Tyler Bozak, can we win with him as our #1 center.

[King85Kong]

I don't see why we couldn't Bozak isn't what breaks the top line, what we need is better results from our bottom nine. When only one line can score they get over played and over tired.

I don't see how replacing Bozak's 4.2 million with a 7-10 million center won't put that top line in cap hell either.

Been shown in lots of posts in this thread how having a better possession center would help out the line both offensively and defensively. Enough stats to support it. You don't even need a 7-10 million dollar player. An adequate 2c that can create offense would do. That would allow us to move Kadri up. Line is better right there. Until we get another top 6 center, Bozak is on the top line. Spread the talent out. And we have a hole at #2RW.

 

[Semantics]

If he can hit 50 playing with Lupul and Clarkson. Do you honestly think he wouldn't be around the 70 mark playing with JVR and Kessel?

Especially when you consider Kadri had only two fewer PP points than Kessel, while playing on the 2nd unit and only getting 2/3 as much ice time.

Funny how some people criticize Kadri for the Leafs lack of secondary scoring, while at the same time lauding the top line for the Leafs PP success. No... *Kadri* is the entire reason the Leafs PP was ranked #6. He was the MOST producer player on the whole team on the PP last season, and carried the second unit.

*Very* few teams have a second unit that can do much, let alone outproduce the first unit. Yes, believe it or not, the second unit actually scored the SAME number of PP goals as the first unit (comparing JVR-Bozak-Kessel-Franson-Phaneuf to Lupul-Kadri-Raymond-Gardiner-Rielly, I know the units weren't always configured exactly that way, but that's predominantly where those players played). Sure they don't play the best penalty killers, but they also get way less ice time. That's all Kadri. And Carlyle logic.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Been shown in lots of posts in this thread how having a better possession center would help out the line both offensively and defensively. Enough stats to support it. You don't even need a 7-10 million dollar player. An adequate 2c that can create offense would do. That would allow us to move Kadri up. Line is better right there. Until we get another top 6 center, Bozak is on the top line. Spread the talent out. And we have a hole at #2RW.

How do you explain Gardiner and Franson as a defensive pairing. Our #1 and #3 best possession players on the team last year? They were horrendous together.

 

[diceman934]

I don't know where you are getting your information, but Crosby had 34 first assists in the 12-13 asterisk year. He was 2nd to Malkin on his own team who had 35 1st assists.

Your stats are way off, of Crosby's 41 season assists, you think he only had 19 first assists? Does this make sense to you?

I posted a link and will do one more time to make you understand that you make things up. Malkin never even had 35 assists.....in fact he never had 35 points....so now what?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....ort=points&status=A&team=PIT&viewName=summary

 

[Semantics]

There goes the 'If bozak was playing in game 7 we would of won' nonsense I kept hearing about.

Well - Bozak was getting sheltered minutes that year and did well defensively in them. So he might have been able to give the Grabovski line a little bit more of a rest. But that's exactly why he should be a 2nd or 3rd line depth forward, not someone who is the go to guy in all situations.

Last season Carlyle was literally using Bozak the same way Sundin was used. LOL.

 

[King85Kong]

Especially when you consider Kadri had only two fewer PP points than Kessel, while playing on the 2nd unit and only getting 2/3 as much ice time.

Funny how some people criticize Kadri for the Leafs lack of secondary scoring, while at the same time lauding the top line for the Leafs PP success. No... *Kadri* is the entire reason the Leafs PP was ranked #6. He was the MOST producer player on the whole team on the PP last season, and carried the second unit.

*Very* few teams have a second unit that can do much, let alone outproduce the first unit. Yes, believe it or not, the second unit actually scored the SAME number of PP goals as the first unit (comparing JVR-Bozak-Kessel-Franson-Phaneuf to Lupul-Kadri-Raymond-Gardiner-Rielly, I know the units weren't always configured exactly that way, but that's predominantly where those players played). Sure they don't play the best penalty killers, but they also get way less ice time. That's all Kadri. And Carlyle logic.

Ya I don't get the logic. Makes no sense. It's like a couple posters who claim Bozak to be better, while saying we are a one line team. Then are against moving Bozak off the first line. If Bozak is better and we are a one line team, wouldn't it make more sense to switch him and Kadri to spread the talent out? Talking out of both ends.

 

[Semantics]

Kessel's production with Kadri after Bozak went down Dec 3 - Dec 29. 10 points in 12 games, -5

Why don't you include the other stretch Bozak missed? No need to answer that - I know you wanted to cherry pick the 12 games where the Leafs played a whole bunch of the top defensive teams in the league.

When Bozak came back, Kessel went on a 34 points, 21 games tear, at +4. I know Bozak was just lucky again.

How'd he do after those 21 games when the Leafs were defending their playoff position?

 

[King85Kong]

I posted a link and will do one more time to make you understand that you make things up. Malkin never even had 35 assists.....in fact he never had 35 points....so now what?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....ort=points&status=A&team=PIT&viewName=summary

Come on bro, you know the NHL makes up their stats.

**Runs off to grab tinfoil hat**

 

[Semantics]

I don't know where you are getting your information, but Crosby had 34 first assists in the 12-13 asterisk year. He was 2nd to Malkin on his own team who had 35 1st assists.

Your stats are way off, of Crosby's 41 season assists, you think he only had 19 first assists? Does this make sense to you?

Many of those assists were on the PP.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Been shown in lots of posts in this thread how having a better possession center would help out the line both offensively and defensively. Enough stats to support it. You don't even need a 7-10 million dollar player. An adequate 2C that can create offense would do. That would allow us to move Kadri up. Line is better right there. Until we get another top 6 center, Bozak is on the top line. Spread the talent out. And we have a hole at #2RW.

It's a tough argument to make either way earlier on, there was a stat I can't recall the specifics but it talked about how much TOI the first line has and it was a lot and the argument was brought up that the first line was on the ice for more goals then they should be and scoring less then that TOI warranted. The flaw I find to this thinking is after a a certain point overplaying is going to be causing a negative effect regardless of whose on the line and last year clearly showed that we relied on the first line too much.


Since I moved out West I watch almost every single game since the 4 PM start time really works with my work schedule, time and time again I saw the first line played because they were the only line with any chances at scoring. I'll admit I'm not a big stats guy so I won't throw numbers at you but it just seems in this thread alone whether pro or anti Bozak both sides seem to toss allot of numbers out and interpret them to whatever best suits their viewpoint.

End of the day I think we have more success if we have this sort of lineup and I'm not convinced that Bozak is even Average I'd think he's closer to good, I'm not against splitting them up it just strikes me as way too many eggs in one basket to put Kessel and Kadri together.

Good Winger(JVR)/Average Center (Bozak)/Elite Winger (Kessel)
Good Winger (Lupul)/Good/Great Center (Kadri) /Average Winger (TBD)

Anyways just my thoughts, I think a lot of it will have to do with how our new acquisitions stack up, whatever is best for the team is what I'm hoping for.

 

[diceman934]

Many of those assists were on the PP.

Yep and Malkin was getting first assists from the Press box!

 

[Semantics]

When Bozak came back, Kessel went on a 34 points, 21 games tear, at +4. I know Bozak was just lucky again.

This isn't quite correct I think. He had 32 points and +4 in 21 games, or 34 points and +5 in 22 games from what I see.

And to answer my own counter to save you the great pain I know you'd go through to cherry pick something else, after those 22 games he scored 11 points in the final 20 games and -9.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I posted a link and will do one more time to make you understand that you make things up. Malkin never even had 35 assists.....in fact he never had 35 points....so now what?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....ort=points&status=A&team=PIT&viewName=summary

You posted Kadri led the NHL in first assists in the asterisk 12-13 season. He didn't, not when Kessel and Crosby had more first assists. You were not correct. No need to get mad.

http://www.extraskater.com/player/7/sidney-crosby

http://www.extraskater.com/player/475/phil-kessel

 

[diceman934]

Come on bro, you know the NHL makes up their stats.

**Runs off to grab tinfoil hat**

Thanks.....I had to clean off my lap top as I just took a drink of beer when I read this!

 

[King85Kong]

It's a tough argument to make either way earlier on, there was a stat I can't recall the specifics but it talked about how much TOI the first line has and it was a lot and the argument was brought up that the first line was on the ice for more goals then they should be and scoring less then that TOI warranted. The flaw I find to this thinking is after a a certain point overplaying is going to be causing a negative effect regardless of whose on the line and last year clearly showed that we relied on the first line too much.


Since I moved out West I watch almost every single game since the 4 PM start time really works with my work schedule, time and time again I saw the first line played because they were the only line with any chances at scoring. I'll admit I'm not a big stats guy so I won't throw numbers at you but it just seems in this thread alone whether pro or anti Bozak both sides seem to toss allot of numbers out and interpret them to whatever best suits their viewpoint.

End of the day I think we have more success if we have this sort of lineup and I'm not convinced that Bozak is even Average I'd think he's closer to good, I'm not against splitting them up it just strikes me as way too many eggs in one basket to put Kessel and Kadri together.

Good Winger(JVR)/Average Center (Bozak)/Elite Winger (Kessel)
Good Winger (Lupul)/Good/Great Center (Kadri) /Average Winger (TBD)

Anyways just my thoughts, I think a lot of it will have to do with how our new acquisitions stack up, whatever is best for the team is what I'm hoping for.

They got the most minutes because they are the first line, very comparable to other top NHL lines. But when you look at their stats defensively they don't look good. Stats improved with Kadri on it. However, I have said repeatedly that for the time being I would leave Bozak on the top line to spread out the talent. Happy to have as many peoples input as possible. Discussions bring out new ideas and opportunities.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

This isn't quite correct I think. He had 32 points and +4 in 21 games, or 34 points and +5 in 22 games from what I see.

And to answer my own counter to save you the great pain I know you'd go through to cherry pick something else, after those 22 games he scored 11 points in the final 20 games and -9.

This is the key point I want you to address that was in your reply that Kessel was not a disaster defensively with Kadri. Is this not?

When Bozak came back, Kessel went on a 34 points, 21 games tear, at +4. I know Bozak was just lucky again.

Kessel's stats with Kadri when Bozak was hurt Dec 3 - 9

27 DEC '13 BUF @ TOR 1 1 2 0
23 DEC '13 TOR @ NYR 0 0 0 0
21 DEC '13 DET @ TOR 0 1 1 -1
19 DEC '13 PHX @ TOR 0 0 0 0
17 DEC '13 FLA @ TOR 0 0 0 -2
16 DEC '13 TOR @ PIT 0 0 0 -1
14 DEC '13 CHI @ TOR 1 0 1 0
12 DEC '13 TOR @ STL 0 1 1 -1
11 DEC '13 LAK @ TOR 0 1 1 -1
08 DEC '13 BOS @ TOR 0 0 0 -2
07 DEC '13 TOR @ OTT 1 1 2 2
05 DEC '13 DAL @ TOR 0 2 2 1

 

[AD1066]

I posted a link and will do one more time to make you understand that you make things up. Malkin never even had 35 assists.....in fact he never had 35 points....so now what?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....ort=points&status=A&team=PIT&viewName=summary

You posted Kadri led the NHL in first assists in the asterisk 12-13 season. He didn't, not when Kessel and Crosby had more first assists. You were not correct. No need to get mad.

http://www.extraskater.com/player/7/sidney-crosby

http://www.extraskater.com/player/475/phil-kessel

One of you is referencing even-strength play, the other is looking at total stats.

Kadri was 8th in the league that year for first assists in all situations, and 1st at even-strength play.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/standard?sit=5v5&season=2012&sort=a1

 

[Banic]

You posted Kadri led the NHL in first assists in the asterisk 12-13 season. He didn't, not when Kessel and Crosby had more first assists. You were not correct. No need to get mad.

http://www.extraskater.com/player/7/sidney-crosby

http://www.extraskater.com/player/475/phil-kessel

He just posted stats that showed Malkin did not get the numbers you quoted. So you weren't correct either?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

One of you is referencing even-strength play, the other is looking at total stats.

Kadri was 8th in the league that year for first assists in all situations, and 1st at even-strength play.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/standard?sit=5v5&season=2012&sort=a1

He said first in 1st assists, never mentioned 5 on 5. but given the OP is simply can we win, which I asked specifically what win means? A winning season, A playoff rd or stanley cup? Your guess is as good as mine what he meant.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

He just posted stats that showed Malkin did not get the numbers you quoted. So you weren't correct either?

I just forgot to flip the year on the page, so yes, that was my oversight. But I knew Crosby and Kessel had more first assists than Kadri that year. Which I confirmed earlier today when I looked them up. It was a no brainer.

 

[diceman934]

He said first in 1st assists, never mentioned 5 on 5. but given the OP is simply can we win, which I asked specifically what win means? A winning season, A playoff rd or stanley cup? Your guess is as good as mine what he meant.

The links I posted showed clearly they were 5 on 5 stat

I guess reading and looking at the links would have been nice. They were very clear! Nothing I said was not true!

Malkin lead the league in first assists with 35 when he clearly did not have 35 points.

I also posted why I felt that we need a better center.....but you again failed to read this!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The links I posted showed clearly they were 5 on 5 stat

I guess reading and looking at the links would have been nice. They were very clear! Nothing I said was not true!

Malkin lead the league in first assists with 35 when he clearly did not have 35 points.

I also posted why I felt that we need a better center.....but you again failed to read this!

Nice save!

But you do not post quote Kadri led the NHL in 1st assists in the thread, and then say I meant 5 on 5. I think you didn't see the 5 on 5 and thought it was overall, but okay let's move on.

I asked you the other night to clarify your OP, what exactly do you mean can we win with Bozak as our #1C?

Why don't you? If you mean a playoff round then a lot of posters except a few would say yes. It would help to clarify such a vague OP. As it stands it could be win just about anything. Ie. A playoff game, a playoff rd, the conference, a cup…ect..

 

[agropop]

Having a first line that gets buried on the shot clock and Fenwick chart game in, game out won't win us anything, regardless of what 'winning' is more narrowly defined to mean. Nothing is nothing.

 

[Eb]

Two things relating to this recent Bozak discussion.

1) I don't buy the fact that he's just super selective with his shots. Fact is, a team's best players usually lead their team's in shots taken (kessel, Malkin, Stamkos, Crosby, Hall, ect, ect). Bozak isn't the league's most selective/best sniper - he's just often in the right place at the right time - ie luck, which isn't sustainable.

2) It's a fallacy to assume that because Bozak started int he NHL later than most players, his scoring peak will be later than the average. Players tend to peak around 24-28 because that's by far the best physical shape they'll ever be in. That's not to say a player can't be incredibly productive past 28, but the statistical average for career years is below that period.

This is the most disgraceful post in this thread.

Most hockey fanatics (except a handful in this thread) would account this to Bozak being one of the smartest players on our team.

 

[Pyromaniac3]

Kessel's production with Kadri after Bozak went down Dec 3 - Dec 29. 10 points in 12 games, -5

Chart below validates the line was a disaster defensively and less productive.

When Bozak came back, Kessel went on a 34 points, 21 games tear, at +4. I know Bozak was just lucky again.

Kessel's stats with Kadri when Bozak was hurt Dec 3 - 9

27 DEC '13 BUF @ TOR 1 1 2 0
23 DEC '13 TOR @ NYR 0 0 0 0
21 DEC '13 DET @ TOR 0 1 1 -1
19 DEC '13 PHX @ TOR 0 0 0 0
17 DEC '13 FLA @ TOR 0 0 0 -2
16 DEC '13 TOR @ PIT 0 0 0 -1
14 DEC '13 CHI @ TOR 1 0 1 0
12 DEC '13 TOR @ STL 0 1 1 -1
11 DEC '13 LAK @ TOR 0 1 1 -1
08 DEC '13 BOS @ TOR 0 0 0 -2
07 DEC '13 TOR @ OTT 1 1 2 2
05 DEC '13 DAL @ TOR 0 2 2 1

In 7 of those games, McClement played more than Kadri. So in a way, McClement was the #1 centre in 7 of those games.