Confirmed with Link: [VAN/MTL] Dale Weise for Raphael Diaz part 2

[JohnLennon]

Like someone said earlier, Diaz's value was not going to climb any higher whether now or later. Teams are not racing to get a smallish DMan who finally scored a goal after 45 games to meet their needs at the deadline.

It does, however, bring a player in who will give Bergevin the option to deal Bourque or Moen or both since Weise is younger and has size.

As usual, trades are great entertainment on this board.

Trades are very entertaining. Some people just needed an outlet to whine about Bergevin more, some people wanted a reason to let out their frustrations with the team's play, some people genuinely overrated Diaz or underrated Weise, etc.

All I know is that the trade is too minor to get so upset over. I think Weise has a promising future as an effective bottom six player, and Diaz was part of a big logjam at defense for next season. I think his value could've been a bit higher because he was good in many situations, but I'm not too upset with the trade in general.

People are just very emotional on these boards. That's why I often post when I know I won't let emotions form my opinions.

 

[radicalcenter]

First of all, you need to look at goal-differential rather than goals-for or goals-against since you win hockey by out-scoring.

Secondly, you need to look at the numbers in context. Quality of opposition, which you mentioned, matters. Zone-starts, where Murray gets a big tilt toward the offensive zone while Subban's big tilt toward the defensive zone, matters. And you need to look at PDO and regress the percentages since randomness in percentages can affect short-run (and for an individual player, a length of a season is the short-run in terms of percentages).

That said Subban, like the rest of the team outside of Price, has been awful since November. Given his level of play he doesn't deserve to go to the Olympics but, since the whole team aside from the goaltender has gone down the toilet (and the dump-and-chase/chip-and-lose style-change coincided with Murray and Emelin getting healthy), that's a coaching issue more than a Subban issue.

Nope

Murray is not awful defensively, his GA/60 min is on par with every other dman on this team not named Gorges.

Murray wasn't brought in for his offensive attribute. Hockey players have role, some player have the task to score goals others are there to give hits and blocked shots. If Murray does the latter he helps the team win. The lack of GFor have nothing to do with him.

 

[Hoople]

Some of that should be attributed to the higher risk reward style Subban was playing for the 1st 20 games or so (when the Habs were doing quite well, it was paying off big time offensively) before the November system switch.

There was a large gap between the two of them in goals given up. This has evaporated as Subban has been been effected pretty badly by the total system collapse experienced over the last couple months. That stretch of three games where he went 7 against and 0 on ES for completely changed the numbers.

In any event I doubt our positions are all that far apart. A team could survive a Murray if they were playing a good style and the problem was localized to just him. But its far, far worse than that.

That's why this fight is only somewhat about trading Diaz. Its not the trade, its the trade as a symptom that the team isn't really thinking about the puck possession problem in terms that make any sense. Murray is a notable symptom of a wider problem.

The entire point I am trying to make is that neither Murray nor Subban are symptoms of a wider problem.

They are the results of a wider problem.

The wider problem is that we have a Norris Trophy winner with the same goals against per 60 as Douglas Murray, a bottom pairing DMan who is not mobile.

That points directly to Coach Therrien. His approach to defense is extremely flawed and is impacting the team negatively.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Nope

Murray is not awful defensively, his GA/60 min is on par with every other dman on this team not named Gorges.

Murray wasn't brought in for his offensive attribute. Hockey players have role, some player have the task to score goals others are there to give hits and blocked shots. If Murray does the latter he helps the team win. The lack of GFor have nothing to do with him.

Yes it does.

The more you play him, the less we have the puck and the less offense we generate. If you take him out of the lineup and put in say... Diaz, then the offense will be better.

In economics it's a concept called "opportunity cost" and it applies to hockey as well.

 

[Hoople]

Trades are very entertaining. Some people just needed an outlet to whine about Bergevin more, some people wanted a reason to let out their frustrations with the team's play, some people genuinely overrated Diaz or underrated Weise, etc.

All I know is that the trade is too minor to get so upset over. I think Weise has a promising future as an effective bottom six player, and Diaz was part of a big logjam at defense for next season. I think his value could've been a bit higher because he was good in many situations, but I'm not too upset with the trade in general.

People are just very emotional on these boards. That's why I often post when I know I won't let emotions form my opinions.

And that's why I enjoy your posts, whether we agree are disagree.

 

[417]

How so?

We had tons of cash to work with and brought in players who aren't helping us. How is this a good thing?

Do I blame Parros for not being Gretzky? Of course not. Same as I don't blame Murray for not being Coffey. But I do blame MB for signing these guys to begin with. And I don't understand why we'd get Briere and then not play him... Actually scratch that, I understand not playing him. Don't understand why we'd sign him in the first place.

Like I said, roster isn't perfect and has holes. I expected some of those holes to be addressed and instead our GM actually made the team worse.

It's hard to address the holes on this roster without sacrificing what they would rather hold on too

Furthermore, I don't see anything that was available free agency wise which would of drastically changed the Habs fortunes

MB's just made some moves to try to make the team competitive, none of those moves are really handcuffing or drastic for the amount of flak he's received

The core of this team is still there and growing, and eventually, I think he'll start trimming some of the fat off of it

But it is going to take time...

 

[Roke]

Nope

Murray is not awful defensively, his GA/60 min is on par with every other dman on this team not named Gorges.

Murray wasn't brought in for his offensive attribute. Hockey players have role, some player have the task to score goals others are there to give hits and blocked shots. If Murray does the latter he helps the team win. The lack of GFor have nothing to do with him.

Hockey is too fluid a game to separate offense and defense into distinct categories, one affect the others The puck and players move quickly enough to go from defending to attacking in a matter of seconds. And as Lafleurs Guy said, when Murray's on the ice the other team usually has the puck (looking at the shot-attempt numbers as a proxy for possession), and unless Ryan O'Byrne's on the ice for the other team and the net is empty it's hard to score when you don't have the puck.

 

[Hoople]

First of all, you need to look at goal-differential rather than goals-for or goals-against since you win hockey by out-scoring.

Secondly, you need to look at the numbers in context. Quality of opposition, which you mentioned, matters. Zone-starts, where Murray gets a big tilt toward the offensive zone while Subban's big tilt toward the defensive zone, matters. And you need to look at PDO and regress the percentages since randomness in percentages can affect short-run (and for an individual player, a length of a season is the short-run in terms of percentages).

That said Subban, like the rest of the team outside of Price, has been awful since November. Given his level of play he doesn't deserve to go to the Olympics but, since the whole team aside from the goaltender has gone down the toilet (and the dump-and-chase/chip-and-lose style-change coincided with Murray and Emelin getting healthy), that's a coaching issue more than a Subban issue.

So not only Murray (Emelin) is the reason we are losing games, he is the reason that Therrien decided not to use two forecheckers and be more aggressive..........even when Murray is not on the ice?

Think about that for a second and see how ridiculous that sounds.

Murray gets hemmed in at times in his zone. But so does Subban, Markov, Gorges, Beaulieu and Emelin. The Habs do not have a STRUCTURED break out system. We saw that last night with Markov continuing to ice the puck at the end of the game.

None of our D are to blame for our zone exit issues. Without structure, you simply try your best to get rid of the puck as quickly as possible. Diaz was one of the best at passing the puck to no one (actually the opposing teams forward) in particular in the neutral zone. Subban has become the master of the pitchfork and Markov is suberb on the hard around.........on and off the glass.

Its coaching.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

#FireTherrien

 

[radicalcenter]

Yes it does.

The more you play him, the less we have the puck and the less offense we generate. If you take him out of the lineup and put in say... Diaz, then the offense will be better.

In economics it's a concept called "opportunity cost" and it applies to hockey as well.

We can talk economics if you wanna

We can talk about marginal ice time

You can't deny the fact that Murray brings an element that our defensive squad would lack otherwise.

Just find the sweet spot where his ice time marginal benefit = ice time marginal cost and then you'll maximize Murray's ice time.

 

[JohnLennon]

And that's why I enjoy your posts, whether we agree are disagree.

Thank you and agreed, same for me

 

[Roke]

So not only Murray (Emelin) is the reason we are losing games, he is the reason that Therrien decided not to use two forecheckers and be more aggressive..........even when Murray is not on the ice?

Think about that for a second and see how ridiculous that sounds.

Murray gets hemmed in at times in his zone. But so does Subban, Markov, Gorges, Beaulieu and Emelin. The Habs do not have a STRUCTURED break out system. We saw that last night with Markov continuing to ice the puck at the end of the game.

None of our D are to blame for our zone exit issues. Without structure, you simply try your best to get rid of the puck as quickly as possible. Diaz was one of the best at passing the puck to no one (actually the opposing teams forward) in particular in the neutral zone. Subban has become the master of the pitchfork and Markov is suberb on the hard around.........on and off the glass.

Its coaching.

Yes, Coaching and organizational philosophy are the biggest issues with this team. Playing Murray (who I should point out has been a guy constantly hemmed into his own zone since he got injured with San Jose a few years ago) is one of the symptoms because by playing him they demonstrate that they don't know the attributes, in the modern NHL, leads to out-shooting/ leads to out-chancing/ leads to out-scoring/leads to winning).

On the list of problems with the Habs, Murray is #3 or #4 behind Therrien, Bergevin, and I'd argue Molson. He's comparably minor to those three, but he's the biggest problem in terms of the players. The guy hasn't been able to play effective NHL hockey for years and it started when he was still with the Sharks. The Habs could use the Douglas Murray of 4 years ago and he would be a good player, they got the Douglas Murray who's a lot like Janne Niinimaa when he was with the Habs, or Ryan Whitney after his ankle injuries.

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

We can talk economics if you wanna

We can talk about marginal ice time

You can't deny the fact that Murray brings an element that our defensive squad would lack otherwise.

Just find the sweet spot where his ice time marginal benefit = ice time marginal cost and then you'll maximize Murray's ice time.

The point that gets repeatedly made is that none of that element is helping put pucks into the other net or out of his own on aggregate.

Physical play isn't a 3rd part of the game on top of goals scored or against, its value is in helping one of those two things.

When a guy isn't helping in either of those directions then the best marginal ice time is zero if you can get away with it.

 

[radicalcenter]

The point that gets repeatedly made is that none of that element is helping put pucks into the other net or out of his own on aggregate.

Physical play isn't a 3rd part of the game on top of goals scored or against, its value is in helping one of those two things.

When a guy isn't helping in either of those directions then the best marginal ice time is zero if you can get away with it.

So you're saying Murray didn't help the team yesterday?

And do you think Beaulieu would be playing as physical as he does at the moment if Murray wasn't on the ice in case things went south?

Or do you think players did not appreciate it when he fought Scott after he ran Price?

Murray brings positive elements to this team, now it's just a matter of managing his ice time so that the positive elements outweighs the negative ones.

 

[JohnLennon]

It seems everyone has Murray still labelled as useless. He has been far from it for the past couple weeks. Give credit where it's due: he has shown a large improvement in his play, especially in our own end. He is playing as we hoped he would play at the beginning: a big, physical guy who will clog lanes and kill penalties. He's doing his job perfectly as a bottom pairing defenseman.

 

[SquiddFX]

I think the Weise-White-Bourni line should be called the Flash line.

 

[OpenIceHit]

Part II? Almost part III? Really?

 

[Hope Of Glory]

Part II? Almost part III? Really?

We're nearing 2000 posts for that? That's crazy.

 

[donghabs98]

Part II? Almost part III? Really?

Just think how big the thread would be if Bergevin made a big trade

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Just think how big the thread would be if Bergevin made a big trade

...if Markov gets traded, they may as well just give us an extra Board...

 

[rafal majka]

So you needed Corsi and Fenwick stats to know that PK Subban is better than Douglas Murray?

Jeez

Just watching a few clips where Murray screens Price is proof enough.

The extra skater site just provides validation.

 

[Gomez91]

Yes it does.

The more you play him, the less we have the puck and the less offense we generate. If you take him out of the lineup and put in say... Diaz, then the offense will be better.

In economics it's a concept called "opportunity cost" and it applies to hockey as well.

What lol? 5 on 3 last night he stopped the scoring chances on his own and the best you can quote is "the less we have the puck and the less offense we generate. If you take him out of the lineup and put in say... Diaz, then the offense will be better. WTF before Murray who was on the plenty kill that worked lol and to top it off take Murray out and in blank _____lol? Who would Price high five for blocking the Flames scoring chances, Diaz lol? Opportunity cost may work in your text book but give it a rest last night Murray showed he belongs

 

[Gomez91]

It seems everyone has Murray still labelled as useless. He has been far from it for the past couple weeks. Give credit where it's due: he has shown a large improvement in his play, especially in our own end. He is playing as we hoped he would play at the beginning: a big, physical guy who will clog lanes and kill penalties. He's doing his job perfectly as a bottom pairing defenseman.

For what he was brought in for he is well worth the cost as a bottom pairing defenseman and consider Pittsburgh saw opportunity in him last year in the playoff's as a team it never worked out but he is growing as a bottom pairing d man

 

[Whitesnake]

I'm certainly not a Therrien fan by any means, but I think he gets a lot of flak for nothing. Yes, there's a lot of things he can improve on

But i'd like to know what you or other's think he should be doing to get more out of this team?

Look at this roster, does this look like a roster that's underachieving? Or is it overachieving?

I think it's the latter...which to me shows that the coaching staff is getting the most out of it's players.

You realize that the leading scorer on this team for almost the entire year has been a defensman? lol

Don't worry. True that this team is average. I keep saying it as well. Yet, as a coach, he takes so many dumb decisions, it's scary. The fact that he didn't reunite the EGG line has to be one of the dumbest decision of them all. And I'm not expecting him to do so when Chucky comes back. But again, totally true that this is an average team. Yet, you don,t take an average team and makes it worst by playing the "grinding game". And the only reason why it might overachieve a little is due to the extremely poor Eastern conference. Don,t worry, Therrien coaching would mean nothing to our team being in the West. It would then show how average the team really is....and there would be NO overachieving. And if there is one overachiever on this team, it's Price. Not Therrien DA GAMEPLAN. Price. That's it.

So yes...this team is average. And I'm being polite.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

...so...are we gonna go for Part III or is that overdoing it??...


EDIT:...almost forgot:


#FireTherrien