

 

[93LEAFS]

So why even have a round outside the first? If non first rounders aren't ever going to be future NHLers then we should just stop after one I guess. He was a high second rounder taken not even six months ago. To say that he's a long shot at best is absolutely ridiculous. Nikita Kucherov was a second rounder. So was P.K. And my goodness, Jamie Benn and Johnny Gaudreau were even later than that, how the heck did they even allow those guys to play pro hockey?

You do realize the guys you listed are dramatic exceptions. Here is a list of every player taken between 31 and 45 between 2005 and 2012. I tiered them but also did it a year ago, pretty much everyone could debate the placement over 1 tier or so but it shouldn't be dramatic. Your odds of hitting on a 2nd rounder between 31 and 45 (this was done before a 31 was a first rounder) amounting to something of value (I'd say that is a top 9 forward or top 5 defender, or a fringe starter) is about 1 in 4, we got 24 players out of 105 who did that, but when you also factor in some of these guys were lost to waivers for nothing before they became something of value (so they didn't help the team that drafted them) its closer to 20%. So, I guess it depends if you think a 20% chance of being a viable NHLer that contributes a long-shot. I could add 2013 and maybe 2014 at this point, because after that its too early to even try to classify certain guys.


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