GDT: UFC 254: Khabib vs. Gaethje

[CDJ]

Putting two and two together from different content I’ve read and heard Khabib had mumps at the start of camp and couldn’t train for awhile

 

[Chaels Arms]

Bones' fight against Machida is one of my all time favorite fights to watch. His fight vs Vitor as well. There's something sociopathic about Bones when he talks sometimes that makes him incredibly scary. After the Vitor fight when he told Joe Rogan he was waiting for his arm to snap and was not going to tap when Vitor had him in an armbar in the first round he seriously and truly meant that. A lot of fighters say stuff like that but Bones wasn't kidding.

 

[SuperScript29]

So the UFC moved Khabib to #1 P4P list and folks like Dana and Rogan are calling him the GOAT. Of course this is driving Jones crazy and he's being all butt hurt about it. This smells like the Leon Edwards situation, Dana you evil genius you, way to go motivating Jon Jones

 

[pistolpete11]

Something Luke Thomas brought up that I thought was an interesting point- With the other GOATS the gap always started to narrow over time, with Khabib the gap between him and his peers is still growing. You can argue that it’s because he didn’t stick around long enough and that’s kind of fair but it’s just outrageous that somebody this dominant is still improving. Like at no point did he have anybody closing in on him skill-wise...he was way out ahead of everybody and instead of maintaining he kept improving



I personally I will call him my pound for pound GOAT because I think a heavyweight Khabib is more dangerous than a nuclear arsenal and would probably rule over all of Europe if not the world....but you can make many arguments for many guys though. It’s a lot easier to compare across weight classes, where Khabib is the unquestioned 155 GOAT

Luke also put him at #4 on his GOAT list.

As I said in my previous post, which I posted before I saw MK this week BTW, I think there is a distinction to be made between GOAT and most dominant. Seems like that is kind of Luke's rationale as well. Khabib is the most dominant champ I've seen, but the numbers in terms of wins in the UFC and title defenses simply aren't there compared to guys like Jones, GSP, and Anderson. I personally would put Khabib above Anderson and Mighty Mouse because of the level of competition, but it might also be an example of recency bias.

 

[SuperScript29]

Luke also put him at #4 on his GOAT list.

As I said in my previous post, which I posted before I saw MK this week BTW, I think there is a distinction to be made between GOAT and most dominant. Seems like that is kind of Luke's rationale as well. Khabib is the most dominant champ I've seen, but the numbers in terms of wins in the UFC and title defenses simply aren't there compared to guys like Jones, GSP, and Anderson. I personally would put Khabib above Anderson and Mighty Mouse because of the level of competition, but it might also be an example of recency bias.

Yea that's how I see it too, Khabib definitely seems like the most dominant champ we've seen but unless he keeps going you're always gonna have that "what if" argument. Here's an interesting fact about Jones, just like Khabib in his first 13 fights in the UFC he was just as dominant and never lost a single round until his fight with Gus, and I'd argue that his run was even more impressive given that 6 of those appearances were for the world title and 9 of them he was the main event, so he was in the spotlight for much longer and in a very stacked division as well.

The more I think about it the more I realize that Khabib has quite a lot to do to actually catch Jones' career. He's a great champ and definitely the best LW of all time, but GOAT? No.

 

[I am not exposed]

So the UFC moved Khabib to #1 P4P list and folks like Dana and Rogan are calling him the GOAT. Of course this is driving Jones crazy and he's being all butt hurt about it. This smells like the Leon Edwards situation, Dana you evil genius you, way to go motivating Jon Jones

Rogan will be calling someone else GOAT next week.

 

[Chaels Arms]

Khabib should be #1 in the P4P rankings right now. He's decimated everything in his path. I think if Jones gets a clear win against anyone in the top 5 of the HW division he probably retakes the #1 ranking.

 

[BGDDYKWL]

Jones needs to shut the hell up. The complaining about the P4P rankings makes him even more unlikable (which I wasn't even sure was possible).

The guy is undefeated, I'd argue he's been more dominant than Jones, and his Dad just died for God's sake. Can this piece of garbage ever take the high road?

 

[CDJ]

Jones needs to shut the hell up. The complaining about the P4P rankings makes him even more unlikable (which I wasn't even sure was possible).

The guy is undefeated, I'd argue he's been more dominant than Jones, and his Dad just died for God's sake. Can this piece of garbage ever take the high road?

he also hasn’t arguably lost his last 3 fights like Jones has

Anthony Smith should have taken the DQ and gone full bad guy

 

[YNWA14]

Watching Jon Jones implode over Khabib taking the P4P title is almost as good as watching Khabib earn it. **** Jon Jones. Guy is a clown. His resume is also not as good as it's made out to be. He posted a screenshot of Evans/Machida/Rampage/Shogun as being 'elite' competition. Two of those guys lost to Forrest Griffin (one of my favourite fighters of all time, but come on). Machida was destroyed by one of the guys that lost to Forrest and Evans was getting pieced up by him until he got knocked out but let's be real...Rashad Evans was never elite (the guy lost to Tito Ortiz (not officially, but he lost) and had a split decision with Michael Bisping lol).

Title defenses are pretty arbitrary (look at some of the fighters to hold, or challenge for a title). Khabib's 3 defences are all more impressive than any of Jones' defenses (especially when you factor in Jones arguably lost to both Gus and Dominic). I don't know that there's ever been a fighter as dominant as Khabib in the octagon, and was he even asking to be called the greatest of all time? Pretty sure he just wanted P4P which, especially when taking Jones' recent lackluster performances into account, is pretty much undeniable at this point. There's multiple fighters that should be ahead of Jones P4P at the moment including Adesanya and Volkanovski.

Anyway, Khabib also doesn't pulse so he has that going for him.

 

[darko]

Rubbish. Jones is a drug cheat and just a shit person but no one can deny his resume. Sonnen, Belfort, Evans, Rampage, Rua are just some of the guys at peak or close to it that Jones beat. Some have DC in conversations as GOAT yet Jones defeated him twice. Jones did what Khabib did (clean out the division) few years before Khabib although Khabib did it in a slightly more dominant fashion.

 

[darko]

Don't let Jones hate get in the way what a spectacular and dominant athlete he was/is.

 

[darko]

he also hasn’t arguably lost his last 3 fights like Jones has

Anthony Smith should have taken the DQ and gone full bad guy

Except he hasn't.

Reyes won the first 2, round 3 was a toss up and Jones won last 2. I would've scored it a draw.

Thiago won 1st round and was outstruck the rest of the way. Win Jones.

Jones easily beat Smith. 125-36 strikes and Jones had takedowns. Not sure what fight you were watching.

 

[CDJ]

Except he hasn't.

Reyes won the first 2, round 3 was a toss up and Jones won last 2. I would've scored it a draw.

Thiago won 1st round and was outstruck the rest of the way. Win Jones.

Jones easily beat Smith. 125-36 strikes and Jones had takedowns. Not sure what fight you were watching.

Unless you are giving a 10-8 round it is impossible to score it a draw. Reyes won that fight. Honestly can’t believe one judge had 49-46 Jones, that’s criminal. Forgot about that

I think Thiago beat him. Jon may have “outstruck” him but it was pretty much all push kicks. I thought Thiago was landing better and applying pressure the entire fight.

I was very clearly tongue-in-cheek about Anthony Smith and I said he should have taken the DQ. I mean I started the entire post off with a wink emoji

 

[m9]

Unless you are giving a 10-8 round it is impossible to score it a draw. Reyes won that fight. Honestly can’t believe one judge had 49-46 Jones, that’s criminal. Forgot about that

I think Thiago beat him. Jon may have “outstruck” him but it was pretty much all push kicks. I thought Thiago was landing better and applying pressure the entire fight.

I was very clearly tongue-in-cheek about Anthony Smith and I said he should have taken the DQ. I mean I started the entire post off with a wink emoji

How one person (you) judges a fight is pretty irrelevant, and even moreso when it involves Santos who you've described as your favorite fighter. Using mmadecisions, the vast majority of people had Jones winning the Santos fight. It was far from an impressive performance, but most are in agreement he won.

 

[m9]

Watching Jon Jones implode over Khabib taking the P4P title is almost as good as watching Khabib earn it. **** Jon Jones. Guy is a clown. His resume is also not as good as it's made out to be. He posted a screenshot of Evans/Machida/Rampage/Shogun as being 'elite' competition. Two of those guys lost to Forrest Griffin (one of my favourite fighters of all time, but come on). Machida was destroyed by one of the guys that lost to Forrest and Evans was getting pieced up by him until he got knocked out but let's be real...Rashad Evans was never elite (the guy lost to Tito Ortiz (not officially, but he lost) and had a split decision with Michael Bisping lol).

Title defenses are pretty arbitrary (look at some of the fighters to hold, or challenge for a title). Khabib's 3 defences are all more impressive than any of Jones' defenses (especially when you factor in Jones arguably lost to both Gus and Dominic). I don't know that there's ever been a fighter as dominant as Khabib in the octagon, and was he even asking to be called the greatest of all time? Pretty sure he just wanted P4P which, especially when taking Jones' recent lackluster performances into account, is pretty much undeniable at this point. There's multiple fighters that should be ahead of Jones P4P at the moment including Adesanya and Volkanovski.

Anyway, Khabib also doesn't pulse so he has that going for him.

This post is pure garbage. Jones has the best resume in MMA history and trying to discredit his wins like this is pretty embarrassing.

There are plenty of other ways to discredit him if you want, but this isn't it.

 

[pistolpete11]

P4P is yet another distinction for me. The P4P rankings are a snapshot in time just like the rest of the rankings. It is much more "what have you done lately?" Right now, yes, Khabib is the #1 P4P fighter because he finished his last 3 opponents in impressive fashion. Jones has squeaked by with some decisions.

 

[CDJ]

How one person (you) judges a fight is pretty irrelevant, and even moreso when it involves Santos who you've described as your favorite fighter. Using mmadecisions, the vast majority of people had Jones winning the Santos fight. It was far from an impressive performance, but most are in agreement he won.

Nah he’s lost 3 in a row don’t @ me


Could get cut if he loses one more idk idk


22-5-1, Jon “Lorenz Larkin on steroids” Jones


I do like that you remembered that Santos is my fav fighter though #props

 

[pistolpete11]

Watching Jon Jones implode over Khabib taking the P4P title is almost as good as watching Khabib earn it. **** Jon Jones. Guy is a clown. His resume is also not as good as it's made out to be. He posted a screenshot of Evans/Machida/Rampage/Shogun as being 'elite' competition. Two of those guys lost to Forrest Griffin (one of my favourite fighters of all time, but come on). Machida was destroyed by one of the guys that lost to Forrest and Evans was getting pieced up by him until he got knocked out but let's be real...Rashad Evans was never elite (the guy lost to Tito Ortiz (not officially, but he lost) and had a split decision with Michael Bisping lol).

Title defenses are pretty arbitrary (look at some of the fighters to hold, or challenge for a title). Khabib's 3 defences are all more impressive than any of Jones' defenses (especially when you factor in Jones arguably lost to both Gus and Dominic). I don't know that there's ever been a fighter as dominant as Khabib in the octagon, and was he even asking to be called the greatest of all time? Pretty sure he just wanted P4P which, especially when taking Jones' recent lackluster performances into account, is pretty much undeniable at this point. There's multiple fighters that should be ahead of Jones P4P at the moment including Adesanya and Volkanovski.

Anyway, Khabib also doesn't pulse so he has that going for him.

Khabib's resume is not as good as as it is made out to be. Gaethje got KO'ed by Alvarez who lost to that guy in ONE. Poirier got KO'ed by Michael Johnson. Good fighter, but come on, Michael Johnson is at best a gatekeeper. Hardly an elite fighter and never a champion. Conor is a .500 fighter at LW and the only win was against Alvarez who we already covered. Ragin' Al is a real estate agent who took the fight on 2 days notice. Barboza lost to Dan Ige and Michael Johnson who we covered....

You could do this for literally every fighter in the UFC if you wanted. Nearly every fighter has had a bad loss or lost to a guy with a bad loss, so you could discredit every win even for all time greats like Khabib and Jones.

If you think Khabib is the GOAT, OK, but when you go as far as saying Jon Jones resume isn't even that good, you are letting your bias show and making it very easy to discredit your opinion.

 

[SuperScript29]

Watching Jon Jones implode over Khabib taking the P4P title is almost as good as watching Khabib earn it. **** Jon Jones. Guy is a clown. His resume is also not as good as it's made out to be. He posted a screenshot of Evans/Machida/Rampage/Shogun as being 'elite' competition. Two of those guys lost to Forrest Griffin (one of my favourite fighters of all time, but come on). Machida was destroyed by one of the guys that lost to Forrest and Evans was getting pieced up by him until he got knocked out but let's be real...Rashad Evans was never elite (the guy lost to Tito Ortiz (not officially, but he lost) and had a split decision with Michael Bisping lol).

You're a funny guy...

Not to be that guy, but there's a reason why MMA math sucks. You can't say fighter A sucks because he lost to random fighter B or C. Every fight is a fight and anything is possible. Any serious MMA fan who has been around knows that guys like Evans, Machida, Rampage, Belfort, etc were elite and as good if not better than the last 3 guys that Khabib beat. Don't give me this crap, you're either a super Khabib fan or you just started watching MMA.

 

[BGDDYKWL]

P4P is yet another distinction for me. The P4P rankings are a snapshot in time just like the rest of the rankings. It is much more "what have you done lately?" Right now, yes, Khabib is the #1 P4P fighter because he finished his last 3 opponents in impressive fashion. Jones has squeaked by with some decisions.

Agreed. And this is a key distinction. Jones is saying he has the better career of the two. I think most would agree. But like you said, P4P is pretty fluid. Khabib has been considerably more impressive the last couple of years than Jones.

 

[YNWA14]

Khabib's resume is not as good as as it is made out to be. Gaethje got KO'ed by Alvarez who lost to that guy in ONE. Poirier got KO'ed by Michael Johnson. Good fighter, but come on, Michael Johnson is at best a gatekeeper. Hardly an elite fighter and never a champion. Conor is a .500 fighter at LW and the only win was against Alvarez who we already covered. Ragin' Al is a real estate agent who took the fight on 2 days notice. Barboza lost to Dan Ige and Michael Johnson who we covered....

You could do this for literally every fighter in the UFC if you wanted. Nearly every fighter has had a bad loss or lost to a guy with a bad loss, so you could discredit every win even for all time greats like Khabib and Jones.

If you think Khabib is the GOAT, OK, but when you go as far as saying Jon Jones resume isn't even that good, you are letting your bias show and making it very easy to discredit your opinion.

But there's the distinction I never said that his resume isn't that good, but that it was overrated. He faced some legends of the sport absolutely, but aside from Cormier at his weaker weight class he didn't fight any of them in their primes so his fight history looks better than it actually is. When he started facing prime competition of guys who were on the up the fights were a lot closer, and again you could definitely argue he's lost a bunch of those. Khabib's title defences were all against guys on the up who had reinvented themselves and were coming off career best wins (although the Conor situation was a bit different). Talking about Poirier's record before he moved to lightweight and Gaethje before he stopped being so reckless is a bit disingenuous IMO. I've been following MMA for a long time and as dominant as Jones was it was not the same level of competition IMO. I've said before that Jones is an amazing fighter and an ATG, nobody is saying that his resume isn't that good; it's just not as good as he or his fans hype it up to be. Again, Griffin is one of my favourite fighters of all time, as was Rampage for a long time, but I don't agree that Jones is the GOAT for many reasons and while his record is impressive I think there is some context that for me makes it less impressive than it is on paper.

 

[pistolpete11]

But there's the distinction I never said that his resume isn't that good, but that it was overrated. He faced some legends of the sport absolutely, but aside from Cormier at his weaker weight class he didn't fight any of them in their primes so his fight history looks better than it actually is. When he started facing prime competition of guys who were on the up the fights were a lot closer, and again you could definitely argue he's lost a bunch of those. Khabib's title defences were all against guys on the up who had reinvented themselves and were coming off career best wins (although the Conor situation was a bit different). Talking about Poirier's record before he moved to lightweight and Gaethje before he stopped being so reckless is a bit disingenuous IMO. I've been following MMA for a long time and as dominant as Jones was it was not the same level of competition IMO. I've said before that Jones is an amazing fighter and an ATG, nobody is saying that his resume isn't that good; it's just not as good as he or his fans hype it up to be. Again, Griffin is one of my favourite fighters of all time, as was Rampage for a long time, but I don't agree that Jones is the GOAT for many reasons and while his record is impressive I think there is some context that for me makes it less impressive than it is on paper.

First of all, Poirier fought Johnson several fights after he moved to LW, so that is just factual incorrect.

Second, you clearly missed the point. Of course I'm being disingenuous, just like you are with Jones.

 

[YNWA14]

First of all, Poirier fought Johnson several fights after he moved to LW, so that is just factual incorrect.

Second, you clearly missed the point. Of course I'm being disingenuous, just like you are with Jones.

I'm not with Jones, and my bad about the first I misread about Conor/Poirier.

I wasn't being disingenuous with Jones though. I genuinely believe his record is overrated (while still fantastic, obviously). I think his dominance was impressive but I think he beat a lot of the guys he beat past their primes which makes it look better than it is.

 

[SuperScript29]

I wasn't being disingenuous with Jones though. I genuinely believe his record is overrated (while still fantastic, obviously). I think his dominance was impressive but I think he beat a lot of the guys he beat past their primes which makes it look better than it is.

Let's assume that Rampage and Belfort were past their prime, even though that was probably the best version of Belfort that Jones fought (TRT Belfort). Do these records look like past their prime to you?

Evans -->17-2-1
Machida -->17-2-0
Shogun --> 19-4-0
Teixeria --> 22-2-0
Gustafsson -->15-1-0 (18-5-0 second time)
Cormier --> 15-0-0 (19-1-0 second time)

And that's not all of them, but you get the point. The same crap can be done with Khabib's record.

I should also say that in this sport fighters go through phases, and because Jones has been defending the title longer, he has always fought those guys at a high point in their career regardless of where they were timeline wise.