GDT: UFC 257: Poirier vs. McGregor 2

m9

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If Dustin wants to fight Conor again to cash in, just have Oliviera v Gaethje for the vacant belt.

Neither Gaethje or Conor deserve the shot, and Poirier deserves it more than Oliveira. So while I get what you're saying, I don't think that fight deserves it anymore than Poirier/Conor.
 

Perennial

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Some people are saying Oliveira doesn't deserve a title shot because his list of opponents isn't that great...

Well, neither is Burns' list of opponents, and he's fighting for the belt this Saturday
 

darko

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Neither Gaethje or Conor deserve the shot, and Poirier deserves it more than Oliveira. So while I get what you're saying, I don't think that fight deserves it anymore than Poirier/Conor.

Poirier absolutely deserves it but just doesn't seem interested and only wants $. It's not fair on Oliviera who deserves a title shot.
 

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Gaethje has fought better competition but also has lost for the most part to that better competition.

Starting before the Khabib loss, Geathje beat Ferguon, Cerrone, Edson Barboza, and James Vick after his back to back losses to Poirier and Eddie Alvarez. All those wins were finishes. The TKO against Ferguson was called at 3:39 of the 5th round.

For Oliveira, after his last loss (to Paul Felder), he has beat:

Ferguon, Kevin Lee, Jared Gordon, Nik Lentz, David Teymur, Jim Miller, Christos Glagos, and Clay Guida. All finishes except for against Ferguson. But it was only a 3 round fight, and pretty dominant. You can't say for sure he'd have gotten a submission or TKO quicker than Gaethje if it was 5 rounds, but I consider them equivalent victories since neither had him finished through 3.

If we ignore the bigger names Gaethje fought since he lost to them and toss the common victory, what impresses you more?

Cerrone, Barboza, Vick

or

Lee, Jared Gordon, Lentz, Teymur, Jim Miller, Glagos, and Guida

People want to dog on Oliveira's strength of victories, but Vick is the living embodiment of CTE and Cerrone has never shown up in a big fight. I will take the bigger pile of meh, lol.

=====================

This is very wordy, but you tell Poirier he gets to choose cash or strap, but tell him there is no chance in hell he fights for the belt next if it is against Mr. Losing Record in the weight class. Like come on, people. Conor's only win at 155 is against Alvarez since he left Cage Warriors! If DP wants to fight him to chase money, have at it.

My order of preference for fighting for the belt is:

Poirier v Oliveira

Then Gaethje v Chandler for #1 contender fight.

If Poirier wants to go fight Conor for the money instead, he has earned it. If they go that route, flip a coin of who to bump up to fight Oliveira between the other two and have the leftover guy fight Dariush.

Frankly, Dana needs to get it through his fat tomato can head that Khabib is done and get the f***ing division going.
 
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chicagoskycam

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Poirier absolutely deserves it but just doesn't seem interested and only wants $. It's not fair on Oliviera who deserves a title shot.

I wouldn't say he's not interested, Dustin is not determining the fights here, that's on Dana. This is all about Dana creating more time for Khabib to get bored and change his mind about fighting. Dana is just stalling on stripping him of the belt. You might say it's a sign of respect or giving Khabib a bit more time due to his Dad. At some point, you just have to strip him until he wants to come back.

I bet Dana told Dustin," if we don't' hear from Khabib a bit before this fight goes off, it's for the belt. If we do the winner fights Khabib. In the meantime, you get another payday with Conor, the guy you just waxed in two rounds. Okay, deal?"

Dana also wants to capitalize on Conor before he decides he's going to the WWE or something.
 
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pistolpete11

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Gaethje has fought better competition but also has lost for the most part to that better competition.

Starting before the Khabib loss, Geathje beat Ferguon, Cerrone, Edson Barboza, and James Vick after his back to back losses to Poirier and Eddie Alvarez. All those wins were finishes. The TKO against Ferguson was called at 3:39 of the 5th round.

For Oliveira, after his last loss (to Paul Felder), he has beat:

Ferguon, Kevin Lee, Jared Gordon, Nik Lentz, David Teymur, Jim Miller, Christos Glagos, and Clay Guida. All finishes except for against Ferguson. But it was only a 3 round fight, and pretty dominant. You can't say for sure he'd have gotten a submission or TKO quicker than Gaethje if it was 5 rounds, but I consider them equivalent victories since neither had him finished through 3.

If we ignore the bigger names Gaethje fought since he lost to them and toss the common victory, what impresses you more?

Cerrone, Barboza, Vick

or

Lee, Jared Gordon, Lentz, Teymur, Jim Miller, Glagos, and Guida

People want to dog on Oliveira's strength of victories, but Vick is the living embodiment of CTE and Cerrone has never shown up in a big fight. I will take the bigger pile of meh, lol.

=====================

This is very wordy, but you tell Poirier he gets to choose cash or strap, but tell him there is no chance in hell he fights for the belt next if it is against Mr. Losing Record in the weight class. Like come on, people. Conor's only win at 155 is against Alvarez since he left Cage Warriors! If DP wants to fight him to chase money, have at it.

My order of preference for fighting for the belt is:

Poirier v Oliveira

Then Gaethje v Chandler for #1 contender fight.

If Poirier wants to go fight Conor for the money instead, he has earned it. If they go that route, flip a coin of who to bump up to fight Oliveira between the other two and have the leftover guy fight Dariush.

Frankly, Dana needs to get it through his fat tomato can head that Khabib is done and get the f***ing division going.
This is a bit revisionist history, though.

Vick is kind of a joke now, but he was ranked and was 9-1 in the UFC when he fought Gaethje. Barboza is always a solid win. Cowboy had lost to Tony, but had beat Hernandez and Ragin' Al after moving back down to LW before that. Those guys were both top 15, Al might have been top 10. And Gaethje beat Tony when Tony was supposed to be fighting for the belt. It was a no brainer for him to get the title shot.

Oliveira deserves credit for beating Tony certainly, but it's not as impressive after we saw the ass whopping Gaethje put on him. Lee is also a solid win, but he's so inconsistent. The rest, I don't care about. Those guys are all unranked and many way past their primes. You put Gaethje against those guys and he smashes all of them. It never made sense to me that Oliveira kept fighting these guys. You beat a couple and you should be moving up the rankings. He fought 6 of them in a row. Even when he beat Lee, I remember them talking about Dariush as his next opponent who was ranked below him. 7 fight win streak. Ranked top 10. And he was looking to fight someone in the 10-15 range.

I'm fine if he fights Poirier for the belt next, but it's not some undeniable resume he's built. If he gets the shot, it's because there's no other great options. And with him turning down Chandler twice now, the UFC may decide to skip him and if they do, I'm fine with that, too.
 
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pistolpete11

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I wouldn't say he's not interested, Dustin is not determining the fights here, that's on Dana. This is all about Dana creating more time for Khabib to get bored and change his mind about fighting. Dana is just stalling on stripping him of the belt. You might say it's a sign of respect or giving Khabib a bit more time due to his Dad. At some point, you just have to strip him until he wants to come back.

I bet Dana told Dustin," if we don't' hear from Khabib a bit before this fight goes off, it's for the belt. If we do the winner fights Khabib. In the meantime, you get another payday with Conor, the guy you just waxed in two rounds. Okay, deal?"

Dana also wants to capitalize on Conor before he decides he's going to the WWE or something.
If they won't strip Khabib, just make Poirier-whoever for the interim belt. Have them defend the interim belt like it's the real belt until Dana gives up or Khabib gives in.
 
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m9

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This is a bit revisionist history, though.

Vick is kind of a joke now, but he was ranked and was 9-1 in the UFC when he fought Gaethje. Barboza is always a solid win. Cowboy had lost to Tony, but had beat Hernandez and Ragin' Al after moving back down to LW before that. Those guys were both top 15, Al might have been top 10. And Gaethje beat Tony when Tony was supposed to be fighting for the belt. It was a no brainer for him to get the title shot.

Oliveira deserves credit for beating Tony certainly, but it's not as impressive after we saw the ass whopping Gaethje put on him. Lee is also a solid win, but he's so inconsistent. The rest, I don't care about. Those guys are all unranked and many way past their primes. You put Gaethje against those guys and he smashes all of them. It never made sense to me that Oliveira kept fighting these guys. You beat a couple and you should be moving up the rankings. He fought 6 of them in a row. Even when he beat Lee, I remember them talking about Dariush as his next opponent who was ranked below him. 7 fight win streak. Ranked top 10. And he was looking to fight someone in the 10-15 range.

I'm fine if he fights Poirier for the belt next, but it's not some undeniable resume he's built. If he gets the shot, it's because there's no other great options. And with him turning down Chandler twice now, the UFC may decide to skip him and if they do, I'm fine with that, too.

Exactly this, well said. Whenever this topic is inevitably brought up again, I'm just going to steal this post and pretend I said it.
 
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This is a bit revisionist history, though.

Vick is kind of a joke now, but he was ranked and was 9-1 in the UFC when he fought Gaethje. Barboza is always a solid win. Cowboy had lost to Tony, but had beat Hernandez and Ragin' Al after moving back down to LW before that. Those guys were both top 15, Al might have been top 10. And Gaethje beat Tony when Tony was supposed to be fighting for the belt. It was a no brainer for him to get the title shot.

Oliveira deserves credit for beating Tony certainly, but it's not as impressive after we saw the ass whopping Gaethje put on him. Lee is also a solid win, but he's so inconsistent. The rest, I don't care about. Those guys are all unranked and many way past their primes. You put Gaethje against those guys and he smashes all of them. It never made sense to me that Oliveira kept fighting these guys. You beat a couple and you should be moving up the rankings. He fought 6 of them in a row. Even when he beat Lee, I remember them talking about Dariush as his next opponent who was ranked below him. 7 fight win streak. Ranked top 10. And he was looking to fight someone in the 10-15 range.

I'm fine if he fights Poirier for the belt next, but it's not some undeniable resume he's built. If he gets the shot, it's because there's no other great options. And with him turning down Chandler twice now, the UFC may decide to skip him and if they do, I'm fine with that, too.
I don't believe it is revionist history to use knowledge gained since a fight to further contextualize someone's record (look at what a victory over Till now would mean versus a few years ago, for example). If you want to say Gaethje is going to smash all the guys Oliveira fought, that's fine. I will just point out Oliveira finished all of them except Tony (which again, Justin didn't finish either in the first three rounds. I actually just checked the scorecards and through 3 it was Gaethje up 29-28, 29-28, and 30-27 over Tony while Oliveira won by straight 30-26s, so yeah, I'd call them comparable wins since Charles was more dominant through the first 15 minutes. We can agree to disagree on that, though. ) And if we look at it the other way, I do feel confident Oliveira would beat Cerrone, Barboza, and Vick as well.

I did not say it was undeniable that Oliviera fights for the belt next. Only that when examining what they (he and Justin) have done, including context for their fights, since their respective last losses (ignoring Khabib in the title fight for Jutsine), I think Oliveira deserves a title shot now as much as Justin did then when he got his. I literally said I prefer his "bigger pile of meh" accomplishments to Justin's. The biggest problem in the division currently is Dana holding out for Khabib to come back, and historically was how relatively infrequently Khabib fought. After he beat RDA in April 2014, Khabib only fought 7 more times total in his career!

At the end of the day, someone has to fight for the belt. As I laid out in my post, I think it should be Poirier versus Oliveira, if not then slot up one of Gaethje or Chandler to fight Oliveira and have Dariush fight the other guy.

As for your last paragraph, it seems you agree with my last post in this thread too:

Another thing about Oliveira is that, if you want to be the man, you are going to have to fight the top guys anyway. If he is that confident in his skillset and all, take whoever they offer you that is top-ranked. For a belt or not, a win (and finish) of any of Gaethje, Poirier, Chandler, etc...makes it that much more clear he is the man.

I respect trying to angle for the belt next, but don't go f***ing yourself over and mishandling your way right out of contention. Because as much as most folks are down with him fighting DP for the title (count me among them), I am not going to be too upset if it ends up being some other top combo due to them being amenable.
 

pistolpete11

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I don't believe it is revionist history to use knowledge gained since a fight to further contextualize someone's record (look at what a victory over Till now would mean versus a few years ago, for example). If you want to say Gaethje is going to smash all the guys Oliveira fought, that's fine. I will just point out Oliveira finished all of them except Tony (which again, Justin didn't finish either in the first three rounds. I actually just checked the scorecards and through 3 it was Gaethje up 29-28, 29-28, and 30-27 over Tony while Oliveira won by straight 30-26s, so yeah, I'd call them comparable wins since Charles was more dominant through the first 15 minutes. We can agree to disagree on that, though. ) And if we look at it the other way, I do feel confident Oliveira would beat Cerrone, Barboza, and Vick as well.

I did not say it was undeniable that Oliviera fights for the belt next. Only that when examining what they (he and Justin) have done, including context for their fights, since their respective last losses (ignoring Khabib in the title fight for Jutsine), I think Oliveira deserves a title shot now as much as Justin did then when he got his. I literally said I prefer his "bigger pile of meh" accomplishments to Justin's. The biggest problem in the division currently is Dana holding out for Khabib to come back, and historically was how relatively infrequently Khabib fought. After he beat RDA in April 2014, Khabib only fought 7 more times total in his career!

At the end of the day, someone has to fight for the belt. As I laid out in my post, I think it should be Poirier versus Oliveira, if not then slot up one of Gaethje or Chandler to fight Oliveira and have Dariush fight the other guy.

As for your last paragraph, it seems you agree with my last post in this thread too:
That's the definition of revisionist history :laugh:

You have to look where they were when they were fighting. Gaethje beat Vick (#10), Barboza (#6), Cowboy (#4), and Tony (#1). 4 straight finishes against top 10 competition, 3 by 1st round KO and one against a guy that had never been finished in the UFC, is not 'meh'. It's title shot worthy. If you want to say it hasn't aged well, OK, but that's revisionist history.
 
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That's the definition of revisionist history :laugh:

You have to look where they were when they were fighting. Gaethje beat Vick (#10), Barboza (#6), Cowboy (#4), and Tony (#1). 4 straight finishes against top 10 competition, 3 by 1st round KO and one against a guy that had never been finished in the UFC, is not 'meh'. It's title shot worthy. If you want to say it hasn't aged well, OK, but that's revisionist history.
You are focused on the wrong part, man. Gaethje was the most deserving of a title shot at the time he had one. He is not at this point in time. The aging of the wins is part of that.
 

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