Turris and Zibanejad potentially elite center combo

[Smitty26]

That it's highly unlikely for an NHL player to hit 60 points ever! Very few ever hit the mark, and even fewer do it consistently.

As a centre it's even MORE difficult because you are expected to drive the offence while your wingers rack up their 60 point seasons off YOU.

interesting....is there a study on that? i didnt think it was that rare. I feel like 70 points, sure....but 60 points doesn't seem like it would be that rare would it?

perhaps you have to include into your reasoning, what percentage of top 10 picks are of that 60 point player threshold. That would certainly increase the odds on turris and zibbys chances of being a part of that group?

 

[Ice-Tray]

interesting....is there a study on that? i didnt think it was that rare. I feel like 70 points, sure....but 60 points doesn't seem like it would be that rare would it?

perhaps you have to include into your reasoning, what percentage of top 10 picks are of that 60 point player threshold. That would certainly increase the odds on turris and zibbys chances of being a part of that group?

Somebody already put together the stats, I'm sure someone will chime in here with them.

 

[Ice-Tray]

49 players scored 60 or more points this year, 18 scored 70 or more

 

[Benjamin]

No it's not. We really shouldn't get into playing that game. Turris is not as good a player as Bergeron, there's no shame in that.

Kyle Turris was 22nd highest scoring center in 13-14.

Bergeron was the 19th highest scoring cener in 05-06.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Kyle Turris was 22nd highest scoring center in 13-14.

Bergeron was the 19th highest scoring cener in 05-06.

Alright Benny, you're right, they're the same. Run along now.

 

[trentmccleary]

Excellent post. I came here to post this like 3 minutes ago. Comparing offensive production 6+ years ago to now is irrelevant because of the lower scoring league wide.

Turris, relative to league scoring, has matched offensive capabilities of Bergeron/Krejci when they were firing. Bergeron now is arguably better offensive player than he was in the past.

And we all know Turris could probably have scored 5-10 points more if Ryan stayed healthy. 68 points this year is like 75-80 7 or whatever years ago.

Matched?

Bergeron was 41st (20yo) and 44th (21yo) amongst forwards in his first 2 seasons. 36th this season.

Krejci was 32nd (22yo) in his first 70 point season and was 22nd this season.

Turris was 51st this season (24yo) gettng similar ice time to what they typically get with linemates who produce the same or more as those Boston centers.

Turris was the best of his linemates though.

Fisher consistently outproduced (PPG) his linemates by a great extent in many cases, while Turris has not.

I'm not sure where you were going with this argument. Did you look anything up before you posted it?

The injury was a pretty big issue for Ryan starting in early December. That's when his goal scoring and offensive production started to drop off (Dec 5th). By January, it became noticable that he was slumping, and that's when people started to criticize the trade and try to validate Burke's criticisms.

Turris's post-Olympic 'dive' was still 14 points in 23 games, a 50 point pace. He certainly struggled, but attributing that exclusively to Ryan's injury seems to ignore how well he played in January with an injured Ryan bouncing on and off his wing. For comparison's sake, Ryan was at a mediocre 0.5 PPG pace during January, which, again, was nearly a PPG month for Turris.

Ryan posted a PPG in line with his past 3 seasons. If he'd played the last 12 games at that PPG rate, he'd have posted 8 points. Stone posted 6 points in those 12 games.

And I have to disagree with your last point. If a player has 58 points, it's way more accurate to say he's a 60 point player than to label him a 50 point guy.

And yes, I think 49 points is essentially a 50 goal scorer. I'm not going to run around acting like a 49 goal scorer is way less valuable than a guy who got 50.

It's more accurate to say that a player who posts a 50 point pace two years in a row and then produces 58 points is a 58 point player. Just as it is more accurate to say that a player who posts a 66 point pace two years in a row and then produces 58 points is a 60 point player.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Matched?

Bergeron was 41st (20yo) and 44th (21yo) amongst forwards in his first 2 seasons. 36th this season.

Krejci was 32nd (22yo) in his first 70 point season and was 22nd this season.

Turris was 51st this season (24yo) gettng similar ice time to what they typically get with linemates who produce the same or more as those Boston centers.




Fisher consistently outproduced (PPG) his linemates by a great extent in many cases, while Turris has not.

I'm not sure where you were going with this argument. Did you look anything up before you posted it?

1st = I'm talking production, not tie breakers or rankings. In terms of points Bergeron was tied for 25th, Krejci tied for 19th and Turris this year tied for 24th.

2nd = I meant that even though Turris had muchhh better wingers, Turris was still the one stirring the drink. Whenever Fisher had great wingers he wasn't on par or keeping up with them.

 

[The Fuhr*]

I'd rather wait and see what EM does first.

Considering what the team spent last year and were over budget and the budget the team has this season.., I would not hold my breath on EM opening up the check book

 

[Proust*]

Very nicely put, and my sentiments exactly.

I will add that I believe that he is a brilliant 2C on a cup contending team.

How can you agree that "he might get 60 pts a few times" when you agreed with trent that Turris is at his peak, and put up 58 points in the greatest line-mate situation of all-time?

Will there be tailwind next year that could get him to 61?


As an aside, IF he puts up 60-65 pts/year playing the all-around game he displayed this year, he is a better player than Jason Spezza, outside of that one killer year Spezza had.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

How can you agree that "he might get 60 pts a few times" when you agreed with trent that Turris is at his peak, and put up 58 points in the greatest line-mate situation of all-time?

Will there be tailwind next year that could get him to 61?


As an aside, IF he puts up 60-65 pts/year playing the all-around game he displayed this year, he is a better player than Jason Spezza, outside of that one killer year Spezza had.

If he can get 58, he can pass 60 no doubt, they're basically equal.

 

[trentmccleary]

1st = I'm talking production, not tie breakers or rankings. In terms of points Bergeron was tied for 25th, Krejci tied for 19th and Turris this year tied for 24th.

2nd = I meant that even though Turris had muchhh better wingers, Turris was still the one stirring the drink. Whenever Fisher had great wingers he wasn't on par or keeping up with them.

So if we take the narrow view of only comparing him to centers and use his 24yo season vs their 20yo and 22yo seasons...

When did Fisher have great wingers?

How can you agree that "he might get 60 pts a few times" when you agreed with trent that Turris is at his peak, and put up 58 points in the greatest line-mate situation of all-time?

Will there be tailwind next year that could get him to 61?


As an aside, IF he puts up 60-65 pts/year playing the all-around game he displayed this year, he is a better player than Jason Spezza, outside of that one killer year Spezza had.

1 season doesn't make a player. He may crack 60 points at some, but he'll also probably average 55 for the next decade.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

People are forgetting one thing: The league right now is changing very rapidly.

What is a penalty now was a great hockey play 3 years ago.

A play guys can get away with now would've put them in the hospital 5 years ago.

A team's system that was foolproof a decade ago is worthless now.

We have no idea what skillset will be best for the center position, what system will work best in the league, or what the freaking rules of the league will even be 3-5 years from now.

Exactly how the heck are we supposed to build a contending team when the goalposts keep getting moved every season?

 

[The Fuhr*]

People are forgetting one thing: The league right now is changing very rapidly.

What is a penalty now was a great hockey play 3 years ago.

A play guys can get away with now would've put them in the hospital 5 years ago.

A team's system that was foolproof a decade ago is worthless now.

We have no idea what skillset will be best for the center position, what system will work best in the league, or what the freaking rules of the league will even be 3-5 years from now.

Exactly how the heck are we supposed to build a contending team when the goalposts keep getting moved every season?

Build a team that can skate, back check and pass the puck... if you can do that no matter what the rules are you will kill it.

A fast team that commits to defense and owns the puck 60-65% is going to win games... build the team around those traits

 

[BankStreetParade]

49 players scored 60 or more points this year, 18 scored 70 or more

Those are disturbing numbers.

Number of players with 70+ point seasons per year:

1997-1998: 21
1998-1999: 22
1999-2000: 29
2000-2001: 47
2001-2002: 24
2002-2003: 29
2003-2004: 20
2004-2005: 0 (lockout)
2005-2006: 49
2006-2007: 44
2007-2008: 39
2008-2009: 40
2009-2010: 30
2010-2011: 24
2011-2012: 21
2012-2013: 0 (shortened year)
2013-2014: 18

I think the reason for the jump in 2000-2001 can potentially be partially attributed to the introduction of the full time 2 referee system which saw the overall number of penalties increase resulting in more scoring. The jump in 05-06 is due to a number of rule changes, in-game implementations and far more penalty calls. And I mean far more penalty calls.

In 2013-2014, the team that received the most powerplay opportunities had 294. In 2005-2006, that number was 541. In fact, in 05-06, no team received less than 411 PP opportunities. This is staggering incompetence on the part of the NHL and the referees who officiate the game. The fact that the game has been allowed to slip that far back and allowed for less talented players to even the playing field by clutching, grabbing, interfering and hooking the opposition is disgusting.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Build a team that can skate, back check and pass the puck... if you can do that no matter what the rules are you will kill it.

A fast team that commits to defense and owns the puck 60-65% is going to win games... build the team around those traits

...unless the NHL decides the game is too fast (injury-wise) and lets the hooking and holding come back into play. Then the fast teams are neutered.

That's the thing. The league has been changing the rules and (most importantly) officiating standards so often the last 10 years, and the media has taken up the crusade to scream about hockey violence every time a speck of blood hits the ice, it's nearly impossible to predict what kind of team will succeed when our kids are ready to hit their prime (another 4-5 years).

That's what gets me. How do we even decide what kind of team we want to be and what kind of talent to draft when there's no consistency in this league?

 

[Icelevel]

Build a team that can skate, back check and pass the puck... if you can do that no matter what the rules are you will kill it.

A fast team that commits to defense and owns the puck 60-65% is going to win games... build the team around those traits

have you seen burns, thornton, chara, lucic, getzlaf, perry, backes?

gonna need some size too

 

[The Fuhr*]

...unless the NHL decides the game is too fast (injury-wise) and lets the hooking and holding come back into play. Then the fast teams are neutered.

That's the thing. The league has been changing the rules and (most importantly) officiating standards so often the last 10 years, and the media has taken up the crusade to scream about hockey violence every time a speck of blood hits the ice, it's nearly impossible to predict what kind of team will succeed when our kids are ready to hit their prime (another 4-5 years).

That's what gets me. How do we even decide what kind of team we want to be and what kind of talent to draft when there's no consistency in this league?

If the league does that just adjust on the fly... that puck possession defensive system stays built around speed but you add a couple big mobile guys like Cowen back there and let them hook away.

 

[The Fuhr*]

have you seen burns, thornton, chara, lucic, getzlaf, perry, backes?

gonna need some size too

I agree... I'd target bigger players with the skill sets I want

 

[The Waffler]

Turris has a bit more production than Fisher did, but is much less physical.

Yet, people were out to lunch thinking Fisher was a #1 C.

And now Spezza isn't a #1 C and Turris is..

Opinions, man. woah.

 

[The Fuhr*]

Turris has a bit more production than Fisher did, but is much less physical.

Yet, people were out to lunch thinking Fisher was a #1 C.

And now Spezza isn't a #1 C and Turris is..

Opinions, man. woah.

Game changed... I led the charge against Fisher... but the way game is evolving, a prime Fisher would be pretty killer.

 

[NyQuil]

It's not just the game - it's the cap.

We can't field many elite players because we won't have the budget.

We're going to have to rely on multiple lines that can take care of both ends of the ice.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I agree... I'd target bigger players with the skill sets I want

You and 29 other teams. The big, fast, skilled guys with a high hockey IQ don't exactly grow on trees.

I wish I had your optimism, I really do. I'm just not feeling it with this franchise and the league right now. Whatever way we go to build, that'll be the way the NHL tries to steer away from.

 

[Icelevel]

I agree... I'd target bigger players with the skill sets I want

the addition of a couple of these guys although hard to come by would help in so many ways. from creating space for everyone, creating chances down low, adding to the confidence and swagger of the whole team. i think it is essential. sooner the better.

penner and cracknell are the only 2 ufas i can find. i've been hoping for both for a couple years as easier cheaper targets but not sure if now the time has past for them.
admittedly these players are hard to find. so BM locked up greening.

 

[The Waffler]

Game changed... I led the charge against Fisher... but the way game is evolving, a prime Fisher would be pretty killer.

I know you did, that's why I brought it up.

But I dunno about Fisher. I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

the addition of a couple of these guys although hard to come by would help in so many ways. from creating space for everyone, creating chances down low, adding to the confidence and swagger of the whole team. i think it is essential. sooner the better.

penner and cracknell are the only 2 ufas i can find. i've been hoping for both for a couple years as easier cheaper targets but not sure if now the time has past for them.
admittedly these players are hard to find. so BM locked up greening.

lol, kinda funny you said that. Back when Torts was an analyst on TSN before the Rangers gig, he said the exact same thing about the Sens. No swagger (or swaggah, as he said it).