GDT: UFC 235: Jones vs. Smith

[pistolpete11]

People still whining about the Askren/Lawler stoppage need to watch this clip. It's spot on and there was literally nothing Robbie could do to get out of the spot he was in.

Uhhhhh, yeah that doesn't prove your point. They even say that he wasn't out in the clip. They just make the point that he could be choked out in that position.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="Robbie Lawler gave a thumbs up even after his arm supposedly went Limp,Ben Askren on Dana White - YouTube" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This clip clearly shows that Robbie moves his arm when Herb grabs him and he gives the thumbs up.

You can make the point that you can see why Herb thought he was out, but that doesn't mean it was the right call. Robbie wasn't out and therefore it was a bad stoppage. Period. It also doesn't matter whether you, I, or anybody else thinks Robbie could get out of that position or not. He should be given the opportunity to try. Even if he has to ride it out until the end of the round. Then Askren's arms are going to be tired and Round 2 starts on the feet. Who knows what happens.

Edit: I don't know how to embed videos apparently, but if you click that link and press play, it works.

 

[LSCII]

Uhhhhh, yeah that doesn't prove your point. They even say that he wasn't out in the clip. They just make the point that he could be choked out in that position.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="Robbie Lawler gave a thumbs up even after his arm supposedly went Limp,Ben Askren on Dana White - YouTube" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This clip clearly shows that Robbie moves his arm when Herb grabs him and he gives the thumbs up.

You can make the point that you can see why Herb thought he was out, but that doesn't mean it was the right call. Robbie wasn't out and therefore it was a bad stoppage. Period. It also doesn't matter whether you, I, or anybody else thinks Robbie could get out of that position or not. He should be given the opportunity to try. Even if he has to ride it out until the end of the round. Then Askren's arms are going to be tired and Round 2 starts on the feet. Who knows what happens.

Edit: I don't know how to embed videos apparently, but if you click that link and press play, it works.

They didn't say he could be choked out from that spot, but that it was a matter of time before he would be choked out. They even went into explaining that his chin being out didn't matter because he was going to go out either way because of the position he put himself in trying to get out of the RNC. He essentially went from bad to worse by moving and rotating the way he did, and he was going to go to sleep if it wasn't stopped.

 

[m9]

It was obviously a bad stoppage.. but it was just as obvious that the end result was going to be the same.

 

[Neutrinos]

It's one thing for a ref to jump in prematurely when he thinks a fighter is out of it and in danger of taking additional strikes to the head. One devastating shot to an unconscious opponent could have life-altering consequences

But wouldn't a choke hold have to be applied for at least a couple of minutes before the fighter would be in any serious jeopardy?

If a fighter has been in a choke hold for 20 seconds, it's not going to kill him if the ref takes another 5 seconds to ensure he's really unconscious

 

[LSCII]

It was obviously a bad stoppage.. but it was just as obvious that the end result was going to be the same.

This it in a nutshell for me. No way he was getting out of that choke, so it was merely a matter of time before it ended how it ended. If anything Herb Dean saved Lawler from going to sleep since he likely would not have tapped. Love Lawler too, but it's fact.

 

[LSCII]

It's one thing for a ref to jump in prematurely when he thinks a fighter is out of it and in danger of taking additional strikes to the head. One devastating shot to an unconscious opponent could have life-altering consequences

But wouldn't a choke hold have to be applied for at least a couple of minutes before the fighter would be in any serious jeopardy?

If a fighter has been in a choke hold for 20 seconds, it's not going to kill him if the ref takes another 5 seconds to ensure he's really unconscious

That's not how it goes, ever. They simply don't willingly leave guys in to get extra punishment. If anything, they go the other way and stop things early, like they did in this case.

 

[pistolpete11]

They didn't say he could be choked out from that spot, but that it was a matter of time before he would be choked out. They even went into explaining that his chin being out didn't matter because he was going to go out either way because of the position he put himself in trying to get out of the RNC. He essentially went from bad to worse by moving and rotating the way he did, and he was going to go to sleep if it wasn't stopped.

It. Doesn't. Matter.

He wasn't out and he didn't tap. It was a bad stoppage. Period.

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about what would have happened. Guys have got out of positions where it was "only a matter of time" before. Robbie deserves that same chance.

 

[pistolpete11]

This it in a nutshell for me. No way he was getting out of that choke, so it was merely a matter of time before it ended how it ended. If anything Herb Dean saved Lawler from going to sleep since he likely would not have tapped. Love Lawler too, but it's fact.

That is NOT the ref's decision to make.

 

[m9]

This it in a nutshell for me. No way he was getting out of that choke, so it was merely a matter of time before it ended how it ended. If anything Herb Dean saved Lawler from going to sleep since he likely would not have tapped. Love Lawler too, but it's fact.

I don't think he was getting out either, but it was still a mistake by Herb Dean and the fight should of continued.. even briefly.

I agree the end result seemed pretty clear, though.

 

[pistolpete11]

If there is a guy who has a right opinion when it comes to MMA refereeing, it is Big John.

 

[YNWA14]

He was out. His arm went limp, and when Herb tapped on Askren's chest he loosened the hold and Lawler came to.

But nobody is changing their minds on this and everyone will seek their own justifications.

 

[LSCII]

That is NOT the ref's decision to make.

I'm not saying it is. I'm simply saying that the way it ended was going to be the way it ended, regardless of when Dean stopped it. You do realize that the ref can have make a bad call, but ultimately the fight would have ended the same way, no? It's like the people who are arguing about the stoppage being bad assume Lawler was going to get out and win or something, and that the early stoppage robbed him of a win. He wasn't and it didn't.

 

[LSCII]

If there is a guy who has a right opinion when it comes to MMA refereeing, it is Big John.

Sure, Big John is saying that the stoppage was early. That's not something I've been arguing. He doesn't say anything about what would have happened if the fight were left to continue though, does he?

And really, what did you see happening if it hadn't been stopped at that moment?

 

[pistolpete11]

I'm not saying it is. I'm simply saying that the way it ended was going to be the way it ended, regardless of when Dean stopped it. You do realize that the ref can have make a bad call, but ultimately the fight would have ended the same way, no? It's like the people who are arguing about the stoppage being bad assume Lawler was going to get out and win or something, and that the early stoppage robbed him of a win. He wasn't and it didn't.

You don't know that.

Sure, Big John is saying that the stoppage was early. That's not something I've been arguing. He doesn't say anything about what would have happened if the fight were left to continue though, does he?

And really, what did you see happening if it hadn't been stopped at that moment?

No he didn't because he, like you and I, don't actually know.

I don't know what would have happened that's the point. Maybe Askren starts burning out his arms and lets the hold go. Maybe he goes to readjust and Robbie slips out. Maybe Robbie could have survived until the end of the round. Or maybe Robbie goes to sleep/taps. We don't know because it was a bad stoppage.

 

[Peter Griffin]

He was out. His arm went limp, and when Herb tapped on Askren's chest he loosened the hold and Lawler came to.

But nobody is changing their minds on this and everyone will seek their own justifications.

He gave Herb the thumbs up literally right after Herb grabbed his arm and Robbie pulled it away. It was a bad call but everything happened so quickly it’s hard to really fault Herb on this. At the end of the day his job is to ensure the safety of the fighters and he made a quick judgement call to protect the fighter. Unfortunately it was the wrong call. It happens.

 

[LSCII]

You don't know that.


No he didn't because he, like you and I, don't actually know.

I don't know what would have happened that's the point. Maybe Askren starts burning out his arms and lets the hold go. Maybe he goes to readjust and Robbie slips out. Maybe Robbie could have survived until the end of the round. Or maybe Robbie goes to sleep/taps. We don't know because it was a bad stoppage.

I think it was an early stoppage, but not a bad one if that makes sense. The Gracie's in that video I posted lay it out as to why Lawler wasn't getting out of that choke. He tried and moved twice into worse positions, making it even more difficult to escape. And given Askren's ability to constrict, I don't believe anything other than what happened would have happened. I also think that Lawler was out. He went limp. Clear as day to me.

 

[pistolpete11]

I think it was an early stoppage, but not a bad one if that makes sense. The Gracie's in that video I posted lay it out as to why Lawler wasn't getting out of that choke. He tried and moved twice into worse positions, making it even more difficult to escape. And given Askren's ability to constrict, I don't believe anything other than what happened would have happened. I also think that Lawler was out. He went limp. Clear as day to me.

It doesn't

Askren is strong. No doubt, but he had Robbie in that hold for a little bit and Robbie survived until that point. So I don't see how anyone can say with certainty that he wouldn't have survived longer. We simply don't know and it doesn't matter what anyone thinks would have happened. Even a Gracie.

We obviously aren't going to agree and what happened happened, so there's point in continuing this discussion. I hope they run it back and make it the co-main to Usman-Colby. If Colby drops out, Askren can step in and fight for the title.

 

[member 51464]

I think running it back is an awful idea. If we had to get a do-over on every fight with a questionable result or finish, we'd never get anywhere. Guys only fight a couple times a year as is, generally. No need to keep these folks from moving on.

 

[LSCII]

I think running it back is an awful idea. If we had to get a do-over on every fight with a questionable result or finish, we'd never get anywhere. Guys only fight a couple times a year as is, generally. No need to keep these folks from moving on.

Agreed. Whatever happened to accepting your loses the same way you accept your wins?

 

[YNWA14]

Lawler did accept the loss though; he's handling it with complete class even if he's saying he never went out. He understands why the call was made.

He gave Herb the thumbs up literally right after Herb grabbed his arm and Robbie pulled it away. It was a bad call but everything happened so quickly it’s hard to really fault Herb on this. At the end of the day his job is to ensure the safety of the fighters and he made a quick judgement call to protect the fighter. Unfortunately it was the wrong call. It happens.

That's not really how it happened though. Again, perspective. He gave a very half-hearted thumbs up after Herb 1) watched his arm go completely limp (and everyone thought he was out at that point, including announcers), 2) asked him to respond multiple times and he said nothing (which he claims is because his ears were blocked, but they weren't so...more likely he was out), and 3) felt no resistance when he picked up Lawler's arm and let it go. The thumbs up is barely noticeable even when you watch it in slow mo, let alone in real time.

I don't see how you can say it was a bad call but not fault the ref. A bad call implies fault. Everything pointed to Lawler being out, which is why everyone thought he was until after the call was made (and all these slow-mo replays have been analyzed to death), so Herb had to protect the fighter.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Lawler did accept the loss though; he's handling it with complete class even if he's saying he never went out. He understands why the call was made.

That's not really how it happened though. Again, perspective. He gave a very half-hearted thumbs up after Herb 1) watched his arm go completely limp (and everyone thought he was out at that point, including announcers), 2) asked him to respond multiple times and he said nothing (which he claims is because his ears were blocked, but they weren't so...more likely he was out), and 3) felt no resistance when he picked up Lawler's arm and let it go. The thumbs up is barely noticeable even when you watch it in slow mo, let alone in real time.

The thing is, as soon as Herb grabs Lawler's arm, Robbie pulls it back and gives him the thumbs up, without hesitation. But Herb also immediately proceeds to interject and call the fight off. It's as if Herb had already made his mind up that he was calling the fight off when he went to grab Lawler's arm.

I don't see how you can say it was a bad call but not fault the ref. A bad call implies fault.

Everything pointed to Lawler being out, which is why everyone thought he was until after the call was made (and all these slow-mo replays have been analyzed to death), so Herb had to protect the fighter.

I said it was hard to fault Herb in this case because everything happened so quickly and afterall he's only human. But in the end, he is to fault here as it turns out it was the wrong call.

 

[pistolpete11]

The thing is, as soon as Herb grabs Lawler's arm, Robbie pulls it back and gives him the thumbs up, without hesitation. But Herb also immediately proceeds to interject and call the fight off. It's as if Herb had already made his mind up that he was calling the fight off when he went to grab Lawler's arm.

Yeah, I think this is the point. I get that it looks like his arm went limp, but I think it is pretty indisputable that he wasn't out when Herb stopped the fight. So why'd he stop the fight? Or why did he check on him if he already made up his mind that he was out? Either way, I think Herb panicked and didn't handle it correctly.

I said it was hard to fault Herb in this case because everything happened so quickly and afterall he's only human. But in the end, he is to fault here as it turns out it was the wrong call.

It might just be semantics, but I think the best term for it might be "understandable mistake". He's human, it happens quickly, he hears the crowd, etc. and he panics. I get it. But it was still a mistake.