I don't want to pick one.
I'll go to http://www.extraskater.com/ and check out their corsi and fenwick stats.
Guess what? Subban's better.
Confirmed with Link: [VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part 2
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I don't want to pick one.
I'll go to http://www.extraskater.com/ and check out their corsi and fenwick stats.
Guess what? Subban's better.
The team's best even strength player, PK Subban, is a +4...
Yet we expect a player who's not particularly adept defensively, and certainly has never been offensively, to be a + player???
Really????
Here's some news...the Habs are one of the WORST even strength teams in the NHL
Why you expect Murray to stand apart from those number....I have no clue
Apparently some of you think Murray was signed to be a shutdown dman who also contributes points at even strength
Good to know...it explains a lot
Ground breaking news, a number one dman is better than a number 6 one
Who would have thought?
DAChampion
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Subban is a far better DMan. Without a doubt.
However, games are won or lost based on the number of GOALS scored and the number of GOALS given up.
Teams are scoring goals against us at the same rate regardless of whether PK Subban or Douglas Murray is on the ice.
That's the stat that counts and its the stat that matters in the standings. No team has won a Fenwick Cup.
Murray is just as bad or just as good on Defense with regard to preventing goals as PK Subban is.
Reality trumps perception.
So you needed Corsi and Fenwick stats to know that PK Subban is better than Douglas Murray?
Jeez
JohnLennon
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To be fair, Therrien did change his system from last year. In my opinion it is obvious. He used the puck-side attack way more, on both ends of the ice. Three players on the puck in our own zone, one ready for the breakout pass and the other covering the net area.
This season, we are playing much more of a perimeter defense, which is why players like Moen and Gorges are having much better seasons. They are suited for shot blocking and positional play. It's not a bad thing, I just think with the size, speed and quick transition game of our team, the high risk/high reward style of puck-side attack better suits our team as opposed to our current style.
Not really happy with our current style, but I'm sure Michel Therrien knows much more than I do when it comes to running a team. I just don't necessarily agree with it from what I've seen over the past two months.
Lafleurs Guy
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Who said it was intentional?
Was he talking about us being a grinding team last year? No. Did we hear it at the beginning of this year? No. But somewhere along the way he said he wanted us to be a grinding team. We saw dump and chase come into the games and our offense started tanking.
It's come to the point now that Subban goes into the offensive zone with the puck and there's nobody there to take a pass. That's not lack of talent dude, it's lack of any kind of coherent system.
Be honest, do you think Subban looks like the same player now? Do you think he suddenly forgot how to play hockey? Or is his coach basically "coaching" the skill out of his game? The team is very, very screwed up right now. A coaching change can't come soon enough.
There's enough talent on this team to be middle of the pack offensively at the very least. And a good coach could have us in the top ten. Hell, MT had us there last season. Even if you believe it was a fluke there's no way we should be dropping the way we are. New lines would not be "rearranging the chairs on the Titanic" dude... It is a desperately needed change for a team that's playing well below it's capabilities.
I don't expect a team as poor as the Habs are at even strength, to have anyone with a good +/-...much less a player as limited as Murray
JohnLennon
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I agree, they looked like a good line last game. I've always liked White and if Weise can play as he did more often than not, I'm fine with this trade.
Obviously he is hated by the same set of posters who do not see the value in having a player bigger than the NHL average. So much so that Raphael Diaz has been elevated to superstar status.....all the while not scoring a single goal as a Hab.
In other words, same as it ever was.
Haha! I just don't really agree with the timing of the trade, because Diaz was at a lower value.
And that statistic is straight from Corsi.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...32+33+34+45+46+63+67+21+22+23+24+25+26+27+28#
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...32+33+34+45+46+63+67+21+22+23+24+25+26+27+28#
Honestly LG...I really don't have or pretend to have the capacity to understand hockey systems and/or how they're applied, so if you say he's changed his system...i'll take your word for it
As for Subban...no, I don't think he looks like the same player, then again, everyone outside of Price looks like crap right now
But I also don't think this team is very good...so I'm not sure if it's just coaching or just the natural course of things
I tend to think its the latter...
Its called offsides.
There was an adjustment made in last night's game compared to the one where Subban simply went on a skate with the puck only to be met by a couple of defenders and a turnover.
Last night, Subban passed the puck before he reached the blue line. It made for a better entry and maintained possession.
Puck patience. It makes Subban look even better.
Thanks for breaking down the systems you think they've been employing, very useful
As for the offensive potential on this team...honestly, outside Pacioretty, I don't see a single forward on this team who right now is capable of putting up at least 60pts or 30 goals
Galchenyuk eventually will be there...but outside of MP, i'm sorry, I just don't see it
I've said it a few times...but this team is very mediocre
Like someone said earlier, Diaz's value was not going to climb any higher whether now or later. Teams are not racing to get a smallish DMan who finally scored a goal after 45 games to meet their needs at the deadline.
It does, however, bring a player in who will give Bergevin the option to deal Bourque or Moen or both since Weise is younger and has size.
As usual, trades are great entertainment on this board.
DAChampion
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Like someone said earlier, Diaz's value was not going to climb any higher whether now or later. Teams are not racing to get a smallish DMan who finally scored a goal after 45 games to meet their needs at the deadline.
It does, however, bring a player in who will give Bergevin the option to deal Bourque or Moen or both since Weise is younger and has size.
As usual, trades are great entertainment on this board.
I'm surprised you want Moen gone.
The way to move a team from mediocre to better is to change the approach to the game.
We are not aggressive on the forecheck. Change it. It worked last season when we were more aggressive.
We are not aggressive on defense in our D Zone. Too many players standing still. Change it. It worked last season when we were aggressive and it is the bread and butter for the Bruins.
We are mediocre because we are not aggressive. Passive teams rarely make an impact in the NHL.
I dont want Moen gone. I said that having Weise gives Bergevin more options to trade with.
I would prefer Bourque gone. If Weise maintains his compete level like last night, he would actually look good on the line with Eller and Galchenyuk. He definitely would create space.
Lafleurs Guy
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In the offseason MB signed Briere, Murray and Parros. Briere has been underused and the other two have actually had a negative impact.
No factual basis?
29th in 5 on 5 scoring. 24th in GF overall (and dropping) 5th overall last year.
A PP that has fallen from 1st to 15th.
A team that's in the Wildcard spot behind the Leafs.
A Norris winning blueliner who's play has fallen off dramatically.
Not a single player who has improved from last season - apart from maybe Carey Price.
There's reason to criticize him... heavily for this. Those moves didn't help us (I'd argue they hurt us) and the team has regressed. We can give him praise for bringing in a new goalie coach but even there Price has been pretty good for a while now anyway. Apart from this, what has he done this year that's been positive? Can you tell us?
Nobody has a problem with the previous season Grant. MB - and MT for that matter - were praised for their work, and deservedly so.
This season though is a different matter.
Some fair criticism in here. I'll only speak for myself though...
Weise was never the problem for me. Neither was dealing away Diaz. What didn't make sense was keeping Murray in the lineup and benching (and then trading) Diaz. The vast majority of posters who were upset with this move saw it the same way. Some (Ohashi being a prominent one) didn't like the return.
I know nothing of the player we got back. Truth be told it's a minor deal and Diaz was going anyway. What IS of concern to me is that MB didn't see Diaz as being a better option than Murray. Doug Murray (and Bouillion for that matter) should not be in the lineup. Period. THAT's what I see as being scary here. If our GM can't see this... then we're in trouble.
Like everyone here, I'll sit and wait and see what MB does (we don't have any other choice) and make my judgements then. But I'm not impressed with what I've seen so far and many feel the same way. I don't see why you'd be upset about this.
Some of that should be attributed to the higher risk reward style Subban was playing for the 1st 20 games or so (when the Habs were doing quite well, it was paying off big time offensively) before the November system switch. When they were doing well they had a high event offensive pairing in Markov-Subban to kick butts and take names and a very low event defensive pairing in Gorges-Diaz that was losing, but losing very slowly in difficult minutes to set up the all-world talent to do their thing. Then they had a 3rd pairing that was usually awful, Boullion being a major factor in that. People complained how soft they were, just like the season before, but it worked.
Then later around the time they were trying to incorperate Murray and Emelin into the lineup and Pacioretty was hurt for a while they switched it all up and it didn't work at all. Thing was they soon Price went on God mode for a stretch of games and the team's collapse in puck possession and ES offense was ignored.
There was a large gap between the two of them in goals given up. This has evaporated as Subban has been been effected pretty badly by the total system collapse experienced over the last couple months. That stretch of three games where the team bottomed out he went 7 against and 0 on ES for completely changed the numbers.
In any event I doubt our positions are all that far apart. A team could survive a Murray if they were playing a good style and the problem was localized to just him. But its far, far worse than that.
That's why this fight is only somewhat about trading Diaz. Its not the trade, its the trade as a symptom that the team isn't really thinking about the puck possession problem in terms that make any sense. Murray is a notable symptom of a wider problem. The same problem we basically agree on that they've stopped focusing on puck possession for some reason and its costing them dearly.
For 417's question of why, well my theory is Therrien panicked and reverted to what he knew at some point. His NHL teams have been consistently awful at shot differential in his career and tend to get massively better when he leaves. The Pittsburgh cup win is the most famous case, but it also happened in his first MTL stint when shot differential cratered after he replaced Vigneault and immediately recovered when Julien took his job (those two demonstrated they could coach elsewhere, one of the awful decisions Gainey made that doesn't get play is for firing Julien for not playing Theodore, only to trade Theodore a couple months later when he figured out he wasn't a star goalie anymore). 2013 is the big aberration in Therrien's career that he went for a puck possession style.
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There weren't many good options on free agency in his first summer (Semin would have been nice and a perfect 2-way fit for Plekanec LW), but the team's needed a top-6 LW and a top-4 D since Bergevin was hired.
Anyway, not hire Therrien (means you go back to Jacques Martin given the language requirement, but at least he's an average NHL coach at worse), and as I've said earlier in the thread sign MacArthur and Gilbert this summer instead of Briere and Murray. With a little injury luck (which the Habs have had in spades this year) those two players and a competent coach make the Habs contenders in the weak East.
I wouldn't bet on that team beating the great teams in the West over the long haul mind you, but if you get through the weak East into the final a 7-game series isn't the long-haul and anything can happen.
Toronto is the most incompetently managed team in the league. Committing the Appealing to Authority fallacy with them isn't a smart thing to do.
Lafleurs Guy
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Eller and Gallagher probably have 60 point ceilings. Pleks has scored 60 already in his career and with better linemates could be doing it now. Subban and Markov are 60 point player guys easy...
Holes? Yes. No talent? No way.
Anyways, even if we disagree that's fine. What I can't accept though is somebody saying that we're getting the most out of this roster. We're not. Far from it.
First of all, you need to look at goal-differential rather than goals-for or goals-against since you win hockey by out-scoring.
Secondly, you need to look at the numbers in context. Quality of opposition, which you mentioned, matters. Zone-starts, where Murray gets a big tilt toward the offensive zone while Subban's big tilt toward the defensive zone, matters. And you need to look at PDO and regress the percentages since randomness in percentages can affect short-run (and for an individual player, a length of a season is the short-run in terms of percentages).
That said Subban, like the rest of the team outside of Price, has been awful since November. Given his level of play he doesn't deserve to go to the Olympics but, since the whole team aside from the goaltender has gone down the toilet (and the dump-and-chase/chip-and-lose style-change coincided with Murray and Emelin getting healthy), that's a coaching issue more than a Subban issue.
So Briere, who you just acknowledged is underused...Parros and Murray, none of which were ever intended to help increase scoring
Are somehow responsible for this teams fall in the goal scoring department?
Kind of odd logic, don't you think? Murray and Parros were just depth signings, Parros we know why he was signed...Murray's played more than I thought he would, but that's in part to several mitigating factors
Lafleurs Guy
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How so?
We had tons of cash to work with and brought in players who aren't helping us. How is this a good thing?
Do I blame Parros for not being Gretzky? Of course not. Same as I don't blame Murray for not being Coffey. But I do blame MB for signing these guys to begin with. And I don't understand why we'd get Briere and then not play him... Actually scratch that, I understand not playing him. Don't understand why we'd sign him in the first place.
Like I said, roster isn't perfect and has holes. I expected some of those holes to be addressed and instead our GM actually made the team worse.
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