GDT: UFC 257: Poirier vs. McGregor 2

[GoAwayPanarin]

Having the belt means $$, correct me if I'm wrong but dont UFC Champions always has the option get a cut of PPV profits, something that only superstars like McGregor get (I believe this was the 1st time Poirer got a PPV cut, I dont believe he even got PPV share in the Khabib match and he was the #1 contender for that match).

You're right.

Many fighters have taken fights on big PPV cards while being pretty injured just to get those points.

 

[Avs_19]

If Poirier really is that set against Chandler but open to an Oliveira fight then they should just go with the latter for the belt. I wonder if it's really how he feels or a negotiating tactic though. He had his issues with the UFC prior to this fight and that's why the Ferguson fight didn't happen.

On Morning Kombat they talked about Conor's comments on the calf kicks and said that plays into the inactivity and the game evolving without him. That makes some sense so I don't necessarily disagree with but doesn't that also say a lot about his coaches? We saw Poirier use the calf kicks against Hooker and also eat some in that fight. Conor said he didn't see that strategy coming so how do you not only not prepare to defend them but also use them offensively when Hooker was effective with them? There have been some questions about Conor's camp for a little while now and this certainly doesn't help.

 

[Canes]

I don't think Kavanagh is quite Edmond Tarverdyan bad in being a yes man or a terrible coach but I think both Kavanagh and Conor got way too complacent in their training methods. But I doubt Conor ever leaves his camp or even brings in new coaches.

 

[m9]

If Poirier really is that set against Chandler but open to an Oliveira fight then they should just go with the latter for the belt. I wonder if it's really how he feels or a negotiating tactic though. He had his issues with the UFC prior to this fight and that's why the Ferguson fight didn't happen.

On Morning Kombat they talked about Conor's comments on the calf kicks and said that plays into the inactivity and the game evolving without him. That makes some sense so I don't necessarily disagree with but doesn't that also say a lot about his coaches? We saw Poirier use the calf kicks against Hooker and also eat some in that fight. Conor said he didn't see that strategy coming so how do you not only not prepare to defend them but also use them offensively when Hooker was effective with them? There have been some questions about Conor's camp for a little while now and this certainly doesn't help.

I think what Conor actually means (but probably won't say) is that he just figured he would knock out Poirier before the calf kicks really impacted the fight. He was fighting like someone who thought he was only going to be in there for 5 minutes.

 

[pistolpete11]

I think what Conor actually means (but probably won't say) is that he just figured he would knock out Poirier before the calf kicks really impacted the fight. He was fighting like someone who thought he was only going to be in there for 5 minutes.

I think there is an element of this. Conor will eventually land the left hand and everything will be fine.

But I also don't think he knew how to defend it. He seemed surprised that it was still getting stung even when he "checked it". There was a video of Poirier and he basically said "Yeah, he wasn't checking it properly." Who knows if that is coaching or maybe Conor wasn't in the gym enough. Either way he wasn't prepared for it.

 

[m9]

I think there is an element of this. Conor will eventually land the left hand and everything will be fine.

But I also don't think he knew how to defend it. He seemed surprised that it was still getting stung even when he "checked it". There was a video of Poirier and he basically said "Yeah, he wasn't checking it properly." Who knows if that is coaching or maybe Conor wasn't in the gym enough. Either way he wasn't prepared for it.

I think it's all tied together and it comes back to a guy who was overconfident for this fight. I always wondered why he would take this fight again, but the answer is probably that he thought it was a guy he already beat so he didn't need to put the training work into it. Sign the fight, get in shape, knock him out again, cash the cheque.

 

[Juniorhockeyguru]

Part-time fighter.

 

[pistolpete11]

I think it's all tied together and it comes back to a guy who was overconfident for this fight. I always wondered why he would take this fight again, but the answer is probably that he thought it was a guy he already beat so he didn't need to put the training work into it. Sign the fight, get in shape, knock him out again, cash the cheque.

I think calf kicks are a little bit more general than being over confident about a specific opponent, which he may or may not have been. It's a pretty common technique in MMA nowadays. Poirier's not the only potential opponent that throws them. As Avs said, the comments he was making about them made it seem like they completely took him by surprise. Like he wasn't aware of their effectiveness or how to defend them. They never came up in the 2 years since he rededicated himself after the loss to Khabib? So either a) his coaches failed him b) he hasn't been in the gym as much as he led us to believe c) both.

 

[chicagoskycam]

I think there is an element of this. Conor will eventually land the left hand and everything will be fine.

But I also don't think he knew how to defend it. He seemed surprised that it was still getting stung even when he "checked it". There was a video of Poirier and he basically said "Yeah, he wasn't checking it properly." Who knows if that is coaching or maybe Conor wasn't in the gym enough. Either way he wasn't prepared for it.

I’d have to go back and watch his previous fights but I don’t think anyone ever leg kicked him before, maybe one or two. It really exposes you to a punch and I’m sure most most were concerned about his power. Conor used it effectively against Nate and I’m sure he’s practiced checking kicks. Great strategy by Dustin. Until someone uses them effectively against, the fighter may not bother defending and by then it’s too late. Khabib got hit with a few nasty leg kicks from Gaethje, he then ramped it up and caught one for a takedown attempt. Conor did not adjust at all

 

[pistolpete11]

I’d have to go back and watch his previous fights but I don’t think anyone ever leg kicked him before, maybe one or two. It really exposes you to a punch and I’m sure most most were concerned about his power. Conor used it effectively against Nate and I’m sure he’s practiced checking kicks. Great strategy by Dustin. Until someone uses them effectively against, the fighter may not bother defending and by then it’s too late. Khabib got hit with a few nasty leg kicks from Gaethje, he then ramped it up and caught one for a takedown attempt. Conor did not adjust at all

I'm sure he has trained checking leg kicks, but I don't know about calf kicks and especially southpaw-on-southpaw calf kicks.

It's still a good strategy by Poirier. There's still an element of speed and timing to them, so even if Conor knew how to check them, it could still be effective. Otherwise, it wouldn't be such a widely used technique. But Conor said there were a few times he thought he checked them (which means he had the timing) but it still stung him (which means he didn't check it properly).

Sorry, but not experiencing them in a fight before is not a good excuse. That's why you train. So when something happens in a fight, you know how to respond. I don't know exactly how long it has been a widely used technique, but Poirier said he learned the lesson the hard way in his fight against Jim Miller. That was 4 years ago. They have only become more common since then. It seems to me Conor and/or his team have not kept up and evolved along with the sport.

 

[chicagoskycam]

I'm sure he has trained checking leg kicks, but I don't know about calf kicks and especially southpaw-on-southpaw calf kicks.

It's still a good strategy by Poirier. There's still an element of speed and timing to them, so even if Conor knew how to check them, it could still be effective. Otherwise, it wouldn't be such a widely used technique. But Conor said there were a few times he thought he checked them (which means he had the timing) but it still stung him (which means he didn't check it properly).

Sorry, but not experiencing them in a fight before is not a good excuse. That's why you train. So when something happens in a fight, you know how to respond. I don't know exactly how long it has been a widely used technique, but Poirier said he learned the lesson the hard way in his fight against Jim Miller. That was 4 years ago. They have only become more common since then. It seems to me Conor and/or his team have not kept up and evolved along with the sport.

Yep, I guess it comes down to Conor not being ready but the scary thing for him to admit and the UFC, he's no longer that guy. The hunger is not there and he's got so many other things he's involved in. The intimidation factor just took a huge hit with his first KO loss. It's Rocky III with no Apollo to save him. lol.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Yep, I guess it comes down to Conor not being ready but the scary thing for him to admit and the UFC, he's no longer that guy. The hunger is not there and he's got so many other things he's involved in. The intimidation factor just took a huge hit with his first KO loss. It's Rocky III with no Apollo to save him. lol.

I don't know that he's even been capable of being "the guy" in the LW division.

He leap frogged the entire division to get a title shot against an opponent who was really a favorable match up. Alvarez is a game fighter, but you could wobble him with a tickle.

He wasn't exactly knocking guys dead at 145, he TKO'd guys (Aldo is the only one he put to sleep.) Its much more likely that his power wouldn't have been the equalizer at this WC (it hasn't been so far, both Porier and Khabib have said as much) that it was in a lower one. I don't know that the rest of his skills would have been enough to make up for that. He has some nice kicks in his arsenal, but nothing overly special and as a grappler his defense is pretty solid, but he has no real offense to speak of in that regard.

The game has moved beyond him for sure though. He's got his hands in so many pots while the rest of his competition have been spending time in the gym. This is pretty reminiscent of the way things went for Ronda. Hes handled losing a zillion times better than she did, but shes another fighter who would have benefited massively from switching camps or at least doing a full camp at another gym (which is what Conor should do if he is to fight again.)

 

[bov]

I'm not expecting it to happen but if the world is just (ha!), it'll be Poirier vs Oliveira or Oliveira/Chandler winner. Let Conor fight Nate or someone else. Now I'm just curious to see if Conor still has "it". I won't say the book is out on him, but he has shown some real holes in between the spectacular moments. And what is it, 3-3 in his last 6 UFC fights? Over the span of nearly 5 years.

I can see why Kavanagh is basically begging fans to get the rematch, I don't know if Conor can get back on that grind and get to the top again.

 

[CDJ]

Conor is a unique personality with a big ego, I could see the humiliation of being knocked out in front of millions being a driving factor for him. I can still see him getting back to a title fight eventually


He clearly enjoys fighting. I can see him doing the work necessary.

 

[pistolpete11]

I don't know that he's even been capable of being "the guy" in the LW division.

He leap frogged the entire division to get a title shot against an opponent who was really a favorable match up. Alvarez is a game fighter, but you could wobble him with a tickle.

He wasn't exactly knocking guys dead at 145, he TKO'd guys (Aldo is the only one he put to sleep.) Its much more likely that his power wouldn't have been the equalizer at this WC (it hasn't been so far, both Porier and Khabib have said as much) that it was in a lower one. I don't know that the rest of his skills would have been enough to make up for that. He has some nice kicks in his arsenal, but nothing overly special and as a grappler his defense is pretty solid, but he has no real offense to speak of in that regard.

The game has moved beyond him for sure though. He's got his hands in so many pots while the rest of his competition have been spending time in the gym. This is pretty reminiscent of the way things went for Ronda. Hes handled losing a zillion times better than she did, but shes another fighter who would have benefited massively from switching camps or at least doing a full camp at another gym (which is what Conor should do if he is to fight again.)

There's gotta be a Jeremy Stephens / "Who da fook is that guy?" joke in here somewhere

I definitely think Conor's left hand has been overly mythicized because of the Aldo KO, but he still has a lot of power. The only guys he's ever beat by decision were Max and Nate who both have legendary chins, and he dropped Nate.

I think the problem with Conor's power is 3 fold:
1. As you mentioned, it's not the touch of death at LW.
2. It doesn't carry later into the fight. I think we saw in both the Khabib and Nate fights and kind of even the Mayweather fight, that when he tires out a little bit, his punches don't have the same zip on them. He kind of starts throwing arm punches.
3. The most interesting fights left for him are guys with rock chins. Poirier, Nate, Gaethje, Tony, Max. LW is full of killers and you don't make it very far up the rankings without being able to take a punch.

I think Nate is the best fight for him. Nate will probably be able to eat his shots again and he'll have to dig down to find a way to win R3, R4, or R5 to win by decision. I think those others guys have a good chance of eating his shots too, but they are more dangerous and could stop Conor ala Poirier.

 

[Killahpunk]

I would like to see Coner fight Nate Diaz or Tony Ferguson next maybe throw in Dos Anjos.

Poirier vs Oliveira/Chandler for belt.

Gaethje vs Oliveira/Chandler who ever doesn't fight Dustin next.

 

[chicagoskycam]

I would like to see Coner fight Nate Diaz or Tony Ferguson next maybe throw in Dos Anjos.

Poirier vs Oliveira/Chandler for belt.

Gaethje vs Oliveira/Chandler who ever doesn't fight Dustin next.

If Conor is serious about staying it needs to be in LW, no going up to fight Nate again if Nate doesn't want to do 155. Ferguson would be interesting but considering how Tony lost his last two fights, a Conor win might just confirm Tony is really on the downslide. I'd like to see Gaethje vs. Conor or Chandler, I guess whoever doesn't get the title shot.

 

[lebdafor norris]

I though this was some very good insight with regards to the calf kick from Chael, Conor not knowing how to check the calf kicks seems to be a bigger factor than his timing being off, even Poirer alluded in the post fight conference that Conor didn't really knew how to check those kicks. There was even a video with DC talking about how this calf kicks really only became common in the UFC recently, alluding that during the time when Conor was very active, he really didn't see much calf kicks at all as fighters would usually aim for the leg.

 

[pistolpete11]

I though this was some very good insight with regards to the calf kick from Chael, Conor not knowing how to check the calf kicks seems to be a bigger factor than his timing being off, even Poirer alluded in the post fight conference that Conor didn't really knew how to check those kicks. There was even a video with DC talking about how this calf kicks really only became common in the UFC recently, alluding that during the time when Conor was very active, he really didn't see much calf kicks at all as fighters would usually aim for the leg.

A little long winded from Chael as usual, but yeah, he gets the point across.

 

[pistolpete11]

I would like to see Coner fight Nate Diaz or Tony Ferguson next maybe throw in Dos Anjos.

Poirier vs Oliveira/Chandler for belt.

Gaethje vs Oliveira/Chandler who ever doesn't fight Dustin next.

If Conor is serious about staying it needs to be in LW, no going up to fight Nate again if Nate doesn't want to do 155. Ferguson would be interesting but considering how Tony lost his last two fights, a Conor win might just confirm Tony is really on the downslide. I'd like to see Gaethje vs. Conor or Chandler, I guess whoever doesn't get the title shot.

I think Tony is a tough, tough fight for Conor.

Tony is about as durable as they come. It took 4.5 rounds of Gaethje beating the living shit out of him to TKO him and even then, he didn't drop. I think he would eat whatever Conor threw at him and he'd put a pace on Conor that Conor couldn't keep up with for more than a round or 2. Eventually, I think Conor would wilt under the pressure and Tony would TKO him with a flurry of punches and elbows.

@HawksFan74 , Dana said Nate was dropping back down to 155. The speculation was against Gaethje, but I think the UFC's plans were that Conor was going to beat Poirier. Now that he didn't, it might change things. I think it makes sense for it to be at 155, though. Either of those guys win and you could reasonable put them into a title shot at 155 in their next fight.

 

[m9]

I will stand by my thought that the UFC simply follows the money here:

Conor v Poirier 3 (LW belt)
Chandler v Oliveira
Diaz v Gaethje
Hooker v Ferguson

If Diaz does his usual thing, they do Gaethje v Dos Anjos instead.

 

[chicagoskycam]

I think Tony is a tough, tough fight for Conor.

Tony is about as durable as they come. It took 4.5 rounds of Gaethje beating the living shit out of him to TKO him and even then, he didn't drop. I think he would eat whatever Conor threw at him and he'd put a pace on Conor that Conor couldn't keep up with for more than a round or 2. Eventually, I think Conor would wilt under the pressure and Tony would TKO him with a flurry of punches and elbows.

This is all a valid good point, I guess that last fight Tony looked really bad to me and maybe it's because he has not fully recovered from the beat down Gaethje gave him. I'd like to see it, it could be a defining moment for both of them where whoever loses might be done.

 

[chicagoskycam]

I will stand by my thought that the UFC simply follows the money here:

Conor v Poirier 3 (LW belt)
Chandler v Oliveira
Diaz v Gaethje
Hooker v Ferguson

If Diaz does his usual thing, they do Gaethje v Dos Anjos instead.

I just can't see Conor getting the title shot after that loss and so much inactivity.

 

[pistolpete11]

This is all a valid good point, I guess that last fight Tony looked really bad to me and maybe it's because he has not fully recovered from the beat down Gaethje gave him. I'd like to see it, it could be a defining moment for both of them where whoever loses might be done.

Tony-Oliveira was largely fought on the ground, though. Oliveira had nearly 4min of control time in each round. So Tony looked bad, but that's not how the fight would go against Conor. Also, gotta remember Tony's arm was likely compromised after that arm bar attempt in R1.

I think Conor-Nate 1 is the closest approximation of how Conor-Tony would go. The differences to me are that Tony is a little bit higher pace and more dangerous offensively, especially with elbows. Conor may bust him up early, but I think Tony would survive and eventually wear him out...even if it is a little bit of the Homer Simpson approach. I usually don't put my money where my mouth is, but if Conor was the favorite in that fight, I'd have to find somewhere to put a little on Tony.

Who knows, though? Maybe Tony's age and the damage he has taken is starting to catch up to him and Conor puts him out.

 

[pistolpete11]

I will stand by my thought that the UFC simply follows the money here:

Conor v Poirier 3 (LW belt)
Chandler v Oliveira
Diaz v Gaethje
Hooker v Ferguson

If Diaz does his usual thing, they do Gaethje v Dos Anjos instead.

From the UFC's point of view, I'm starting to come around to this idea. I still don't like it, mind you, but I can see how it makes them the most money.

Looking around at the options, I don't know that I like any of them for Conor to be honest. Nate is probably his best bet, but I mean he squeaked out a win the last time, so it's not guaranteed he beats Nate. Why risk him losing just to pick up a win to put him in a title fight when you could just put him into a title fight? If I squint, I can kind of justify it since he has the win over Poirier all those years ago. Would not mind Poirier getting another big payday either.

Plus, even if he loses to Poirier again, Conor-Nate 3 still sells. If Conor fights Nate next and loses, there's not much left for him.

The one option that I haven't thought about until now is Oliveira. I don't think it's a big enough name, so I think it is unlikely, but I don't know how that fight would go. Oliveira is clearly a better all around fighter than Conor, but I don't know that his chin has been tested at LW. Oliveira might be the best bet for a one shot KO which might be Conor's best bet to pick up a win.