USACHL: New Junior League?

[Rgvhockeyfan]

Why all the hate?? I'm from the valley where this is coming together..

Just a thought...with The Texas Lawmen being 5 miles from the bees I'm pretty sure both will be using state farm arena...the rec rink will be a practice facility is my guess...which my guess is the rio frio ice center... No its nothing like state farm arena

If you think about it that was a huge move...bringing another team into basically the same city....travel costs are now a minimum issue that have plagued so many in the past...i wouldn't be surprised to see the owners eventually move all their teams to south texas...that would make some sense from what I hear about travel costs hurting so many leagues...



Anyway I'm hopeful...this is a new model of a league...

 

[mk80]

Why all the hate?? I'm from the valley where this is coming together..

Just a thought...with The Texas Lawmen being 5 miles from the bees I'm pretty sure both will be using state farm arena...the rec rink will be a practice facility is my guess...which my guess is the rio frio ice center... No its nothing like state farm arena

If you think about it that was a huge move...bringing another team into basically the same city....travel costs are now a minimum issue that have plagued so many in the past...i wouldn't be surprised to see the owners eventually move all their teams to south texas...that would make some sense from what I hear about travel costs hurting so many leagues...



Anyway I'm hopeful...this is a new model of a league...

Personally I hope it is successful, although the league is certainly having a tough go right now. Announcing all these teams so late in the year is going to severely limit the talent they attract because most North American guys are all set on their teams, the players that do come are going to be the ones who didn't make another junior league, which if this league wants to be on the same level as the NAHL for example that's not going to cut it. That being said all the coaches have very good experience and qualifications so I think this first season aside they should be able to build competitive clubs moving forward.

As for the Lawmen and RGV, again I hope the league can be successful, although to be honest the valley may not be able to support two teams. I do think the Lawmen are only a temporary place holder team for this season though.

 

[Rgvhockeyfan]

Truth be known the RGV has never been able to support any professional team for long...even soccer struggles being on the doorstep of Mexico (actually this used to be mexico and the population is still 80% Mexican, btw all my best friends are mexican, they are great people)

All teams seem to hit a peak and then die off in a slow death...

So if I'm placing a bet they will last 10 years, answer is I wish but no.

 

[mk80]

Truth be known the RGV has never been able to support any professional team for long...even soccer struggles being on the doorstep of Mexico (actually this used to be mexico and the population is still 80% Mexican, btw all my best friends are mexican, they are great people)

All teams seem to hit a peak and then die off in a slow death...

So if I'm placing a bet they will last 10 years, answer is I wish but no.

I think the league's leadership is good, I'm sure they will be able to grow it over time.

 

[sbkbghockey]

Why all the hate?? I'm from the valley where this is coming together..

Just a thought...with The Texas Lawmen being 5 miles from the bees I'm pretty sure both will be using state farm arena...the rec rink will be a practice facility is my guess...which my guess is the rio frio ice center... No its nothing like state farm arena

If you think about it that was a huge move...bringing another team into basically the same city....travel costs are now a minimum issue that have plagued so many in the past...i wouldn't be surprised to see the owners eventually move all their teams to south texas...that would make some sense from what I hear about travel costs hurting so many leagues...
Anyway I'm hopeful...this is a new model of a league...

I don't know if it's as much "hate" as constructive criticism or realism. Personally, the true is most likely between the Death Pool and Stephen Heisler's articles.

Per Heisler, I agree that the league ownership of teams is good for the start-up because they can build parity and also co-branding and shared league branding. With success, both on the ice and in business sides, they can open up to new privately owned teams or sell off the inaugural teams to private investors after the league shows the team's can turn gate turnstiles and get ad sponsors. Also I agree there's some good small to mid-size markets in TX, South, and Southwest and Great Plains states that makes sense for a junior and not minor pro model.

While the Death Pool is often exaggerated and up-hyped drama, there's truth to those articles too. As much as Heisler's article highlights some of the positive ideas and league potential, the Death Pool article highlights some true and major red flags for the league. When the league announced starting for 2018 in late March 2018, I expected they'd struggle to recruit high end players. Although they have some solid and credentialed coaches, they were all hired way too late in the junior recruiting timeline for top-end guys.

Part of the success of junior hockey is moving players to college or pro opportunities, they might send some first year guys to ACHA D2/D3 club teams but will need to drastically increase talent and start sending guys within 2 seasons to true varsity college hockey programs at NCAA D3 and NAIA schools and in 5-10 seasons be a true Tier I talented league and send guys t0 NCAA D1, CIS, Pros. First year there will not be varsity hockey coaches in the stands, they'll need to set up showcase events. With markets way outside traditional college hockey recruiting corridors, it'd be good to have a showcase in a more traditional hockey area closer to the college teams in the Upper Midwest and Northeast or a large market with easy access to a major airport like Dallas or Houston.

Also they originally expected 6 teams, which is generally the benchmark for a small but competitive and varied enough league. With only 4 teams, fans and players may get tired of seeing the same 3 other teams. The best idea would have been to announce in March, secure the first 4 teams, build with 2-4 next teams, get coaching in place and then give them a year to recruit while also a year for the teams to establish and market themselves in the cities and build excitement through the team-building process. If the league survives, keeps a stable core of teams, and grows in marketing value and talent, it'd be interesting if any of the current NAHL or NA3HL programs in the region look to jump ship to the USACHL in the future (5-10 years).

Also, like Rgvhockeyfan pointed out, as the league continues, it will need to be selective on facilities, Tier II and Tier I junior leagues have much higher facility benchmarks than tier III juniors or Jr B/C in Canada. Especially if this is a marketing and attendance based revenue league like the NAHL/USHL, the facilities need fan amenities as much as the players' needs. Fans won't consistently buy tickets to watch in a cold, damp, rec rink. The NCDC works because it's a different model with the overall league driving the revenue and not butts in the seats (a model that works in the hockey saturated Northeast markets).

I think between the optimism and criticism, we in the hockey community hope the league battles through year one, use it as a test and build up (like a soft open) then go full on in seasons after with drastically increased talent next season.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I don't know if it's as much "hate" as constructive criticism or realism. Personally, the true is most likely between the Death Pool and Stephen Heisler's articles.

Per Heisler, I agree that the league ownership of teams is good for the start-up because they can build parity and also co-branding and shared league branding. With success, both on the ice and in business sides, they can open up to new privately owned teams or sell off the inaugural teams to private investors after the league shows the team's can turn gate turnstiles and get ad sponsors. Also I agree there's some good small to mid-size markets in TX, South, and Southwest and Great Plains states that makes sense for a junior and not minor pro model.

While the Death Pool is often exaggerated and up-hyped drama, there's truth to those articles too. As much as Heisler's article highlights some of the positive ideas and league potential, the Death Pool article highlights some true and major red flags for the league. When the league announced starting for 2018 in late March 2018, I expected they'd struggle to recruit high end players. Although they have some solid and credentialed coaches, they were all hired way too late in the junior recruiting timeline for top-end guys.

Part of the success of junior hockey is moving players to college or pro opportunities, they might send some first year guys to ACHA D2/D3 club teams but will need to drastically increase talent and start sending guys within 2 seasons to true varsity college hockey programs at NCAA D3 and NAIA schools and in 5-10 seasons be a true Tier I talented league and send guys t0 NCAA D1, CIS, Pros. First year there will not be varsity hockey coaches in the stands, they'll need to set up showcase events. With markets way outside traditional college hockey recruiting corridors, it'd be good to have a showcase in a more traditional hockey area closer to the college teams in the Upper Midwest and Northeast or a large market with easy access to a major airport like Dallas or Houston.

Also they originally expected 6 teams, which is generally the benchmark for a small but competitive and varied enough league. With only 4 teams, fans and players may get tired of seeing the same 3 other teams. The best idea would have been to announce in March, secure the first 4 teams, build with 2-4 next teams, get coaching in place and then give them a year to recruit while also a year for the teams to establish and market themselves in the cities and build excitement through the team-building process. If the league survives, keeps a stable core of teams, and grows in marketing value and talent, it'd be interesting if any of the current NAHL or NA3HL programs in the region look to jump ship to the USACHL in the future (5-10 years).

Also, like Rgvhockeyfan pointed out, as the league continues, it will need to be selective on facilities, Tier II and Tier I junior leagues have much higher facility benchmarks than tier III juniors or Jr B/C in Canada. Especially if this is a marketing and attendance based revenue league like the NAHL/USHL, the facilities need fan amenities as much as the players' needs. Fans won't consistently buy tickets to watch in a cold, damp, rec rink. The NCDC works because it's a different model with the overall league driving the revenue and not butts in the seats (a model that works in the hockey saturated Northeast markets).

I think between the optimism and criticism, we in the hockey community hope the league battles through year one, use it as a test and build up (like a soft open) then go full on in seasons after with drastically increased talent next season.

My thoughts exactly an all accounts. We've all seen enough junior teams fail, with the stories exaggerated by the Death Pool and then Heisler diverting attention elsewhere. It seems like the league is all over the place, with good coaching staffs in place but lacking in teams and players.

If they think they can snag Tier I & II quality players, UShow and NA teams have histories of committing kids and are a lot closer to the NCAA schools. The Texas-Mexico border and these four teams have neither of those qualities. That's not hate, that's simply a fact, regardless of who is behind the bench. There's more bigger and more competitive leagues with a better chance of putting them into college. They'll get Tier 3 level kids and then perhaps the handful of cuts in from the UShow and NA in preseason.

It sounds like they're trying to be revenue based and have the kids pay for billeting like the NAHL. Once again, not hate, but are people really going to show up to games when the same three teams keep coming into town? The Lawmen have to be a placekeeper, the announcement article admitted that the league stepped in when 2 markets backed out so that way they wouldn't play with only three teams and didn't even announce an arena. Where are the interested markets lining up? Adding El Paso from the WSHL would've been a game changer, they have fans and history, and a bigger statement would've been snagging a NA South Division team.

Sorry to say that many teams have failed in much better environments.

 

[BOS358]

Not sure if the "all the hate" comment was directed at me, but I'll throw in my agorot here.

If I'm being accused of hating Stephen Heisler, guilty as charged. He is a fraud. As is "David Wagner" (aka "Death Pool Guy," though I've heard doubts that the latter is a real person.) Both sites are driven by their advertisers and shape their opinions as such. More importantly, both have blatantly disregarded facts before spewing out their garbage.

As for the USACHL itself, it might be "Eastern Bias," but to me, the whole point of a junior hockey league is to advance players to higher levels. The league and its four teams may do extremely well at the gate, but can they move a player on to NCAA Division 1 hockey or the Canadian Hockey League? I doubt it. The WSHL calls itself "Tier II" but has but a handful of D1 alumni. This is in contrast to the defunct EJHL, formerly Tier III USPHL top division (fka Premier, current NCDC), or even the Atlantic/ EHL.

Now the AAU/ UHU has started a "Tier I" league after showing it can't even be a legitimate Tier II league. According to Heisler (yes, he's an idiot, but he's the only source I have", the league is only open to players ages 18-20. Let's face it, hockey's getting younger. Players are committing to college before they even know where they're going to high school. By having the league be only 18-20, they're locking out some of the best midget players who could use a higher level of competition, and would go to a more established league. Colleges will stay away. CHL teams are practically being barred from scouting it. Who will take the players after they age out? Some NCAA D3 teams will take them. A few will end up in the SPHL and FHL. The rest will go back to their home countries and play in the lower-level "pro" leagues there.

Good for the league and the owners if they succeed financially. I have no issue with that, especially if the players don't have to pay a penny. But like I said, I can't imagine the league being anything other than a glorified WSHL.

 

[mk80]

Like I've said I believe the league's leadership in place is qualified enough to eventually establish a solid league. Coaching and League personnel all have solid junior and even pro sports experience (See league website: USA CENTRAL HOCKEY LEAGUE | CORPORATE)

Laredo, RGV, and Witchita Falls have some nice venues. I think there are definitely some other potential markets moving forward that they could snag or explore validity of in the region.

As most have pointed out though, these first few years, especially this season are going to be rough. The time of announcing teams has left a shortage of talent which won't be at the level they want to be at. Fans may get tired of the same 3 teams. The Texas Lawmen will play in a rec rink, the Texas- Mexico border isn't exactly a rabid hockey hotbed, in fact what worries me is that RGV and Wichita Falls both couldn't support NA teams.

 

[mk80]

Teams are starting to announce players, haven't had a chance to keep up with all of them, but saw one or two announcements with some decent talent.

 

[GoalieEd]

First games in wichita falls is this weekend (Sat and Sunday). Seems like things are set to launch, at least from a total outsider view. I’ll be catching the sunday game but I don’t have a trained eye of what to expect.

 

[Rgvhockeyfan]

Not sure if the "all the hate" comment was directed at me, but I'll throw in my agorot here.

If I'm being accused of hating Stephen Heisler, guilty as charged. He is a fraud. As is "David Wagner" (aka "Death Pool Guy," though I've heard doubts that the latter is a real person.) Both sites are driven by their advertisers and shape their opinions as such. More importantly, both have blatantly disregarded facts before spewing out their garbage.

As for the USACHL itself, it might be "Eastern Bias," but to me, the whole point of a junior hockey league is to advance players to higher levels. The league and its four teams may do extremely well at the gate, but can they move a player on to NCAA Division 1 hockey or the Canadian Hockey League? I doubt it. The WSHL calls itself "Tier II" but has but a handful of D1 alumni. This is in contrast to the defunct EJHL, formerly Tier III USPHL top division (fka Premier, current NCDC), or even the Atlantic/ EHL.

Now the AAU/ UHU has started a "Tier I" league after showing it can't even be a legitimate Tier II league. According to Heisler (yes, he's an idiot, but he's the only source I have", the league is only open to players ages 18-20. Let's face it, hockey's getting younger. Players are committing to college before they even know where they're going to high school. By having the league be only 18-20, they're locking out some of the best midget players who could use a higher level of competition, and would go to a more established league. Colleges will stay away. CHL teams are practically being barred from scouting it. Who will take the players after they age out? Some NCAA D3 teams will take them. A few will end up in the SPHL and FHL. The rest will go back to their home countries and play in the lower-level "pro" leagues there.

Good for the league and the owners if they succeed financially. I have no issue with that, especially if the players don't have to pay a penny. But like I said, I can't imagine the league being anything other than a glorified WSHL.

 

[swoopster]

When is is time for somebody to decide that this foolishness has to stop... I'm 20 and playing in a conceptual reality!

Why did we start fostering this "impossible dream".

 

[JungleJON]

Seeing pictures posted on FB - looks like they did not draw well this past weekend. What were the attendence figures from this past weekend's games?

 

[Rgvhockeyfan]

Seeing pictures posted on FB - looks like they did not draw well this past weekend. What were the attendence figures from this past weekend's games?

Heh...another deathwish...I just love all you haters...

Ok...the witicha falls force fell flat on their face (as a roar comes up from the crowd)
Somewhere I saw a 653 number...don't know if it was sat or Sundays game...but here's some more wood for your witchhunting...all 4 teams had less than 12 players!!!
And as a final burial for the home team they lost by a two game total of 12-2!!!!!!

Awful news in the valley tho...about 2 to 3 thousand showed up with a bees win and rave reviews with everybody leaving tickled drunk hockey was back wanting more...

Yea this league should fold any day now.....

 

[JungleJON]

Heh...another deathwish...I just love all you haters...

Ok...the witicha falls force fell flat on their face (as a roar comes up from the crowd)
Somewhere I saw a 653 number...don't know if it was sat or Sundays game...but here's some more wood for your witchhunting...all 4 teams had less than 12 players!!!
And as a final burial for the home team they lost by a two game total of 12-2!!!!!!

Awful news in the valley tho...about 2 to 3 thousand showed up with a bees win and rave reviews with everybody leaving tickled drunk hockey was back wanting more...

Yea this league should fold any day now.....

Why is what I posted hateful? You sound like a Democrat screaming about Trump. Calm down and enjoy hockey while you still have a team.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Heh...another deathwish...I just love all you haters...

Ok...the witicha falls force fell flat on their face (as a roar comes up from the crowd)
Somewhere I saw a 653 number...don't know if it was sat or Sundays game...but here's some more wood for your witchhunting...all 4 teams had less than 12 players!!!
And as a final burial for the home team they lost by a two game total of 12-2!!!!!!

Awful news in the valley tho...about 2 to 3 thousand showed up with a bees win and rave reviews with everybody leaving tickled drunk hockey was back wanting more...

Yea this league should fold any day now.....

Calm down, guy. Constructive criticism is different than hate and there's a lot to criticize. If they were doing a good job running the league, then that's a different story.

Good attendance for the weekend of the home opener for one team in a four team league, congrats. Even though the game is up on YouTube and 2-3,000 is a bit exaggerated while the talent level looks like the majority are kids who wouldn't stand out on a Tier 3 team. But what do I know, the league had to make a team out of thin air at the last minute to get to a grand total of four because no one else wanted in. No one said this league was going to fold before it even began, or even during it's first season. Give it a season or two and let's see where things are. There are markets that could fit the league well, but, even with your amazing home opener, the league is a tough sell to towns already hence why there's only four teams.

If I remember correctly, what sunk RGV's NAHL team wasn't even fan support, it was travel costs in addition to the league wanting an East Coast presence that influenced their move to Pennsylvania, or else they still might have a junior team worth watching.

 

[Rgvhockeyfan]

Calm down, guy. Constructive criticism is different than hate and there's a lot to criticize. If they were doing a good job running the league, then that's a different story.

Good attendance for the weekend of the home opener for one team in a four team league, congrats. Even though the game is up on YouTube and 2-3,000 is a bit exaggerated while the talent level looks like the majority are kids who wouldn't stand out on a Tier 3 team. But what do I know, the league had to make a team out of thin air at the last minute to get to a grand total of four because no one else wanted in. No one said this league was going to fold before it even began, or even during it's first season. Give it a season or two and let's see where things are. There are markets that could fit the league well, but, even with your amazing home opener, the league is a tough sell to towns already hence why there's only four teams.

If I remember correctly, what sunk RGV's NAHL team wasn't even fan support, it was travel costs in addition to the league wanting an East Coast presence that influenced their move to Pennsylvania, or else they still might have a junior team worth watching.

The NAHL was the most boring thing ever to watch, that's why it died here with the fans...the place went wild every time a fight broke out last Friday night. You never got that bonus with the the girlie NAHL.

 

[PCSPounder]

But what do I know, the league had to make a team out of thin air at the last minute to get to a grand total of four because no one else wanted in. No one said this league was going to fold before it even began, or even during it's first season. Give it a season or two and let's see where things are. There are markets that could fit the league well, but, even with your amazing home opener, the league is a tough sell to towns already hence why there's only four teams.

For the record, yes, "they" said it would fold before it started (or at least a few of "they"). I did, too. So I'm wrong, but if 3 out of 4 markets are any indication, it's either a dead league walking or RGV will be subsidizing it.

BTW, the way the NAHL schedule is supposed to work, Pennsylvania should have NOTHING to do with Texas. There might be a few forays by wayward teams to Alaska (and Wenatchee, when they were in the league), but those were the exceptions rather than the rule. I'm willing to think that the other local teams didn't want to travel down there... not that anyone has ever liked having Alaskan teams in their division in whatever sport or league.

 

[BOS358]

It's great to read the reports of opening weekend on here, as it accounts for about a third of the media presence of the new league.

While a great off-ice presence does not indicate on-ice quality or vice versa, there are some glaring questions regarding the league staff:

Why haven't rosters been posted?
Why are box scores not available?
Why is there no news on the website about the opening weekend?
For those of us who do not live in Texas, is there any way to watch the games, even for a fee?

One would think the first two would have been posted before the opening game, and the third and fourth would be necessary to communicate the league's viability to potential corporate partners.

For all I know, the league office may be staffed with qualified, experienced, and competent people. But if that is the case, it appears they went "all in" too quickly and that can kill any venture.

 

[Rgvhockeyfan]

It's great to read the reports of opening weekend on here, as it accounts for about a third of the media presence of the new league.

While a great off-ice presence does not indicate on-ice quality or vice versa, there are some glaring questions regarding the league staff:

Why haven't rosters been posted?
Why are box scores not available?
Why is there no news on the website about the opening weekend?
For those of us who do not live in Texas, is there any way to watch the games, even for a fee?

One would think the first two would have been posted before the opening game, and the third and fourth would be necessary to communicate the league's viability to potential corporate partners.

For all I know, the league office may be staffed with qualified, experienced, and competent people. But if that is the case, it appears they went "all in" too quickly and that can kill any venture.

Omg the horror of it all...somebody plz just put it out of its misery...

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Omg the horror of it all...somebody plz just put it out of its misery...

Unfortunately, those are usually the minimum qualifications for even the lowest league. Even the Fed exceeds those marks by a long shot. They don't have scores, rosters, or anything else online other than who's running the league, along with benches short enough that any other league would revoke their membership. Those are basic things that the league is failing in and, at least for me, I would prefer the league not exist instead of a having one that is a total crapshow that doesn't hold that even the most basic standards.

The NAHL was the most boring thing ever to watch, that's why it died here with the fans...the place went wild every time a fight broke out last Friday night.

If you really just want fighting on ice, then there's plenty of beer leagues out there that you'll love. And they still have more transparency than the alphabet soup league that your team is in.

 

[Rgvhockeyfan]

Unfortunately, those are usually the minimum qualifications for even the lowest league. Even the Fed exceeds those marks by a long shot. They don't have scores, rosters, or anything else online other than who's running the league, along with benches short enough that any other league would revoke their membership. Those are basic things that the league is failing in and, at least for me, I would prefer the league not exist instead of a having one that is a total crapshow that doesn't hold that even the most basic standards.



If you really just want fighting on ice, then there's plenty of beer leagues out there that you'll love. And they still have more transparency than the alphabet soup league that your team is in.

Hey watch it....I'm a sensitive guy!!!

...geeeze...Can't believe the Great Jr. hockey authority responded to my post...

Btw can you give me a beer league in my area? In in South Texas, you said there's pleanty...

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Hey watch it....I'm a sensitive guy!!!

...geeeze...Can't believe the Great Jr. hockey authority responded to my post...

Btw can you give me a beer league in my area? In in South Texas, you said there's pleanty...

Wasn’t saying there were, was just pointing out there were beer leagues out there in general better organized than your little circus.

Not the great authority on hockey. But I know a shit show when I see one, there’s “pleanty” of them out there. And *plenty* more that meet basic hockey standards.

 

[Rgvhockeyfan]

Unfortunately, those are usually the minimum qualifications for even the lowest league. Even the Fed exceeds those marks by a long shot. They don't have scores, rosters, or anything else online other than who's running the league, along with benches short enough that any other league would revoke their membership. Those are basic things that the league is failing in and, at least for me, I would prefer the league not exist instead of a having one that is a total crapshow that doesn't hold that even the most basic standards.



If you really just want fighting on ice, then there's plenty of beer leagues out there that you'll love.

Wow. Hoping a Jr hockey league and in this case basically a free to play one for the kids, fails.

Just wow Barclay, What a great guy you are.

 

[sbkbghockey]

Wow. Hoping a Jr hockey league and in this case basically a free to play one for the kids, fails.

Just wow Barclay, What a great guy you are.

BTW, the league isn't even a true Tier I junior league. In the USHL, players receive hockey equipment head to toe while in the USACHL players get helmets, sticks, gloves, pant shells, bags/team apparel - i.e players pay for all protective equipment (including hockey pants) and skates.