Update: Conflicting info on Holland. (He still might return.)

[kliq]

Did you guys not see Chicago trading away guys several times to keep their core together?

I'm specifically talking at the trade deadline. Are you? If so, my bad, I wasn't aware Chicago ever did that.

 

[Syckle78]

Except, I have probably seen more Red Wings games both in person and on TV than you. I watched Homer his whole career. And he wasn't a defensive stalwart. He wasn't a playmaker. He wasn't a grinder when he started to see his stats jump. He was the demolition man at first, but also got a reputation for embellishment. About that time he was finally repurposed to be a net front guy (early 2000's) and he found his niche. And that's okay. He didn't need to be a Selke winner or a prolific passer. He could do his thing in front of the net, and the team, and the NHL was built to allow that to flourish. If he were to start in the NHL today on the Red Wings, I would bet cash money that his stats would take a 15%+ hit, why? Because you can review interference and any contact can cause a goal to be disallowed. And Homer was famous for having his butt right in the face of goalies.

Except, I have probably seen more Red Wings games both in person and on TV than you. I watched Homer his whole career. And he wasn't a defensive stalwart. He wasn't a playmaker. He wasn't a grinder when he started to see his stats jump. He was the demolition man at first, but also got a reputation for embellishment. About that time he was finally repurposed to be a net front guy (early 2000's) and he found his niche. And that's okay. He didn't need to be a Selke winner or a prolific passer. He could do his thing in front of the net, and the team, and the NHL was built to allow that to flourish. If he were to start in the NHL today on the Red Wings, I would bet cash money that his stats would take a 15%+ hit, why? Because you can review interference and any contact can cause a goal to be disallowed. And Homer was famous for having his butt right in the face of goalies.

It's funny you presume to have watched more than I then go on about how rules now would take away from his production. Rules were more stringent then when a single toe in the crease would wipe out goals and reviews were absolutely killing the excitement of the game. But hey you watched all through that period more than me. Amirite?

 

[HIFE]

Did we watch the same series?

The Sharks were bigger, faster, and hungrier across the board. Detroit had long stretches of looking like they were in quicksand, because San Jose was getting to every loose puck, and was generating much more energy on offense in particular.

By the time they lost to them twice, I could understand if some fans felt it just a bad matchup, but I still thought they needed to add a piece to be more than just a playoff passenger. Once the Preds trucked them in 5 games, that roster needed major changes one way (reload) or the other (rebuild).

Detroit's won 1 series in 7 years and Holland thinks it might be time to look at rebuilding. Pretty keen assessment there, Kenny.

 

[ShanahanMan]

Detroit's won 1 series in 7 years and Holland thinks it might be time to look at rebuilding. Pretty keen assessment there, Kenny.

And he’s “stunned” anyone would criticize him. Signing old vets to 8 year deals.....trading away key assets......sticking with the same players over and over (how many times did we resign Quincey and Miller)....and yet he can’t possibly fathom the reason for any criticism.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

And he’s “stunned” anyone would criticize him. Signing old vets to 8 year deals.....trading away key assets......sticking with the same players over and over (how many times did we resign Quincey and Miller)....and yet he can’t possibly fathom the reason for any criticism.

How manny times did we resign Quincey and Miller? I’m pretty sure Dan Cleary was the problem.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

And he’s “stunned” anyone would criticize him. Signing old vets to 8 year deals.....trading away key assets......sticking with the same players over and over (how many times did we resign Quincey and Miller)....and yet he can’t possibly fathom the reason for any criticism.

Criticism? There are people calling for him and anyone he’s ever worked with to be fired because they’re apparently morons.

The vitriol towards Kenny Holland and the “Red Wings way” has gone far past criticism.

 

[Oddbob]

Drew Miller stopped us from being a very good team? Literally every team in the league has 4th line players like him.

 

[FMichael]

Why argue flip vs. Weiss when we can argue franzen vs. Hossa? I feel like that's a subject that's been vastly overlooked on this board.

My impression of that situation was Kenny got The Mule to sign for a pretty reasonable deal whereas he knew Hossa would/could command more $$$, and Kenny had limited cap space to work with.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

My impression of that situation was Kenny got The Mule to sign for a pretty reasonable deal whereas he knew Hossa would/could command more $$$, and Kenny had limited cap space to work with.

The Hossa v Franzen debate has been beat into the ground so hard that it has looped around a couple times. The horse was beat to death, beat so hard that it came back to life again and then clubbed back to death.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Not exactly the same, but the Blues just moved Stastny, and even seem better off for it, so things like that do sometimes happen.

I mean, they're not winning because they traded Stasny. They did not improve their team by getting rid of Paul Stastny.

 

[StargateSG1]

Criticism? There are people calling for him and anyone he’s ever worked with to be fired because they’re apparently morons.

The vitriol towards Kenny Holland and the “Red Wings way” has gone far past criticism.

He is spending 80 million on the bottom dweller 2 years in a row, somehow convincing "geniuses" like you that he assembled a playoff team.
Gee, I wonder why people think he might not be the brightest bulb!

 

[Redder Winger]

The vitriol towards Kenny Holland and the “Red Wings way” has gone far past criticism.

It only seems like that to people who minimize every dumb move he makes,

 

[Henkka]

And he’s “stunned” anyone would criticize him. Signing old vets to 8 year deals.....trading away key assets......sticking with the same players over and over (how many times did we resign Quincey and Miller)....and yet he can’t possibly fathom the reason for any criticism.

Who did he sign for an 8-year deal? What key asset did he trade away?

 

[Redder Winger]

I mean, they're not winning because they traded Stasny. They did not improve their team by getting rid of Paul Stastny.

The last two years, St. Louis has traded Stastny and Shattenkirk at the deadline, netting
Two first round picks (one of whom is promising Klim Kostin).
Zach Sanford - Decent forward prospect
Erik Foley - Who looks like a Tyler Bertuzzi type.
Two later round picks

How much further along would the Red Wings rebuild be if Holland started doing this in 2015?

 

[kliq]

The last two years, St. Louis has traded Stastny and Shattenkirk at the deadline, netting
Two first round picks (one of whom is promising Klim Kostin).
Zach Sanford - Decent forward prospect
Erik Foley - Who looks like a Tyler Bertuzzi type.
Two later round picks

How much further along would the Red Wings rebuild be if Holland started doing this in 2015?

Agreed, no doubt they would be farther along but with the streak there was no way that was ever going to happen regardless of who's call it was.

 

[Henkka]

How much further along would the Red Wings rebuild be if Holland started doing this in 2015?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/second-reality.2371777/

This is a hypothetical story if the rebuild started after 2012-13.

The key point on my story would have been trading Pavel Datsyuk to New York Rangers at 2014 deadline, on his last contract year. Rags went after Martin St. Louis, but if Datsyuk would have been available, they would have won the Cup.

 

[Redder Winger]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/second-reality.2371777/

This is a hypothetical story if the rebuild started after 2012-13.

The key point on my story would have been trading Pavel Datsyuk to New York Rangers at 2014 deadline, on his last contract year. Rags went after Martin St. Louis, but if Datsyuk would have been available, they would have won the Cup.

Yeah, I'm not even talking about about trading Datsyuk or Zetterberg - though I think Holland could have asked Z this year if he'd like to finish his career on a rebuilding team or a cup winner.

But over the years, if you start aggressively rebuilding the way the Blues have the last two years
You retain:
Jarnkrok, Janmark-Nylen
2 2nd rounders

You trade away:
Helm, Abdelkader, KFQ, Ericsson (before they sign the huge deals).
They probably net you anywhere from 2nd to 5ths on deadline deals.

You can trade away:
Kronwall - probably for a first if done 2-3 years ago.

 

[StargateSG1]

Yeah, I'm not even talking about about trading Datsyuk or Zetterberg - though I think Holland could have asked Z this year if he'd like to finish his career on a rebuilding team or a cup winner.

But over the years, if you start aggressively rebuilding the way the Blues have the last two years
You retain:
Jarnkrok, Janmark-Nylen
2 2nd rounders

You trade away:
Helm, Abdelkader, KFQ, Ericsson (before they sign the huge deals).
They probably net you anywhere from 2nd to 5ths on deadline deals.

You can trade away:
Kronwall - probably for a first if done 2-3 years ago.

You don't sign Green and Nielsen, you play the yutz and you have a shot at Mathews or Laine 2 years ago as well.

 

[BinCookin]

You don't sign Green and Nielsen, you play the yutz and you have a shot at Mathews or Laine 2 years ago as well.

You think Nielsen and Green were the ones holding us out of last?

 

[Claypool]

The last two years, St. Louis has traded Stastny and Shattenkirk at the deadline, netting
Two first round picks (one of whom is promising Klim Kostin).
Zach Sanford - Decent forward prospect
Erik Foley - Who looks like a Tyler Bertuzzi type.
Two later round picks

How much further along would the Red Wings rebuild be if Holland started doing this in 2015?

None of those prospects will ever turn out to be as good as Stastny and Shattenkirk.

 

[StargateSG1]

You think Nielsen and Green were the ones holding us out of last?

In addition to what Winger said.
Why spend 12 million on the at most possible 8th place finish and "One and Done" in playoffs, again?

 

[BinCookin]

In addition to what Winger said.
Why spend 12 million on the at most possible 8th place finish and "One and Done" in playoffs, again?

By this definition the NHL should be 8 contenders and 23 teams tanking...

 

[StargateSG1]

By this definition the NHL should be 8 contenders and 23 teams tanking...

False premise, unless you also happened to think that Green and Nielsen were "difference makers" to be contenders.

 

[BinCookin]

I personally think alot of our problems with team evaluation is no one here has ever been a fan of a regular team. We are basically the Yankees complaining about how "horrible" our "making the playoffs"
was.

Very little perspective.

Yes many of the points are true in regards to critisisms around here... but.
the attitude peeople are arguing these details with just smacks of being spoiled.

 

[BinCookin]

to be clear, I am a realist, and am currently pro tank. Before you assume my point of view, just because I slightly disagree with some posters hindsight version of history.