Confirmed with Link: [VAN/NJD] Canucks trade G Cory Schneider to Devils for 9th Overall Pick - Part III

[thefeebster]

An interesting tidbit from Friedman's 30 thoughts. We finally have a name to the rumoured package.

12. One of the biggest stories this week with by Cory Schneider's return to Vancouver. Could the Oilers have had him? I've always believed the price for the Canucks to send him there was very steep -- one rumoured package was a first-round pick, a second-round pick and 21-year-old defenceman Martin Marincin. That's a big ask, because teams are very careful about sending goalies to division opponents. Also, the Oilers had to know they had a great shot at Darnell Nurse, who they really liked.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports-content/ho...troversial-spin-o-rama-move-in-spotlight.html

 

[vancityluongo]

****. If the Flames were somehow stupid enough to have taken Nurse, I wonder if the Oilers would have been stupid enough to pass up on Monahan for Schneider.

 

[Wisp]

That's a ransom. no way the Oilers do that deal.

 

[timw33]

That's a ransom. no way the Oilers do that deal.

I'd imagine we could've picked up another 2nd round pick to trade down 2 spots and still gotten Horvat too.

 

[Wisp]

I'd imagine we could've picked up another 2nd round pick to trade down 2 spots and still gotten Horvat too.

The Flyers? They were surprisingly uninterested in both Schneider and Edler. They should have been front and center on both but weren't.

 

[Betamax*]

Article by The Province's Ben Kuzma looks in retrospect on the Schneider for Horvat trade:

Kuzma: Canucks should have received more for Schneider
All they got was Horvat, who’s playing in junior now

By Ben Kuzma, The Province October 7, 2013


source: http://www.theprovince.com/sports/h...+should+have+received+more/9008811/story.html

Excerpt:

The return on Schneider should have been tangible, at least a centre playing Tuesday and a prospect or pick instead of banking on the unknown.

The article also touches upon two potential destinations had the Canucks decided to move Schneider years ago instead to places like CBJ or T-Bay ... before they made move to solidfy their goaltending.

I would have also added the Flyers before they went the Bryz route ... a package involving someone like a Couturier and another good prospect or high draft pick.

 

[Proto]

Article by The Province's Ben Kuzma looks in retrospect on the Schneider for Horvat trade:

Kuzma: Canucks should have received more for Schneider
All they got was Horvat, who’s playing in junior now

By Ben Kuzma, The Province October 7, 2013


source: http://www.theprovince.com/sports/h...+should+have+received+more/9008811/story.html

Excerpt:



The article also touches upon two potential destinations had the Canucks decided to move Schneider years ago instead to places like CBJ or T-Bay ... before they made move to solidfy their goaltending.

I would have also added the Flyers before they went the Bryz route ... a package involving someone like a Couturier and another good prospect or high draft pick.

That article is so much brain hurt. He seems to imply they should have traded Schneider for Vermette a few seasons ago but complains they didn't get enough. He also suggests Horvat's upside is a 2nd liner. That might be a realistic projection, but I sure wouldn't say it's the top end the Canucks are hoping for. It's certainly not what Gillis thinks, or he wouldn't have been so high on Horvat.

As I have said a few times, the one thing I love about this trade is that Gillis was willing to let his entire legacy ride on it, whether that's fair or not. I have very mixed feelings on how this played out, but it's going to be a lot of fun to watch what happens (much like the Hodgson/Kassian swap).

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Personally I would have targeted Henrique from New Jersey, but that's just me. Not that I have any idea as to whether or not the Devils would have been willing to trade him.

 

[Betamax*]

As I have said a few times, the one thing I love about this trade is that Gillis was willing to let his entire legacy ride on it, whether that's fair or not. I have very mixed feelings on how this played out, but it's going to be a lot of fun to watch what happens (much like the Hodgson/Kassian swap).

I think GMMG really had no choice at the end of the day in the matter when the market to trade Bobby Lu essentially disappeared like a mirage you might see in the desert.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

I don't get the big deal on the offer the Canucks wanted from the Oilers.

It's, essentially, Schneider for Nurse, Zykov and Marincin.

Nurse I think is a 4th/5th D-man in the long-run. Marincin is a PP specialist. Zykov is interesting, but while he has lit-up the QMJHL he has been invisible in international competition.

 

[Tiranis]

Personally I would have targeted Henrique from New Jersey, but that's just me. Not that I have any idea as to whether or not the Devils would have been willing to trade him.

Wow... I don't even know what to say to that. You complained constantly about Horvat vs Nichushkin and your answer is Henrique? Horvat will absolutely be better than Henrique. No doubt in my mind about that.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

I don't get the big deal on the offer the Canucks wanted from the Oilers.

It's, essentially, Schneider for Nurse, Zykov and Marincin.

Nurse I think is a 4th/5th D-man in the long-run. Marincin is a PP specialist. Zykov is interesting, but while he has lit-up the QMJHL he has been invisible in international competition.

Personally I'd prefer taking Ristolainen to Nurse. Although I do think both will be better than a 4/5th defenseman.

I do think a potential top-pairing Dman + potential top-6 winger + potential top-4 defenseman has more value than a potential top-6 centre.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Isn't Henrique a 2way 2nd liner?

 

[Betamax*]

Wow... I don't even know what to say to that. You complained constantly about Horvat vs Nichushkin and your answer is Henrique? Horvat will absolutely be better than Henrique. No doubt in my mind about that.

How would a Horvat, IYO, compare to a Couturier who seem to be share a similar skill set?

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Wow... I don't even know what to say to that. You complained constantly about Horvat vs Nichushkin and your answer is Henrique? Horvat will absolutely be better than Henrique. No doubt in my mind about that.

Well for one thing Henrique is contributing now, which obviously has more value to a team in win-now mode than someone who may or may not be as good as Henrique 3-4 years down the road.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

Personally I'd prefer taking Ristolainen to Nurse. Although I do think both will be better than a 4/5th defenseman.

I do think a potential top-pairing Dman + potential top-6 winger + potential top-4 defenseman has more value than a potential top-6 centre.

Not saying who the Nucks would/should have picked in those 2 spots... just saying I don't see why the value is so insane to completely fix Edmonton's goalie issue...

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Isn't Henrique a 2way 2nd liner?

Yes, and he's a great player to have. While obviously I would prefer to trade Schneider for someone like Rick Nash or Evander Kane(since I know where this is going) those players simply wouldn't be made available for Schneider.

However, this thread is on the trade itself. Hopefully the other discussion can be kept to the other thread.

 

[Ernie]

And if Gillis had have done what he's suggesting, Kuzma would have complained that Gillis didn't do anything to land an impact player for Schneider.

 

[Betamax*]

And if Gillis had have done what he's suggesting, Kuzma would have complained that Gillis didn't do anything to land an impact player for Schneider.

Kuzma was suggesting that the the more optimal time to move The Cory in retrospect was several years earlier. If they could have traded for someone like a Couturier in 2012 for example ... then the domino effect would have meant that they would have someone that could help the team now and be that 3rd line center that has top 6 upside and could play tough defensive minutes, freeing a Kesler to play a more offensive role and on occasion moving him up to play with the Sedins, rather than wait until Horvat is ready to help the team which won't occur until next season at the earliest ... with the exception that the Canucks go on some huge Playoffs run this season and his junior season is completed and he somehow plays some games for the team.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Wow... I don't even know what to say to that. You complained constantly about Horvat vs Nichushkin and your answer is Henrique? Horvat will absolutely be better than Henrique. No doubt in my mind about that.

Yep. I'm pretty high on Horvat, though.

 

[deckercky]

Kuzma was suggesting that the the more optimal time to move The Cory in retrospect was several years earlier. If they could have traded for someone like a Couturier in 2012 for example ... then the domino effect would have meant that they would have someone that could help the team now and be that 3rd line center that has top 6 upside and could play tough defensive minutes, freeing a Kesler to play a more offensive role and on occasion moving him up to play with the Sedins, rather than wait until Horvat is ready to help the team which won't occur until next season at the earliest ... with the exception that the Canucks go on some huge Playoffs run this season and his junior season is completed and he somehow plays some games for the team.

Kuzma's examples were flawed. Phille didn't have Couturier when they didn't have Bryzgalov back then. Bryzgalov was signed the day before the draft, and Couturier wasn't expected to fall that far.

Also, maybe that much value wasn't being offered back then.

Overall, it's just revisionist history no worse than looking 3 years back and saying "if only we'd drafted that player that went a round later but wasn't ranked nearly as highly by anyone at the time."

 

[SighReally]

Kuzma was suggesting that the the more optimal time to move The Cory in retrospect was several years earlier. If they could have traded for someone like a Couturier in 2012 for example ... then the domino effect would have meant that they would have someone that could help the team now and be that 3rd line center that has top 6 upside and could play tough defensive minutes, freeing a Kesler to play a more offensive role and on occasion moving him up to play with the Sedins, rather than wait until Horvat is ready to help the team which won't occur until next season at the earliest ... with the exception that the Canucks go on some huge Playoffs run this season and his junior season is completed and he somehow plays some games for the team.

Philadelphia isn't going to trade Couturier for Schneider. We were only able to get the 9th pick from New Jersey who needs a goaltender; do you honestly think Philadelphia would give of their stud center for Schneider? Even back in 2012, Schneider was still an unknown commodity especially since he hadn't actually played a starting role yet while Couturier just got matched in the playoffs against Malkin head to head and basically won the match up. The price starts with Edler and up. This is so ridiculously unrealistic.

 

[Betamax*]

Kuzma's examples were flawed. Phille didn't have Couturier when they didn't have Bryzgalov back then. Bryzgalov was signed the day before the draft, and Couturier wasn't expected to fall that far.

To be fair to Kuzma ... the Flyers example was mine. There was about a week gap when the Canucks Playoffs were over before they (The Flyers) decided to go huge on Bryz. But Botchford, IIRC, the Flyers inquired with the Canucks about Schneider and the Canucks countered with a Giroux that they wanted back.

If instead the Canucks procured a 1st (which turned into a Couturier) and another prospect or pick it would have been a much more palatable sell to the fanbase since The Cory hadn't establish himself as a number one and usurp Bobby Lu as the better goalie in the previous Coaching Staff and Hockey Management before they decided to trade him instead.

Also, maybe that much value wasn't being offered back then.

Overall, it's just revisionist history no worse than looking 3 years back and saying "if only we'd drafted that player that went a round later but wasn't ranked nearly as highly by anyone at the time."

That's also possible ... But with pressure of resolving the issue, and Bobby Lu being virtually untradeable and having two goalies and a declining cap this upcoming season, his trade value, one could, argue was negatively affected as well. Was he worth more than or now, while facing those issues ... that's debatable.

I'm pretty sure in hindsight, the Flyers would have traded that 1st that turned into Couturier and another good prospect or pick for The Cory rather than putting their money on Bryz ...

 

[Pip]

To be fair to Kuzma ... the Flyers example was mine. There was about a week gap when the Canucks Playoffs were over before they (The Flyers) decided to go huge on Bryz. But Botchford, IIRC, the Flyers inquired with the Canucks about Schneider and the Canucks countered with a Giroux that they wanted back.

If instead the Canucks procured a 1st (which turned into a Couturier) and another prospect or pick it would have been a much more palatable sell to the fanbase since The Cory hadn't establish himself as a number one and usurp Bobby Lu as the better goalie in the previous Coaching Staff and Hockey Management before they decided to trade him instead.

Since Schneider hadn't established himself, what would make you think the Flyers would give Couts for him? Espcially Couturier +. His value was likely around what Bernier got

 

[Betamax*]

Since Schneider hadn't established himself, what would make you think the Flyers would give Couts for him? Espcially Couturier +. His value was likely around what Bernier got

What did the Avs give up in the trade for Semyon Varlamov back in Jul 1, 2011?

Do you believe during the middle of 2011, Varlamov had greater trade value then The Cory?

BTW, in 2011, it was the 8th overall draft pick, and not Couts per se.