GDT: UFC 254: Khabib vs. Gaethje

YNWA14

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Dec 29, 2010
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Let's assume that Rampage and Belfort were past their prime, even though that was probably the best version of Belfort that Jones fought (TRT Belfort). Do these records look like past their prime to you?

Evans -->17-2-1
Machida -->17-2-0
Shogun --> 19-4-0
Teixeria --> 22-2-0
Gustafsson -->15-1-0 (18-5-0 second time)
Cormier --> 15-0-0 (19-1-0 second time)

And that's not all of them, but you get the point. The same crap can be done with Khabib's record.

I should also say that in this sport fighters go through phases, and because Jones has been defending the title longer, he has always fought those guys at a high point in their career regardless of where they were timeline wise.
So again I think this requires context. Yes, Rampage and Belfort were clearly not at the top of their game IMO, especially Rampage who looked like he just didn't care anymore (prime Rampage never loses to Forrest or Rashad IMO, but he probably still loses to Jones).

Machida had lost 2 of his last 3 fights when he fought Jones (including a brutal KO, and a past it Rampage), and his win to get him back there was a KO over a 75 year old Randy Couture (beautiful kick though). Shogun had lost to Griffin and Machida (though he was impressive in getting that one back) and his only other two wins at that time were over Liddell and Coleman...I mean, a lot of people who have followed the sport for a long time thought Shogun was past it by the time he even fought Forrest (though that was hindsight when he lost). He never looked as good as he did in Pride in the UFC, though again...the sport evolves. Records don't tell a whole story (again, Jones could easily have multiple losses on his record by a lot of accounts).

Evans was never elite, I had already mentioned Gustafsson and Cormier, but Teixeira was another solid win. Again, I wasn't saying that Jones' record wasn't good or that he isn't an ATG, but it's overrated. His longevity is something that will obviously be commended and looked at in an ATG discussion but, of course, there are a lot of asterisks there. I also don't agree that just because someone gets a title shot means they're at a high point (as demonstrated above, I could bring a ton of examples of this but we all know that the title path/rankings are dubious at best). Khabib is more dominant, and became more dominant as time went on. Maybe there would be some faltering if he kept fighting maybe not...but he definitely deserves that P4P #1.
 

CDJ

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Or you can just think a guy that debatably lost one round his entire career in the toughest division in the sport is a generational talent

I think the difference in talent between Khabib And his peers at 155 is greater than the different in talent than Jon Jones and his peers at 205. There really isn’t a lot you can say to dispute that statement other than play hypotheticals about what could have happened if Khabib continued. Fact of the matter is he lost a singular round and even that is debatable


Honestly the same kind of argument is happening on the bruins board in regards to Brady/Belichick. It’s kind of a pointless endeavor to discuss it at length because people weigh certain things differently. It’s not black and white. Some people value dominance. Some people weigh PED’s differently. Some people value longevity. Some people have differing opinions on where MMA is now vs 10 years ago. Some people value lightweight today more, some people value light heavy back then more. Too many variables with too many legitimate arguments to come to a conclusive answer. Hell one of those variables is that Jones lucked into an early title shot while the ufc held Khabib back from Conor for longer than they should have in an effort to protect their golden goose. Not that Jones still wouldn’t have him beat in title defenses- he absolutely still would- but it just goes to show there is a lot of nuance involved in the discussion
 
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I am not exposed

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Or you can just think a guy that debatably lost one round his entire career in the toughest division in the sport is a generational talent

I think the difference in talent between Khabib And his peers at 155 is greater than the different in talent than Jon Jones and his peers at 205. There really isn’t a lot you can say to dispute that statement other than play hypotheticals about what could have happened if Khabib continued. Fact of the matter is he lost a singular round and even that is debatable


Honestly the same kind of argument is happening on the bruins board in regards to Brady/Belichick. It’s kind of a pointless endeavor to discuss it at length because people weigh certain things differently. It’s not black and white. Some people value dominance. Some people weigh PED’s differently. Some people value longevity. Some people have differing opinions on where MMA is now vs 10 years ago. Some people value lightweight today more, some people value light heavy back then more. Too many variables with too many legitimate arguments

Two now. Although both are debatable. Actually, the one against Justin was just wrong imo. Can't remember the Conor one, but it was close.
 
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CDJ

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Two now. Although both are debatable. Actually, the one against Justin was just wrong imo. Can't remember the Conor one, but it was close.

that’s the way I look at it. I haven’t seen a single person say Gaethje won round. I would honestly love to hear the two judges reasoning because I don’t see a viable argument.

I remember the Conor one- you could definitely score it for Conor but Khabib was never in any danger and it seemed like he was just taking the round off for his final push after mauling him for the prior 10 minutes. And even when taking that into account they could have easily scored it for Khabib and people probably wouldn’t really bat an eye. Was a close round and it did nothing to really change the direction of the fight. If anything it just gassed Conor out more for the inevitable result that shortly followed. The fat lady started singing the second Khabib dropped Conor in that fight, and honestly she probably started singing before that
 

pistolpete11

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I'm not with Jones, and my bad about the first I misread about Conor/Poirier.

I wasn't being disingenuous with Jones though. I genuinely believe his record is overrated (while still fantastic, obviously). I think his dominance was impressive but I think he beat a lot of the guys he beat past their primes which makes it look better than it is.
Even if I grant you those guys were over the hill:

DC (x2), Gus (x2), Glover > Gaethje, Poirier, Conor

Shogun, Rampage, Machida, Vitor, Chael, Rashad, Bader, OSP, Santos, etc. >>> RDA, Iaqunita, Barboza, Johnson, Horcher, etc.

I didn't include Reyes, because I think he lost that fight, but also he didn't.


Khabib is dominant, but he just didn't fight enough to be the GOAT, not with Jones around and I'd argue GSP as well.
 
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YNWA14

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Even if I grant you those guys were over the hill:

DC (x2), Gus (x2), Glover > Gaethje, Poirier, Conor

Shogun, Rampage, Machida, Vitor, Chael, Rashad, Bader, OSP, Santos, etc. >>> RDA, Iaqunita, Barboza, Johnson, Horcher, etc.

I didn't include Reyes, because I think he lost that fight, but also he didn't.

Khabib is dominant, but he just didn't fight enough to be the GOAT, not with Jones around and I'd argue GSP as well.

I don't think I was arguing that Khabib was the GOAT, but even still I think that he has a case. I just think that Jones' resume is overrated and that just because he had a lot of title defences doesn't necessarily mean the quality of those fights was 'elite'. I think the wins over DC are the most impressive for Jones, but even then I don't think that's a 'top version' of DC who has to kill himself to make that cut and he's in terrible shape even at heavyweight. Though again, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of making up an excuse for every opponent Jones has ever faced; he's done what he's needed to do with the people in front of him (though again, I don't think he actually won every fight). I also think that lightweight in general is just of a higher level than LHW, and have always thought this.

Jones has the longevity and obviously a larger number of fights/title defences in the UFC but in terms of dominance and who I think is better I would say Khabib (relative to competition).
 

SuperScript29

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I don't think I was arguing that Khabib was the GOAT, but even still I think that he has a case. I just think that Jones' resume is overrated and that just because he had a lot of title defences doesn't necessarily mean the quality of those fights was 'elite'. I think the wins over DC are the most impressive for Jones, but even then I don't think that's a 'top version' of DC who has to kill himself to make that cut and he's in terrible shape even at heavyweight. Though again, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of making up an excuse for every opponent Jones has ever faced; he's done what he's needed to do with the people in front of him (though again, I don't think he actually won every fight). I also think that lightweight in general is just of a higher level than LHW, and have always thought this.

Jones has the longevity and obviously a larger number of fights/title defences in the UFC but in terms of dominance and who I think is better I would say Khabib (relative to competition).

Look, I like Khabib a lot and I think if he continues to fight he has a great chance of getting there. But his resume at the moment is slightly ahead of Israel Adesanya and definitely behind Jones/GSP/Silva. GOATS stay in the highlight for much longer periods, that's what makes them GOATS. Khabib only headlined 4 events, Jones and Silva both headlined 18 events and GSP headlined 13, it's not even close lol.
 
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YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
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Look, I like Khabib a lot and I think if he continues to fight he has a great chance of getting there. But his resume at the moment is slightly ahead of Israel Adesanya and definitely behind Jones/GSP/Silva. GOATS stay in the highlight for much longer periods, that's what makes them GOATS. Khabib only headlined 4 events, Jones and Silva both headlined 18 events and GSP headlined 13, it's not even close lol.
I think the term GOAT is really subjective, and it can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. For some it's more about who had the best peak not necessarily the longevity (and this is argued across all sports, not just MMA). I like to look at both things. I don't think that necessarily being the most accomplished means you are the 'best of all time'. There are a lot of different factors that can influence that longevity and the spotlight as well.
 

Mickey Marner

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Look, I like Khabib a lot and I think if he continues to fight he has a great chance of getting there. But his resume at the moment is slightly ahead of Israel Adesanya and definitely behind Jones/GSP/Silva. GOATS stay in the highlight for much longer periods, that's what makes them GOATS. Khabib only headlined 4 events, Jones and Silva both headlined 18 events and GSP headlined 13, it's not even close lol.

Yeah, 15 of Khabib's wins are over guys without wikipedia pages. He ended his 29-fight win streak with utter dominance over stiff competition, but Jones has as many title wins as Khabib has wins over guys with a wikipedia entry. That's a pretty stark difference.
 
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CDJ

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again, it comes down to whether you value flawlessness vs longevity. People weigh those things differently

Honestly it’s not all that dissimilar to Gretzky vs Orr
 
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darko

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Unless you are giving a 10-8 round it is impossible to score it a draw. Reyes won that fight. Honestly can’t believe one judge had 49-46 Jones, that’s criminal. Forgot about that

I think Thiago beat him. Jon may have “outstruck” him but it was pretty much all push kicks. I thought Thiago was landing better and applying pressure the entire fight.

I was very clearly tongue-in-cheek about Anthony Smith and I said he should have taken the DQ. I mean I started the entire post off with a wink emoji

Or that 3rd round is 10-10
 

m9

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I can see how Gaethje won Round 1 - he was probably winning the striking which was the majority of the round. Khabib obviously dominated the last minute and was in complete control when the round ended, but based on the scoring criteria I think the 4 minutes of stand-up was probably worth more even though it was closer.

It's a flaw (IMO) in the scoring system but may have actually been judged correctly based on the rules. If Khabib has his ground time at the beginning of the round and then they do the standup for the rest then I think people wouldn't have a problem with a the scorecard. It's just that the round ended with Khabib in dominant position so if it was an actual fight he would of "won" the round but based on the scoring system how the round ended was irrelevant.
 

CDJ

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Or that 3rd round is 10-10

I’ve never noticed a 10-10 but one happened on the JDS-Tuivasa card in a prelim fight :eek:


Btw It’s lol funny Tuivasa headlined a fight night in hindsight. Glad he got back on the right track against Struve
 

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