GDT: UFC 254: Khabib vs. Gaethje

[Chaels Arms]

Are you sure about that? I mean here's a fighter stepping on the official scale and weighing 5 pounds over:

Tukhugov didn't even attempt to make weight. He knew the entire time he was coming in over. It's why immediately after Adesanya beat Costa he was telling Dana to start taking 90 percent of the purse from fighters who don't make weight instead of just 20 percent. Some fighters will sacrifice that money so they don't have to cut the weight and can carry an advantage into the octagon.

 

[CDJ]

I rewatched the first round and those two judges who gave it to Gaethje are on crack. The 40 seconds of the round Gaethje was pretty much mounted but even the two minutes prior to that Gaethje was quite literally running away


Good leg kicks from Justin though. It’s pretty clear the strategy was to beat up the legs and dance around the outside for the first couple of rounds. Probably would’ve paid dividends later in the fight, but the problem was Gaethje gassed from the insane pressure from Khabib + probable adrenaline dump

 

[kabidjan18]

This is what people were saying about Jones a few years ago though and he's had his toughest fights since. Where Khabib is now is basically where Jones was after the first Cormier fight in terms of resume and future threats.

So to me it's strange that Jones is punished for winning another 5 or 6 fights against the elite of the division. This is why Khabib was at least a couple of big wins away from approaching Jones territory.

I think this is a really good point. Maybe some people don't remember this far back, but when Jones cleaned through the LHW division people thought the LHW division was one of if not the most stacked division in MMA. I remember guys on forums saying that anyone in the LHW top 5 could win the HW belt easy. If you look at the fighters that he cleaned through to win the division, a lot of huge names and guys we still now remember some almost 10 years ago but they were in their early-mid 30s.

In any case, I think when a fighter cleans a division they should move up. So it's incumbent on Jones to do that now. If Jones can win the HW belt sometime down the line and also fight Adesanya at LHW at some point and beat him...there just is straight up no argument for any fighter other than Jones. But again we're talking about something very far down the line.

 

[SuperScript29]

Tukhugov didn't even attempt to make weight. He knew the entire time he was coming in over. It's why immediately after Adesanya beat Costa he was telling Dana to start taking 90 percent of the purse from fighters who don't make weight instead of just 20 percent. Some fighters will sacrifice that money so they don't have to cut the weight and can carry an advantage into the octagon.

I get it, but the whole claim of "UFC won't let you step on the official scale if you're not on weight" is BS. Guys miss weight on the official scale all the time.

That Khabib weigh in video is the official weigh in, whether he was on weight backstage or in his bathroom scale doesn't matter, we didn't see that. We saw the official scale, and according to official scale we didn't see him weigh in at 155 like Gaethje.

I think this is a really good point. Maybe some people don't remember this far back, but when Jones cleaned through the LHW division people thought the LHW division was one of if not the most stacked division in MMA. I remember guys on forums saying that anyone in the LHW top 5 could win the HW belt easy. If you look at the fighters that he cleaned through to win the division, a lot of huge names and guys we still now remember some almost 10 years ago but they were in their early-mid 30s.

In any case, I think when a fighter cleans a division they should move up. So it's incumbent on Jones to do that now. If Jones can win the HW belt sometime down the line and also fight Adesanya at LHW at some point and beat him...there just is straight up no argument for any fighter other than Jones. But again we're talking about something very far down the line.

Yea ppl don't remember well. The welterweight division was the most stacked followed possibly by the LHW then LW. The MW was somewhat thin in comparison that's why some ppl would argue that Anderson's resume was not as impressive as GSP or Jones.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

I'll preface this with I'm not a big UFC guy, just watch the big fights really.

Jon Jones should be the GOAT, the absolute star of the UFC that the whole sporting world watches, but he pissed it away on steroids and being a genuine piece of shit. It's actually kind of sad.

GSP is my GOAT cause I'm Canadian and love the guy, but I'm not sure he's the objective GOAT. Jones should be, but the steroids..

 

[SuperScript29]

I'll preface this with I'm not a big UFC guy, just watch the big fights really.

Jon Jones should be the GOAT, the absolute star of the UFC that the whole sporting world watches, but he pissed it away on steroids and being a genuine piece of shit. It's actually kind of sad.

GSP is my GOAT cause I'm Canadian and love the guy, but I'm not sure he's the objective GOAT. Jones should be, but the steroids..

I get the whole steroid argument, I really do. But you could also say that during the pre-USADA days it's really hard determining who was juicing and who wasn't. For all we know GSP might have been using steroids too and just never got caught. I'm sure Jones fought a bunch of guys on juice too, I mean some of them have been caught in the past such as Belfort, Sonnen, and Bonner.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

I get the whole steroid argument, I really do. But you could also say that during the pre-USADA days it's really hard determining who was juicing and who wasn't. For all we know GSP might have been using steroids too and just never got caught. I'm sure Jones fought a bunch of guys on juice too, I mean some of them have been caught in the past such as Belfort, Sonnen, and Bonner.

That's a fair point.

I think if he had been more contrite it would be easier to overlook, but the whole 'pulsing' and all that stuff just turned me off and made it seem like he was a cheat trying to sneak by ala Lance Armstrong back in the day. Hard for me to call a guy like that the GOAT even if his career achievements say he should be.

 

[SuperScript29]

That's a fair point.

I think if he had been more contrite it would be easier to overlook, but the whole 'pulsing' and all that stuff just turned me off and made it seem like he was a cheat trying to sneak by ala Lance Armstrong back in the day. Hard for me to call a guy like that the GOAT even if his career achievements say he should be.

Yet he continues to win, it's hard to ignore that too.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Yet he continues to win, it's hard to ignore that too.

Except at this point it's too far gone. His legacy will be tarnished forever.

Does the baseball world consider Barry Bonds the GOAT? Does the cycling world consider Lance Armstrong the GOAT? That's how Jon Jones appears to me. Now, admittedly I'm not some huge UFC buff so maybe I shouldn't see him on the same level as those guys but the repeated positive tests and the lack of responsibility are not what I would want my sport's GOAT to be remembered by.

This is just my opinion though, not trying to argue right vs. wrong. He has all the accomplishments, no doubt.

 

[SuperScript29]

Except at this point it's too far gone. His legacy will be tarnished forever.

Does the baseball world consider Barry Bonds the GOAT? Does the cycling world consider Lance Armstrong the GOAT? That's how Jon Jones appears to me. Now, admittedly I'm not some huge UFC buff so maybe I shouldn't see him on the same level as those guys but the repeated positive tests and the lack of responsibility are not what I would want my sport's GOAT to be remembered by.

This is just my opinion though, not trying to argue right vs. wrong. He has all the accomplishments, no doubt.

I think in the case of MMA it's a little different. Is it cheap? Sure, but there's also a significant pattern that people tend to overlook when you consider who could have juiced before USADA. Many of the elite fighters went on to struggle once the program was implemented. Granted you could also argue wear and tear and age, but it seems suspicious that all these significant fighters declining around the same time. In the case of Jones I think he didn't look his best the last two fights but the two fights prior he was dominant and they were post-USADA, so I don't think steroids played as much factor in his success as people think. Mind you this is a guy that has screwed his own career by doing dumb things outside the octagon, I would have loved to see what a focused Jones would have done. Anyways I think this is getting off-topic, it is what it is.

 

[m9]

Except at this point it's too far gone. His legacy will be tarnished forever.

Does the baseball world consider Barry Bonds the GOAT? Does the cycling world consider Lance Armstrong the GOAT? That's how Jon Jones appears to me. Now, admittedly I'm not some huge UFC buff so maybe I shouldn't see him on the same level as those guys but the repeated positive tests and the lack of responsibility are not what I would want my sport's GOAT to be remembered by.

This is just my opinion though, not trying to argue right vs. wrong. He has all the accomplishments, no doubt.

Jones has brought most of this on himself by blurring the lines because of all the trouble he has been in. He's constantly in trouble and been suspended, fined, and have belts stripped.

But other than basically the two instances where steroids were found, all of those other issues have not positively impacted his career. The second instance was extremely likely tied to a tainted supplement or if anything was such a small amount that it didn't change what happened in the cage. I don't think that second instance would even show up on the tests they do today.

So has he done steroids? I'm going to say yes. Has he done more than most fighters over the last 20 years, including some of the greatest fighters of all-time? Probably not. He just happened to be fighting during a time that was insanely regulated (over-regulated, IMO) and over the past year or so they've finally worked on correcting that over-regulating.

My reason for GSP not being the GOAT is that he had two big losses in big fights. I'm sorry, but the "GOAT" doesn't get steam-rolled by a 155lb journeyman who won TUF. He didn't take that fight seriously and as such this is where he gets hit. He also had a razor-thin win over Hendricks which was pretty similar to the Jones/Reyes fight, so they're both on even-grounds there.

The thing about MMA is that most of the top guys will eventually have their legacy ruined because they stick around, and that's a bit unfair as often it's for financial reasons. Khabib has either made enough money or doesn't care about it enough so that he's able to walk away on top. GSP was a sponsor-darling who made a ton of money who was able to walk away as soon as the division had caught up to him. Fedor, Anderson Silva kept fighting.

I don't know how you properly weigh the fights they had after their peak vs fights they had earlier in their career. Guys like Khabib & GSP will always be secure in their spot because they stopped fighting when either guys either would not or could not. If Anderson Silva walked away before the Weidman fights he would have left as the GOAT. But he didn't. So now what?

It's why I always steer away from the GOAT talk because it's so complex and hard to answer. There needs to be a better way to weigh prime accomplishments vs veteran accomplishments, but I just don't know what it is.

 

[I am not exposed]

Jones has brought most of this on himself by blurring the lines because of all the trouble he has been in. He's constantly in trouble and been suspended, fined, and have belts stripped.

But other than basically the two instances where steroids were found, all of those other issues have not positively impacted his career. The second instance was extremely likely tied to a tainted supplement or if anything was such a small amount that it didn't change what happened in the cage. I don't think that second instance would even show up on the tests they do today.

So has he done steroids? I'm going to say yes. Has he done more than most fighters over the last 20 years, including some of the greatest fighters of all-time? Probably not. He just happened to be fighting during a time that was insanely regulated (over-regulated, IMO) and over the past year or so they've finally worked on correcting that over-regulating.

My reason for GSP not being the GOAT is that he had two big losses in big fights. I'm sorry, but the "GOAT" doesn't get steam-rolled by a 155lb journeyman who won TUF. He didn't take that fight seriously and as such this is where he gets hit. He also had a razor-thin win over Hendricks which was pretty similar to the Jones/Reyes fight, so they're both on even-grounds there.

The thing about MMA is that most of the top guys will eventually have their legacy ruined because they stick around, and that's a bit unfair as often it's for financial reasons. Khabib has either made enough money or doesn't care about it enough so that he's able to walk away on top. GSP was a sponsor-darling who made a ton of money who was able to walk away as soon as the division had caught up to him. Fedor, Anderson Silva kept fighting.

I don't know how you properly weigh the fights they had after their peak vs fights they had earlier in their career. Guys like Khabib & GSP will always be secure in their spot because they stopped fighting when either guys either would not or could not. If Anderson Silva walked away before the Weidman fights he would have left as the GOAT. But he didn't. So now what?

It's why I always steer away from the GOAT talk because it's so complex and hard to answer. There needs to be a better way to weigh prime accomplishments vs veteran accomplishments, but I just don't know what it is.

Is it just me, or the GOAT a more recent phenomena? I never heard of it until a few years ago. And I followed a lot of sport growing up. Maybe it's a more North American thing. Although I have started to notice the British press use it recently as well.

 

[m9]

Is it just me, or the GOAT a more recent phenomena? I never heard of it until a few years ago. And I followed a lot of sport growing up. Maybe it's a more North American thing. Although I have started to notice the British press use it recently as well.

It's very recent in sports and incredibly overused. I don't even think people know what they're saying when they use the term anymore.

 

[SuperScript29]

Is it just me, or the GOAT a more recent phenomena? I never heard of it until a few years ago. And I followed a lot of sport growing up. Maybe it's a more North American thing. Although I have started to notice the British press use it recently as well.

In the case of MMA it is because it's a young sport. In other older sports I'm sure GOAT discussions have always taken place. I can tell you from first hand experience that on hfboards alone GOAT discussions have always taken place and I've been around these boards on and off since 2002. So yea, I think it's more of an MMA thing and you'll definitely see more of it as time goes on and the sport matures. Probably even more so with MMA since the sport moves a lot faster than other sports.

It's very recent in sports and incredibly overused. I don't even think people know what they're saying when they use the term anymore.

It's an opinion more than anything, the truth is there's an argument to be made for multiple fighters, but I don't think we have seen a fighter at the level of say, Wayne Gretzky or Michael Jordan to have a definite answer. I would say Jon Jones is probably the closest, but we'll see what he does next.

 

[Chaels Arms]

Khabib told DC after the fight he went for the triangle choke for two reasons:
1. He had heard Justin say all week he was never going to tap and didn't want to risk breaking his arm via armbar in front of Justin's family if Justin stuck to those words so he opted for a choke;
2. The armbar to triangle choke was his father's favorite form of submission.

I have no idea if this is for real but Khabib has never seemed like someone to make up idle boasts. That's pretty incredible if true.

 

[pistolpete11]

Was away this weekend, so watched the fights late.

Nothing to really add about the fight. Just domination from Khabib. The pressure he put on Gaethje in the first was insane. No way Gaethje was going to survive 5 rounds like that anyway. I also think Khabib was smart to go for a submission. Maybe he could have wrestled and G&P'ed him, but Gaethje's BJJ seemed to be nonexistent and why give him a chance to scramble and get back to his feet?

R1 was close until the takedown. I could see giving it to Gaethje if you thought he landed the harder shots despite the pressure, but with the takedown and getting mounted, how those 2 judges gave it to Gaethje I can't understand.

I'm weirdly indifferent on Khabib's retirement. On one hand, I still wanted to see Khabib-Tony. I think Khabib wins, but we never saw him against a guy with an offensive ground game. At least not at the elite level. Gaethje, Poirier, Conor, Al, Barboza, and Johnson all tried to keep it standing, get up when they did get taken down, or just tried to survive. I fully expect Tony would be looking to throw up some submissions and elbows from the bottom. Eddie Bravo said as much. I think Khabib's grappling is good enough it wouldn't change the outcome, but I wanted to see it.

On the other hand, this division is too good and too deep to have such a dominant champ who also only fights once a year. This could get really interesting unless as others have said Conor wins the belt and then looks to box Manny or something. A tournament for the vacant belt would be fun, but it won't happen and isn't even worth discussing. This just happened at 135 with Cejudo retiring. Yan-Aldo was made for the vacant belt and Sterling-Sandhagen as the #1 contender. Now we are getting Yan-Sterling. So essentially the same thing as a tournament, but Yan will make more money since he's champ. So that's good. Conor-Poirier will be for the belt and probably Tony-Chandler as the #1 contender. Gaethje with 1 win would be fighting for the belt again.

As far as Khabib's legacy, to me Jones is still the GOAT. As much as it pains me to say it. Khabib might be the most dominant or impressive or however you want to put it, but longevity and activity matter. Jones has more title fight wins than Khabib has in his entire UFC career. Even if Jones keeps fighting and ends up with some losses, I still think Jones takes it for what he's done up to this point or even before Reyes if you think he lost that fight as I do. The steroid thing is hard to discuss because everybody has made up their minds about it and there is no convincing anybody otherwise. To me, he fought in an era everyone was suing steroids and then in an era that went too far the other way as @m9 said. Longevity and activity is why I would put GSP ahead of Khabib despite the losses as well. Then I'd put Khabib. I think Silva and Might Mouse's competition was just too weak. Khabib's really wasn't all that impressive TBH until the Conor-Poirier-Gaethje run he just went on, but that run, along with being undefeated puts him #3 on my list.



Glad to see Bobby Knuckles pick up the win. He looked great. I guess Cannonier was injured early in R1 which explains why he wasn't throwing his hands as much. I think Izzy-Whittaker 2 makes sense. Former champ with 2 top 5 wins both against guys that the champ has praised. What more do you want? I think the rematch would go a little different. I think Whittaker would be more cautious and mix in his wrestling more, but I think the outcome will be the same.

 

[CDJ]

Something Luke Thomas brought up that I thought was an interesting point- With the other GOATS the gap always started to narrow over time, with Khabib the gap between him and his peers is still growing. You can argue that it’s because he didn’t stick around long enough and that’s kind of fair but it’s just outrageous that somebody this dominant is still improving. Like at no point did he have anybody closing in on him skill-wise...he was way out ahead of everybody and instead of maintaining he kept improving



I personally I will call him my pound for pound GOAT because I think a heavyweight Khabib is more dangerous than a nuclear arsenal and would probably rule over all of Europe if not the world....but you can make many arguments for many guys though. It’s a lot easier to compare across weight classes, where Khabib is the unquestioned 155 GOAT

 

[SuperScript29]

Something Luke Thomas brought up that I thought was an interesting point- With the other GOATS the gap always started to narrow over time, with Khabib the gap between him and his peers is still growing. You can argue that it’s because he didn’t stick around long enough and that’s kind of fair but it’s just outrageous that somebody this dominant is still improving. Like at no point did he have anybody closing in on him skill-wise...he was way out ahead of everybody and instead of maintaining he kept improving



I personally I will call him my pound for pound GOAT because I think a heavyweight Khabib is more dangerous than a nuclear arsenal and would probably rule over all of Europe if not the world....but you can make many arguments for many guys though. It’s a lot easier to compare across weight classes, where Khabib is the unquestioned 155 GOAT

I mean, you could make similar arguments with the other goats. As you put it, the other guys stayed longer in the game while Khabib didn't. There was a time where GSP was so much ahead of his competition, same with Jones and Silva, heck, even BJ Penn was so much ahead in his prime.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Something Luke Thomas brought up that I thought was an interesting point- With the other GOATS the gap always started to narrow over time, with Khabib the gap between him and his peers is still growing. You can argue that it’s because he didn’t stick around long enough and that’s kind of fair but it’s just outrageous that somebody this dominant is still improving. Like at no point did he have anybody closing in on him skill-wise...he was way out ahead of everybody and instead of maintaining he kept improving



I personally I will call him my pound for pound GOAT because I think a heavyweight Khabib is more dangerous than a nuclear arsenal and would probably rule over all of Europe if not the world....but you can make many arguments for many guys though. It’s a lot easier to compare across weight classes, where Khabib is the unquestioned 155 GOAT

I think Silva, GSP and Jones all had a similar aura after their 3rd consecutive title defense.

Silva

• Marquardt
• Franklin
• Henderson

GSP

• Fitch
• Penn
• Alves

Jones

• Jackson
• Machida
• Evans

The difference is they all had a blight (less so Jones) on their CV already. Khabib's is flawless.

 

[CDJ]

I mean, you could make similar arguments with the other goats. As you put it, the other guys stayed longer in the game while Khabib didn't. There was a time where GSP was so much ahead of his competition, same with Jones and Silva, heck, even BJ Penn was so much ahead in his prime.

GSP was one defense into his first reign when he got starched by Serra though. Jake Shields kinda sorta gave him some issues. I thought Hendricks beat him but those two fights were more towards the end. Bones was in an absolute war with Gus in the middle of their primes.

Every fight with Khabib he got further and further out ahead of everybody, in a crazy talented division where fighters are always making major leaps (I mean just look at Gaethje himself as an example of that). Gaethje took a huge leap in his last 4 fights and it turns out Khabibs leap over that time was even bigger. He was the best and he was still improving at the fastest rate.


We’ll never get to see that crop of youngster challenge him so we won’t know if it would’ve continued but you can’t really say that about the other guys. They were mega talented and better than anybody else in their division but there was always one guy who was at least a thorn in their side. Khabib’s opponents just had absolutely nothing for him. I mean people say Iaquinta made him look human but there were 2 50-43 scorecards lol

it’s crazy to say but Conor gave him the best fight

 

[CDJ]

I think Silva, GSP and Jones all had a similar aura after their 3rd consecutive title defense.

Silva

• Marquardt
• Franklin
• Henderson

GSP

• Fitch
• Penn
• Alves

Jones

• Jackson
• Machida
• Evans

The difference is they all had a blight (less so Jones) on their CV already. Khabib's is flawless.

also kinda funny that Silva and GSP kind of initially lost the title the same exact way

 

[m9]

GSP was one defense into his first reign when he got starched by Serra though. Bones was in an absolute war with Gus in the middle of their primes.

Every fight with Khabib he got further and further out ahead of everybody, in a crazy talented division where fighters are always making major leaps (I mean just look at Gaethje himself as an example of that). Gaethje took a huge leap in his last 4 fights and it turns out Khabibs leap over that time was even bigger. He was the best and he was still improving at the fastest rate.


We’ll never get to see that crop of youngster challenge him so we won’t know if it would’ve continued but you can’t really say that about the other guys. They were mega talented and better than anybody else in their division but there was always one guy who was at least a thorn in their side. Khabib’s opponents just had absolutely nothing for him. I mean people say Iaquinta made him look human but there were 2 50-43 scorecards lol

it’s crazy to say but Conor gave him the best fight

The Gus fight was Jones' 6th title defense. That's the whole point, if Khabib kept going then we would have comparables to that situation.

 

[CDJ]

The Gus fight was Jones' 6th title defense. That's the whole point, if Khabib kept going then we would have comparables to that situation.

As he aged out of his athletic prime I’m sure people would’ve started to close the gap on him. My whole thing is Jon was what- 26 when he fought Gus? The skills weren’t really declining Yet like they are now. He just met somebody arguably as good that night. We’ve never seen that with Khabib and he’s 32 and the gap was somehow widening before he called it


Totally understand though that if he held the belt another 3 years SOMEBODY would have had to come close. You would think its too talented of a division for it not too happen. But that’s the land of ifs and buts and I don’t see a lightweight alive that could come close to him right now

 

[CDJ]

Also unrelated to the main event but Ankalaev wants either Shogun or Anthony Smith next and plz don’t do that to either of those guys Dana. Especially not shogun

 

[PB37]

Ending your perfect career with the submission your father loved the most. How wonderful and storybook is that ending? What a tribute paid by Khabib. I'm still amazed.