Confirmed with Link: [VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part 2

[417]

So the solution is to be manhandled by skill for 10 minutes with Murray on the ice then go back to them sitting on Price?

That's insane logic.

For what Murray does well to actually help they need to be attached to a decent player. Otherwise they just find another way to beat you.

Not sure where you got that...I didn't say that's the solution

Hopefully the solution eventuall comes from within with the substraction of Murray and the addition of Drewiskie or Tinordi or Pateryn or someone else more effective via trade.

I don't think Diaz's presence prevented the Habs from being mandhandled by skill...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You cannot honesltly say that Murray NOW is worse than Murray from two months ago. The guy had no training camp and was playing one game every 2 or 3, with Bouillon in and out,too.

Stats don't tell the whole story. I am pretty sure the other players on the ice and Price feel more secure with Murray than with Diaz.

Except when Murray is screening Price on his own without anyone else around right? We've seen that happen a few times...

 

[habitue*]

Except when Murray is screening Price on his own without anyone else around right? We've seen that happen a few times...

You're always focusing on the guys you hate, don't you ?

Is the team winning or not ? That should be the bottom line.

And in the last 5 games - even if they lost a couple - they have allowed 5 goals in five games. Find me another team that was that good ine their last five games.

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

Not sure where you got that...I didn't say that's the solution

Hopefully the solution eventuall comes from within with the substraction of Murray and the addition of Drewiskie or Tinordi or Pateryn or someone else more effective via trade.

I don't think Diaz's presence prevented the Habs from being mandhandled by skill...

You were making a point about team balance. Murray can't heartbreak balance because he isn't good enough to make use of what skills he has.


For Diaz helping against being manhandled by skill, well compare what happened when he was on the ice. Not a lot of shots or goals. People's only complaints were about being soft, that he can play positional defense decently has been established.

 

[Nitehowl]

So by acquiring a smattering of 4th-liners and depth defenseman Bergevin turned a 28th-place team into a 4th-place team?

If signing a Bouillon and a good 4th-liner/bordline 3rd-liner in Prust, and Colby Armstrong was all it takes to turn a bad team into a good team you wouldn't see infinite rebuilds like Edmonton, Atlanta, Florida, the Islanders, Wirtz's Chicago, etc.

So instead of argueing against everyone ...what would you have done with the Habs roster since MB took over ??

 

[habdynasty]

Like Diaz this thread is going on ignore. The quicker I forget about the Swiss miss the better , what a wimp.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Of the players you mentioned...only Price/Subban/Pacioretty are of any real threat to another team

First, this is mostly BS. Secondly in the case where it's true (Eller) it's because our coach if a freaking moron.

Plekanec is a nice player, but terribly overrated by Habs fans

He's a solid two way guy with passing skills.

Markov, I consider myself to be as big a fan as there is...but he's a shadow of his former self and is counted on way too much on this team

Declining or not, the transition game is gone. Even Subban looks lost lately.

Galchenyuk/Gallagher are too inexperienced to be impact players right now, though this is where I would agree that the coaching staff, shld do a better job of using them, especially Galchenyuk. There's absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be playing with Pacioretty...he's by far this teams most skilled forward

BS on this. Both Gallagher and Galchenyuk are great players and were producing very well with Eller. Gallagher in particular creates a lot more offense than his points would suggest.

Eller...not quite sure what to think of him, but I don't think he'll ever be more than a quality 3rd line center, but impact player? nah...

He can be a solid number 2 center with the right linemates. He's not good enough to put up numbers with Prust, Parros, Bourque, White or whatever other grinder MT wants to put with him.

The coaching staff has squeezed out all it can out of this roster..what we've seen from the Habs since their hot run in November or December, is exactly what the Habs are..and average team

The coaching staff has done an atrocious job with this roster. At the start of the year we had a couple of hot lines with Max out. Then we decided (for no reason) to be a grinding team and switched everything aroudn to get DD (who shouldn't be on the roster) going. We shelter lesser players like Murray, Bouillion and DD and then wonder why were at the bottom of Goals For and slip in the standings.

If Murray is a defensive blueliner for example, why do we keep giving him offensive zone starts? Makes zero sense. Why did we keep putting Bouillion on the PP? Why the **** do we have DD with Max?

Lines should be something like:

Max Plek Gionta
EGG
Bournival Briere Prust
Grinder line

Instead everything is inside out...

Murray is on the ice for just over 3 mins per period at even strenght lol

Why you feel it necessary or justifiable to put all of the Habs problems on a player who is so insignificant in the grand scheme of things, I have no clue.

As for Beaulieu playing RD...it's not that uncommon for LD to play RD in the NHL, matter of fact, i'm pretty sure Beaulieu's done it quite a bit in the AHL. In fact, it would be pretty dumb to ask a guy who's already got mobility issues (and that's putting it nicely) to play RD to accommodate a rookie who should be used to playing both sides (and who might have too depending on where this defense goes over the next few years).

Again...I blows my mind that Douglas Murray is such a topic of conversation with this team...talk about missing the point.

He's not the problem on this team...this is akin to whining about a crack in a car's windshield when there's a crack in the engine block.

He's the epitome of what's wrong with this team. There's nothing wrong with this roster that couldn't be fixed with a new coach. Ridiculous to bench (and then trade) Diaz when we've got Murray out there....

YES we have big holes on this team. But our coaching staff is making things worse not better.

 

[417]

Obviously. They want to exploit the vulnerable guy. Still, you'd expect him to do better than the average 6th D-man if it's supposed to be a strength of his.



*eyes Diaz's heat map* Sure looks like a lot less crease shots there. Hmm.

Again...you're attributing success and failure of 6 guys on the ice, solely to ONE individual.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You're always focusing on the guys you hate, don't you ?

I don't hate any players. I care about the team.

The name on the front of the jersey is more important than the name on the back. Apologists forget this sometimes.

Is the team winning or not ? That should be the bottom line.

Are you for real? Have you watched us for the past two or three months? You actually think we've played well? You think that us being almost dead last in scoring is an indication of things going well?

And NO we haven't been winning btw. We've been treading water. And that's mostly due to Carey Price standing on his head.

And in the last 5 games - even if they lost a couple - they have allowed 5 goals in five games. Find me another team that was that good ine their last five games.

This is the dumbest argument I've read on here for a while now. Congratulations.

The last five games we've seen Price standing on his head and ZERO in the way of offense most of the time. BTW, how about the last 10 games? How about the embarrassments with Ottawa and Washington where our goalie is the only guy to have shown up?

WAKE UP!

 

[HankyZetts]

I definitely remember that Winnipeg geme, where Murray was hard-matched against Byfuglien...and got dominated. If those big guys are a problem, then Murray would appear to not be a very good solution.

Against Boston, the Beaulieu-Murray pairing was the least used against Lucic and Chara. It was not a significant matchup throughout the game.

But you know exactly what I'm talking about, right? You saw Murray winning those battles every single time I did, right?

Real life is not NHL '14. In real life, you don't actually need an OFD and a DFD on every pairing to max out your chemistry meter. You can make a pairing of two "puck-movers" and have it work very well -- remember the Markov-Subban pairing?

Where did I ever say that? Apart from Murray, every D-man we have can move the puck fairly well, at least. I said that Murray is a specialist, because at this point that's what he is. He provides a physical presence, keeps opponents honest, wins battles and pks. The rest of the defense is better than Diaz, and that's why he couldn't stay in the lineup. imo.

Nevermind that Murray is actually not good at defense in the first place, so calling him a "defensive defenseman" is already a bit of a stretch. Conversely, a lot of puck-movers are strong at positional defense, a far more important skill than simple size.

Called him a specialist although he is certainly a DFD if anything. No matter how true it is that his defensive acumen is a shadow of what it once was.

Wrong...the team struggles with possesion no matter who is on the ice.

This is what I've been saying! how many players on our team can you confidently say possess vision? We can't control the puck, when we can't see the ice! We have guys who can see the ice, but can't make a play, and guys that can make a play, but can't see the ice... Lol

 

[Kriss E]

Again...you're attributing success and failure of 6 guys on the ice, solely to ONE individual.

How you fail to even understand this after so many pages of discussion makes me believe you just are too stubborn to see what's been constantly repeated.

People are using this Murray vs Diaz example to show you how management doesn't appear to know what they're doing. This is one of many example. People have brought up lines, roles, usage, on top of managerial decisions (like signing Murray, Briere and Parros) but you categorically dismiss all of that because you're too narrow minded.

I don't understand the way you are discussing things in this thread, you're usually a pretty good poster. But you sound like a brand new HF poster on this that is defending anything.

For crying out loud, you refuse to even admit that Diaz in is better than Murray out!!

 

[habitue*]

I don't hate any players. I care about the team.

The name on the front of the jersey is more important than the name on the back. Apologists forget this sometimes.

Are you for real? Have you watched us for the past two or three months? You actually think we've played well? You think that us being almost dead last in scoring is an indication of things?

And NO we haven't been winning btw. We've been treading water. And that's mostly due to Carey Price standing on his head.

This is the dumbest argument I've read on here for a while now. Congratulations.

The last five games we've seen Price standing on his head and ZERO in the way of offense most of the time. BTW, how about the last 10 games? How about the embarrassments with Ottawa and Washington where our goalie is the only guy to have shown up?

WAKE UP!

You are always seing the negative side of things, and you're especially pointing fingers at very specific players. Desharnais and Murray are you two spagegoats. It's always their fault. Or Therrien and Bergevin, two "idiots" that should direct and manage pee-wee teams in Chibougamau.



I know like everyone else here that this team is average at best. They can win the odd games against some super power like Chicago and Boston and lose the next ones against the bottom feeders.

Price played well in the last five games - except vs Winnipeg - and that's great. he is part of this team and he is paid to block shots. But the team as a whole is playing better and safer all around.

You can throw any negative adjectives towards me . I don't care.

Let's be gentlemen and put each other on our own IGNORE list.

Deal ?

 

[MathMan]

Again...you're attributing success and failure of 6 guys on the ice, solely to ONE individual.

So, what were the other guys doing with Diaz that they're not doing with Murray that causes so many fewer crease shots, and why aren't they doing it with Murray?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You are always seing the negative side of things, and you're especially pointing fingers at very specific players. Desharnais and Murray are you two spagegoats. It's always their fault. Or Therrien and Bergevin, two "idiots" that should direct and manage pee-wee teams in Chibougamau.

I know like everyone else here that this team is average at best. They can win the odd games against some super power like Chicago and Boston and lose the next ones against the bottom feeders.

Price played well in the last five games - except vs Winnipeg - and that's great. he is part of this team and he is paid to block shots. But the team as a whole is playing better and safer all around.

You can throw any negative adjectives towards me . I don't care.

Let's be gentlemen and put each other on our own IGNORE list.

Deal ?

I'm not going to insult you personally. But if you say something stupid, I'm calling you on it.

As for me being negative.... there's lots to be negative about.

13 goals in our last 8 games, at least one is an empty net. Basically Price has to get a shutout or we lose. And you think that we're playing well? How the hell am I supposed to agree with you on this when it's so clearly wrong?

 

[Kriss E]

People defend coach's decision like Murray over Diaz but then wonder why we suck..

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

Lets fact check one of these, its the other 4 guys on the ice claims, that Murray plays disproporitonately with the bottom lines so thats a big reason why there is no scoring when he plays.

The Habs have typically used Desharnais and Plekanec as the centers of their top two lines this season.

Percentage of minutes played with Desharnais and Plekanec for Murray is 48%, 27% with Desharnais (the most offensively orientated) and 21% with Plekanec.

For Diaz its 53% with the two of them, 25% with Desharnais, 29% with Plekanec. Basically a ~11% bias toward those two and its entirely towards the more defensive Plekanec rather than the offensive Desharnais. This wasn't a major factor.

Its simply not a big enough factor to have that kind of effect. This is typical for forward/defenseman combinations, it not common to see a big spread in a defenseman's forward linemates.

That's why its not often kosher to explain a big difference in defenseman performance within a team to the forwards. Its really rare for there to be a big linemate factor other than their defensive partners.

 

[habitue*]

People defend coach's decision like Murray over Diaz but then wonder why we suck..

Because we were sucking with Diaz in the line up, too.

 

[Sorinth]

Because I don't actually think the true identities of teams begin to reveal themselves until after xmas...There's a big difference between cold & hot streaks, and season trends.

Why? What's the difference between a team starts on a hot streak and finish the year poorly and a team that starts poorly and finishes on a hot streak. They're both just hot streaks why is one the team revealing itself and the other something that should be discarded? If you want to separate the hot/cold streaks from the true strength of a team you shouldn't focus on the most recent data but all the relevant data.

As for what makes Habs possesion game unsustainable...well they're simply not built for him. Any strong possesion team is strong down the middle, and the Habs are very weak down the middle. This is a critical flaw within the team that until it is fixed, they will never be able to play a possesion game that fans would like them to play.

Is Chicago a strong possession team? And if so how do you explain Handzus being their 2nd line center when they win the cup? It's PMD that dictate whether you can play a puck possession game more so then centers. And we have 2 of the best PMD in the league, and had a decent bottom pairing one.

Also, I find it ridiculous to think that the coaching staff would intentionally sabotage the team by going away from what made them successful to play a style that doesn't make them successful. Teams have just adjusted to Habs style, early in the year, teams weren't as aggressive on Habs dmen on the forecheck and they'd allow them to have free exits out of their zone, which is why when Subban/Markov were paired up early, they were just shredding teams.

It's not intentional sabotage it's just incompetence.

If teams forecheck hard against good PMD then they get burnt because that D makes a tape to tape pass which causes an odd man rush. Teams didn't forecheck Subban/Markov because they were afraid to get caught. That's why a guy like Diaz can have better GA numbers than someone like Murray. Murray might be better at certain defensive tasks but teams can forecheck him hard and keep possession in the zone because he can't get it out, and when he does it's off the glass and doesn't lead to an odd man rush. If you forecheck Diaz hard when he has the puck you're going to give up a lot more odd man rushes.

But like I said earlier, at some point after enough games...teams adjust, which is why the coaching staff had to split up Markov/Subban because they were getting killed with no other puck movers on their other pairs.

This has nothing to do with going back to the old philosophy...nothing has changed, they're just not as effective as they used to be.

Have teams adjusted to our current setup? And if so doesn't that imply we should break up the DD line because teams have adjusted to it?

 

[MathMan]

Since the month of December, the Habs have been 15-12-3, good for an 85-point pace. That's actually a pretty generous cutoff because they had 4 games left to go in their infamous 10-game point streak. If you put the cutoff at that infamous Los Angeles blowout, you're looking at a 11-12-3 stretch over 26 games... a 79-point pace. And that wasn't bad luck; with the occasional exception, they were outplayed throughout and were full value for the streak.

For reference, 85 points is about 20th in the league, and 79 is 25th.

So it's been a while since the team's been winning, and I happen to think the roster is better than 85 points, let alone 79.

 

[Habs]

I've counted all the cliches in this thread, we are upto 256.

 

[Kriss E]

Because we were sucking with Diaz in the line up, too.

Yes, because management has been taking some pretty stupid decisions (like Murray in vs Diaz out) for quite some time now.

 

[habitue*]

Yes, because management has been taking some pretty stupid decisions (like Murray in vs Diaz out) for quite some time now.

Before Beaulieu call-up, they were both - Murray and Diaz - in the line up.

I really don't think Diaz has been or would had been the difference maker.

But having a better RW on our fourth line might help way more down the road.

 

[Nitehowl]

Yeah, turris isn't better than Pleks. Sorry.

Macarthur's production in points is pretty irrelavant. What matters is that he's an above average middle 6er who can play really tough minutes and still come out ahead. His production would no doubt have been worse due to therrien's ineptitude, but we'd still have a better roster, that's indisputable.

As for what this board thinks, I don't really give a ****. If you're basing your opinions on the habs community, you're in trouble. And considering Murray is getting 1.5mil and gilbert, an infinitely more useful defenseman is getting 900k, nearly league minimum, I don't think being highest bidder would have cost us more than crankshaft. If anything, we'd have saved cap and been way better. A tragedy, for sure. Same thing with macarthur and briere.

But now we'll just go back to your ' there's no way we can know for sure they would have come here' argument.

And why didn't Torona make an effort to keep him ? Surely if he was that hot a commodity they would have signed him

 

[Rutabaga]

I didnt post very much lately...but i am really amazed.

I can understand that on a board like this one, a large number of various ways to think about hockey are represented.
To each his own. Fine.

But, right now, there is nothing about preference or belief.

If you think, after watching them, that Murray is better than Diaz, you are blinded by something. Probably by a set of thoughts that were common 30 years ago.

If the management think, after watching and analyzing the situation with the technical staff and the means they have, that Murray is NHL-material, then the management is absolutely clueless. Which after several moves made during the last months, is not something far-fetched.
Giving away a decent player, an especially, a efficient one (which is the only thing that should matter, instead of size, grit or physicality), because you feel forced to keep that said player in the lineup...that's simply horrible.


When i look at the moves and the decisions made since Molson is the owner and Bergevin is in the place...i already said this months ago (even before the successful campaign of last year), but with this kind of mentality and gestion, the team is not going to win anything for a very long time.
They may get lucky mostly because Timmins is really great and because they still have a core delivered to them on which they havent made major modifications, but that's a path followed only by catastrophic teams throughout the years.


This is a staff full of dinosaurs that are unable to adapt.

 

[MathMan]

And why didn't Torona make an effort to keep him ? Surely if he was that hot a commodity they would have signed him

Toronto's front office is rather prone to, ah, strange decisions.