Tyson Barrie

[Pierce Hawthorne]

LOL... i guess Girard will not be able to develop a nasty shot anymore.

No, he most likely will not.

 

[Patagonia]

I agree with most of your points/arguments and think this is probably the best summarization of the arguments in the debate.

Re: the size issue with Makar / Girard / Barrie. You’re right that it isn’t a size issue, but it is more of a physicality issue. Not saying it’s impossible to have the 3 of those guys, but history seems to demonstrate that you do need physicality back there.

I Do think the Bruins’ current makeup is a decent comparison, so let’s compare their smallish Dmen - McAvoy / Krug / Grezylck - to ours.

Lets say McAvoy = Makar. That means Krug / Grezylck are our Barrie / Girard. Grezylck is a 3rd pairing D (which neither Barrie nor Girard are). Krug, despite being a big offensive weapon, is still extremely physical as dictated by his play last night.

Maybe Girard is a little more physical than we give him credit for. Barrie we know is not physical. Barrie is similar in terms of offense to Krug, but nowhere near his physicality. Girard is a good defender, and can play physically sometimes, but I’m not envisioning him laying someone out like Krug did last night.

While the physicality/size aspect may have been a bit overblown here, it’s an important point to consider, particularly in light of the fact that we’re considering sinking $7-9m/year for 5-8 years on a one dimensional player that is the worst defender on our team.

This is the concept that wants Barrie moved. Sinking that much money for the entire term is not the issue, but for a 1D player. Paying that large amount is really for upfront success, the remaining years is dead money or wasted cap space from a player that is likely unmovable. He screams as a potential buyout candidate near the end of his deal.

 

[MarkT]

This thread is a perfect example that the following concepts are lost on some:

1. every player develops at a different rate
2. inflation and how it influences contracts
3. having the puck on your stick is best D
4. we are not in 1998 anymore

I changed your post to being numbered:
1. Totally agreed. The only reason to compare players like Makar and Girard to Barrie at the same age is if someone acts like Makar and Girard are not going to develop any further.
2. I assume you mean cap inflation, and that's definitely a relevant point if anyone is trying to compare an upcoming contract to a past one in a direct dollar-to-dollar comparison. It's why I refrain from stating a specific number when talking about Barrie's contract and rather say "#1 D money" or something similar. I think that's more useful than getting stuck on arguing about a specific number.
3. Yes, but it's not the only D. Being able to stop a cycle, clear the front of the net, cover your man in the defensive zone - these are all also important defensive skills and they're all skills in which Barrie is the worst on the team among all our regulars last season.
4. Agreed, but the league is not suddenly one in which size and physicality no longer matter. One look at the the Zadorov hit on Tkachuk shows how important that kind of play can be.

*disclaimer because in threads like this it's needed: I'm not an all-out "trade Barrie" advocate - I just want to have a rational discussion on all sides of the issue.

 

[MarkT]

This is the concept that wants Barrie moved. Sinking that much money for the entire term is not the issue, but for a 1D player. Paying that large amount is really for upfront success, the remaining years is dead money or wasted cap space from a player that is likely unmovable. He screams as a potential buyout candidate near the end of his deal.

Yeah the really scary thought is we re-sign him to, say one of the top 20 defenseman cap hits in the league, then as he ages players like Makar, Girard, Timmins, and who knows who else come in and steal all his time playing on the top powerplay, his offensive zone starts, and his time playing with MacKinnon. Then his offense starts to dry up and he continues to be sub-par at best in his own zone. I could see Barrie one day being a huge negative for the team. Now, that's not an argument for not signing him - it's an argument for under no circumstances giving him a NTC, because even if we don't trade him now, we'll probably want to trade him at some point.

 

[Gatorbait19]

This is the concept that wants Barrie moved. Sinking that much money for the entire term is not the issue, but for a 1D player. Paying that large amount is really for upfront success, the remaining years is dead money or wasted cap space from a player that is likely unmovable. He screams as a potential buyout candidate near the end of his deal.

100%. It’s the totality of the circumstances. Paying Barrie like a 1D (with his defensive limitations) will force us to spend more cap space on other Dmen that will make up for that deficiency. However, if you pay Barrie what he wants, you’re not going to have the cap space to do so.

 

[Gatorbait19]

Yeah the really scary thought is we re-sign him to, say one of the top 20 defenseman cap hits in the league, then as he ages players like Makar, Girard, Timmins, and who knows who else come in and steal all his time playing on the top powerplay, his offensive zone starts, and his time playing with MacKinnon. Then his offense starts to dry up and he continues to be sub-par at best in his own zone. I could see Barrie one day being a huge negative for the team. Now, that's not an argument for not signing him - it's an argument for under no circumstances giving him a NTC, because even if we don't trade him now, we'll probably want to trade him at some point.

Also, one of Barrie’s best attributes and what makes him so successful is his speed/acceleration, which will decrease with time.

Some players are able to modify their game as they get older/more experienced, so the drop off isn’t so bad. Barrie is probably not one of those guys. Once his speed/acceleration decrease, you’re left with an average offensive Dman that’s a defensive liability.

 

[Patagonia]

100%. It’s the totality of the circumstances. Paying Barrie like a 1D (with his defensive limitations) will force us to spend more cap space on other Dmen that will make up for that deficiency. However, if you pay Barrie what he wants, you’re not going to have the cap space to do so.

Barrie situation seems obvious. Pay now ignoring impending problems later or transition towards a 2-headed threat Girard/Makar (possibly 3 after draft).

With an expiring contract; options and values becomes fewer. I’m hoping he’s gone by the draft and the young DMen will have more defined role.

 

[xbestboybandever]

This thread is a perfect example that the following concepts are lost on some:

• every player develops at a different rate
• inflation and how it influences contracts
• having the puck on your stick is best D
• we are not in 1998 anymore

If you are that frustrated by this thread, why do you participate in it, let alone for the purpose to criticize someone that has a different opinion than you do. It was the same thing with you the last Barrie contract.

 

[5280]

If you are that frustrated by this thread, why do you participate in it, let alone for the purpose to criticize someone that has a different opinion than you do. It was the same thing with you the last Barrie contract.

I personally like his attempt at bringing civility to the board.

At least it’s not the classic “well, you must have never played hockey” or the “you must not have watched a hockey game since 2002” arguments.

 

[Gatorbait19]

Barrie situation seems obvious. Pay now ignoring impending problems later or transition towards a 2-headed threat Girard/Makar (possibly 3 after draft).

With an expiring contract; options and values becomes fewer. I’m hoping he’s gone by the draft and the young DMen will have more defined role.

Get whatever you can while you can for Barrie. Although it’s probably less than what ppl will want (2019 1st + prospect/decently capable Dman), Barrie’s trade value will only decrease from here (whether that’s mid-season or 1-2 years from now with his new extension).

Makar and Girard’s improvements next year will help make up the offense we lose in Barrie. Maybe not completely, but the addition of at least 2 real second line players on top of that will more than exceed what we lose from Barrie offensively. Then throw in the fact that we’ll be much better defensively, and to me it’s a no brainer.

 

[xbestboybandever]

I personally like his attempt at bringing civility to the board.

At least it’s not the classic “well, you must have never played hockey” or the “you must not have watched a hockey game since 2002” arguments.

You and I have different opinions of civility.

 

[Iceberg]

I personally like his attempt at bringing civility to the board.

At least it’s not the classic “well, you must have never played hockey” or the “you must not have watched a hockey game since 2002” arguments.

Well, "we are not in 1998 anymore" sounds pretty similar to me.

 

[Ivan13]

If you are that frustrated by this thread, why do you participate in it, let alone for the purpose to criticize someone that has a different opinion than you do. It was the same thing with you the last Barrie contract.

You seem to misunderstand. Everyone here is free to criticize another one’s opinion. Everyone is free to come into this thread and say what they think about the thread’s topic. Feel free to put me on the ignore list, I certainly won’t begrudge it, quite the contrary. As for my stance on Tyson’s last contract, I sure was proven wrong, wasn’t I? It would really suck he was paid what he was worth back then, and if we had a 55+ D signed for what I argued back then. Same goes for Radar.

Maybe one day this franchise decides to keep their stars and build a winner instead of trading them for magic beans.

 

[5280]

I personally like his attempt at bringing civility to the board.

At least it’s not the classic “well, you must have never played hockey” or the “you must not have watched a hockey game since 2002” arguments.

Woops, I misread this and thought it was from a different poster. I’ll show myself to the door.

 

[Gatorbait19]

You seem to misunderstand. Everyone here is free to criticize another one’s opinion. Everyone is free to come into this thread and say what they think about the thread’s topic. Feel free to put me on the ignore list, I certainly won’t begrudge it, quite the contrary. As for my stance on Tyson’s last contract, I sure was proven wrong, wasn’t I? It would really suck he was paid what he was worth back then, and if we had a 55+ D signed for what I argued back then. Same goes for Radar.

Maybe one day this franchise decides to keep their stars and build a winner instead of trading them for magic beans.

You’re under the impression that everyone/the team wants to trade its stars.

No one wants to trade the team’s stars, but I’m today’s salary cap world it’s which stars you pay that matters. Yes, not paying Radar was a mistake. That doesn’t mean you attempt to rectify that wrong by overpaying for Barrie now.

There are 3 players on this team that are absolutely untouchable - MacK, Rants and Makar. That’s it. Girard and Landy are in the practically untouchable category. Those are the team’s stars moving forward.

Everyone else is available for the right price.

 

[Ivan13]

You’re under the impression that everyone/the team wants to trade its stars.

No one wants to trade the team’s stars, but I’m today’s salary cap world it’s which stars you pay that matters. Yes, not paying Radar was a mistake. That doesn’t mean you attempt to rectify that wrong by overpaying for Barrie now.

There are 3 players on this team that are absolutely untouchable - MacK, Rants and Makar. That’s it. Girard and Landy are in the practically untouchable category. Those are the team’s stars moving forward.

Everyone else is available for the right price.

Who wants to overpay Barrie? He should get market value for a player of his stature. And to put Girard over Barrie boggles the mind. He has quite a long way to becoming as good as Tyson is.

 

[klozge]

Also, one of Barrie’s best attributes and what makes him so successful is his speed/acceleration, which will decrease with time.

Some players are able to modify their game as they get older/more experienced, so the drop off isn’t so bad. Barrie is probably not one of those guys. Once his speed/acceleration decrease, you’re left with an average offensive Dman that’s a defensive liability.

Which has decreased noticeably during the last two years already and will continue to do so.

 

[EdAVSfan]

I know there’s been a really big “size” debate with regards to Barrie and the defense.

I’m not able to, but there’s a chart available in the habs forum in the Marc Bergevin thread. It’s on the 1st page (I have 50 posts per page). Gives an excellent chart of height and weight of each team relative to ice time. Ie, if you have a 7 foot 275 pound guy playing 2 minutes a game, he’s not going to move the scale much.

If someone could post it here, it’s be great.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Which has decreased noticeably during the last two years already and will continue to do so.

Coincidentally, Barries best offensive seasons have been the last 2 years.

Should we then assume that the more he slows down, the more effective he becomes offensively?

 

[Ivan13]

I know there’s been a really big “size” debate with regards to Barrie and the defense.

I’m not able to, but there’s a chart available in the habs forum in the Marc Bergevin thread. It’s on the 1st page (I have 50 posts per page). Gives an excellent chart of height and weight of each team relative to ice time. Ie, if you have a 7 foot 275 pound guy playing 2 minutes a game, he’s not going to move the scale much.

If someone could post it here, it’s be great.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Honestly the more I think about the comparables for Barrie the more I think signing him to a pretty reasonable deal will be.

Yandle who’s probably his best comparable signed 2 years ago for $6.28 mil per year. Add so years of inflation that probably puts Barrie at around 7.5. OEL signed recently for$8.25mil per year and while I think they’re pretty comparable(Barrie being a little better offensively while OEL is a touch better defensively) I think around the league OEL’s rep is probably better around the league which helped his contract I’m sure. Just feel like Barrie won’t be going over OEL’s contract which fills me with some confidence.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Awesome thanks.

 

[Gatorbait19]

Who wants to overpay Barrie? He should get market value for a player of his stature. And to put Girard over Barrie boggles the mind. He has quite a long way to becoming as good as Tyson is.

Right now, Barrie’s FMV is somewhat subjective, but it seems a lot of people on here do want to overpay Barrie more than FMV.

Additionally, I think you’re failing to appreciate a significant argument here as to why we shouldn’t even give Barrie FMV - which is his worth to us.

Barrie is in a somewhat unique situation here, primarily as a result of Makar/Girard’s emergence. Regardless of how good he HAS been, his worth to us as a team is less $$ than what he’s worth to other teams that need a PPQB and who have no other way to generate offense from the back end.

Regarding Girard, no Girard is not better than Barrie right now (at least offensively), but we expect great things out of him. Throw in the fact that he’s 21 while Tyson is about to be 28, and the fact that Girard costs us peanuts for the next 2 years, and his next contract probably won’t be near the 8x8 that Barrie is currently seeking. So, Girard’s trade value is wayyy higher right now than Tyson’s value.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I've stood next to Makar. I think he's bigger than that 5'11" or whatever you've listed. He's not this small, undersized defenseman, he just needs to put on some muscle like most 20 year olds do. And Girard is very good defensively. People need to stop lumping all three of them together because they're all pretty different.

I've moved onto team re-sign Barrie. However, Sakic's whole thing about feeling comfortable going into the season with Barrie but without an extension seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

The Bruins aren't exactly throwing out a blue line of giants with Krug, Cliffton, McAvoy, and Grzeleck. They seem to be just fine.

 

[dahrougem2]

Barrie situation seems obvious. Pay now ignoring impending problems later or transition towards a 2-headed threat Girard/Makar (possibly 3 after draft).

With an expiring contract; options and values becomes fewer. I’m hoping he’s gone by the draft and the young DMen will have more defined role.

It's like this guy wants to remain in a perpetual rebuild lol.