Turris and Zibanejad potentially elite center combo

CanadianHockey

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Ryan posted a PPG in line with his past 3 seasons. If he'd played the last 12 games at that PPG rate, he'd have posted 8 points. Stone posted 6 points in those 12 games.

I'm not sure how this contradicts my point.

Turris' best two months were October and January. Played mostly with MacArthur and Ryan in those two months. Ryan's production had dropped off by January due to his injury.

In the last month or so, with Stone filling in for Ryan, Stone produced at a similar pace to Ryan, but Turris's production dropped off to a 50 point pace.

It's more accurate to say that a player who posts a 50 point pace two years in a row and then produces 58 points is a 58 point player. Just as it is more accurate to say that a player who posts a 66 point pace two years in a row and then produces 58 points is a 60 point player.

Getting sidetracked with semantics.

Turris is a 55-60 point guy if this season is his norm. I think we all agree on that.
 

Suiteness

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Game changed... I led the charge against Fisher... but the way game is evolving, a prime Fisher would be pretty killer.

Yup, great point. Reminds me of our 6-game lost to Pittsburgh, what year was it? 09? Spezza led our team in scoring but he matched up against Crosby who put up a record for points in a playoff series. When Clouston switched the matchup to Fisher/Crosby, I don't think Crosby put up a point in the last two games.

So yeah, Spezza can score more than Krejci, Bergeron, Toews, Kopitar, etc. but these guys can actually be on the ice against other top centers of the game and not straight up kill you.

So what do you do with Spezza? Keep him on the bench and deploy for pp's?
 

Sens Rule

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Yup, great point. Reminds me of our 6-game lost to Pittsburgh, what year was it? 09? Spezza led our team in scoring but he matched up against Crosby who put up a record for points in a playoff series. When Clouston switched the matchup to Fisher/Crosby, I don't think Crosby put up a point in the last two games.

So yeah, Spezza can score more than Krejci, Bergeron, Toews, Kopitar, etc. but these guys can actually be on the ice against other top centers of the game and not straight up kill you.

So what do you do with Spezza? Keep him on the bench and deploy for pp's?

It is Sidney Crosby..... Perhaps at his best level ever in that playoff series. The Sens outplayed the Pens aside from Crosby being a force of nature. Did Fisher really shut down Crosby? No one could the way he played. Not Bergeron or anyone. Crosby was a monster. We all remember Spezza chasing Crosby back and forth behind the net. What else could he have done? Spezza at that point was at his best defensively. Better then now and better then the Pizza lines best years.

Spezza is not near one of the best 2 way forwards... But bringing up Crosby
Where Crosby was not just regular Crosby but force of nature peak Crosby. Not fair
 

Ice-Tray

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How can you agree that "he might get 60 pts a few times" when you agreed with trent that Turris is at his peak, and put up 58 points in the greatest line-mate situation of all-time?

Because peak skill doesn't have an absolute point value, and that was what Trent was talking about.

Will there be tailwind next year that could get him to 61?

Huh? I don't think you understand the point being made.

As an aside, IF he puts up 60-65 pts/year playing the all-around game he displayed this year, he is a better player than Jason Spezza, outside of that one killer year Spezza had.

One killer year? Say what you want about Spezza's defence, but when you start lying flat out with statements like this, you lose all credibility. It's more like the first half of the year was the first 'bad' stretch of Spezza's career.
 

Smitty26

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Oct 24, 2011
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One killer year? Say what you want about Spezza's defence, but when you start lying flat out with statements like this, you lose all credibility. It's more like the first half of the year was the first 'bad' stretch of Spezza's career.

This. And as an organization, lets crucify him for it.....who cares that he was coming off major surgery and an entire missed year, right?
 

Do Make Say Think

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It is Sidney Crosby..... Perhaps at his best level ever in that playoff series. The Sens outplayed the Pens aside from Crosby being a force of nature. Did Fisher really shut down Crosby? No one could the way he played. Not Bergeron or anyone. Crosby was a monster. We all remember Spezza chasing Crosby back and forth behind the net. What else could he have done? Spezza at that point was at his best defensively. Better then now and better then the Pizza lines best years.

Spezza is not near one of the best 2 way forwards... But bringing up Crosby
Where Crosby was not just regular Crosby but force of nature peak Crosby. Not fair

That play was ridiculously overrated

Spezza played it about as perfectly as you'd want him to

The issue was Crosby passed it because he couldn't do anything else due to Spezza and Elliott let in a shot from the point right after

The problem wasn't Spezza on that play, the problem was the goaltender
 

HSF

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That play was ridiculously overrated

Spezza played it about as perfectly as you'd want him to

The issue was Crosby passed it because he couldn't do anything else due to Spezza and Elliott let in a shot from the point right after

The problem wasn't Spezza on that play, the problem was the goaltender

and the player covering the point. IIRC letang had all the time in the world
 

Dr.Sens(e)

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That play was ridiculously overrated

Spezza played it about as perfectly as you'd want him to

The issue was Crosby passed it because he couldn't do anything else due to Spezza and Elliott let in a shot from the point right after

The problem wasn't Spezza on that play, the problem was the goaltender

Totally agree. Never understood everyone making a big deal of that play, other than Spezza was left along on Crosby for so long and contained him. Crosby actually wanted to spin out of the check and make his way to the net. Spezza forced him to make a pass. I thought he played it fine.
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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That play was ridiculously overrated

Spezza played it about as perfectly as you'd want him to

The issue was Crosby passed it because he couldn't do anything else due to Spezza and Elliott let in a shot from the point right after

The problem wasn't Spezza on that play, the problem was the goaltender

No ****ing kidding. He passed it to the point after Spezza covered him and kept him from the front of the net.
 

Sens Rule

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I don't think Swagger has much to do with size. It has to do with a killer attitude on the ice. Focused, relentless, tireless. Or pesky + talent + confidence. Like Alfredsson was. He had swaggar. Doug Gilmour had Sawggar. He brimmed with confidence. Bergeron, Toews have got it. Datsyuk has it. And these guys do not get many PIMS. Crosby. Gretzky. Neil has swaggar, diminished as he is from his peak. It seems false but I don't think it is. Perry and Getzlav ooze it.

I think Lazar has it in Junior and will have it here next season. I think Pageau has it on the ice. He just buzzes everywhere making smart plays on both ends of the ice. Who cares if he is small> He doesn't and he will hit guys hard. Karlsson definitely has swaggar.

It would be nice to have big players but we do have Cowen, Methot. Stone is pretty big.

I think Spezza gains swaggar on a really good team that wins a lot more then it loses. I think it weighs on him to be injured often and for the team not to be great anymore like it was at the start of his career. Spezza can dominate when he is really "on" as good as almost any other forward in the NHL.

Both Lehner and Anderson possess a high degree of swaggar. Both can get on long runs where they are extremely good. This past year both were inconsistent. I doubt that continues next season, Anderson at the start of last season was the definition of swaggar. He was so effortless and used the minimum possible movements and he drowned almost every rebound. After he cut himself he lost focus that he had since the start of training camp and he has not been quite the same since.

This team if it is lacking in "swaggar" as long as things don't go totally to crap likes this year. Is "Swaggar" dominating guys easily like Karlsson or destroying guys with big hits like Torres?

Like Wiercioch. He is not a tough guy at all. But some of the crazy passes he has made it shows a huge confidence to even try them and he is wuite often successful in really deft long passes. Far more often then when it seems he messes up an attempt to do them. That is swaggarish. Is it not?
 

Nac Mac Feegle

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Jun 10, 2011
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I don't think Swagger has much to do with size. It has to do with a killer attitude on the ice. Focused, relentless, tireless. Or pesky + talent + confidence. Like Alfredsson was. He had swaggar. Doug Gilmour had Sawggar. He brimmed with confidence. Bergeron, Toews have got it. Datsyuk has it. And these guys do not get many PIMS. Crosby. Gretzky. Neil has swaggar, diminished as he is from his peak. It seems false but I don't think it is. Perry and Getzlav ooze it.

I think Lazar has it in Junior and will have it here next season. I think Pageau has it on the ice. He just buzzes everywhere making smart plays on both ends of the ice. Who cares if he is small> He doesn't and he will hit guys hard. Karlsson definitely has swaggar.

It would be nice to have big players but we do have Cowen, Methot. Stone is pretty big.

I think Spezza gains swaggar on a really good team that wins a lot more then it loses. I think it weighs on him to be injured often and for the team not to be great anymore like it was at the start of his career. Spezza can dominate when he is really "on" as good as almost any other forward in the NHL.

Both Lehner and Anderson possess a high degree of swaggar. Both can get on long runs where they are extremely good. This past year both were inconsistent. I doubt that continues next season, Anderson at the start of last season was the definition of swaggar. He was so effortless and used the minimum possible movements and he drowned almost every rebound. After he cut himself he lost focus that he had since the start of training camp and he has not been quite the same since.

This team if it is lacking in "swaggar" as long as things don't go totally to crap likes this year. Is "Swaggar" dominating guys easily like Karlsson or destroying guys with big hits like Torres?

Like Wiercioch. He is not a tough guy at all. But some of the crazy passes he has made it shows a huge confidence to even try them and he is wuite often successful in really deft long passes. Far more often then when it seems he messes up an attempt to do them. That is swaggarish. Is it not?

Exactly.

Swagger is attitude. The "I'm better than you and you're not going to beat me at anything" air of confidence. It's the kind of thing where a guy would plow through a brick wall to win and has the skills to back it up.

Gilmour is the perfect example.
 

ReginKarlssonLehner

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I don't think Swagger has much to do with size. It has to do with a killer attitude on the ice. Focused, relentless, tireless. Or pesky + talent + confidence. Like Alfredsson was. He had swaggar. Doug Gilmour had Sawggar. He brimmed with confidence. Bergeron, Toews have got it. Datsyuk has it. And these guys do not get many PIMS. Crosby. Gretzky. Neil has swaggar, diminished as he is from his peak. It seems false but I don't think it is. Perry and Getzlav ooze it.

I think Lazar has it in Junior and will have it here next season. I think Pageau has it on the ice. He just buzzes everywhere making smart plays on both ends of the ice. Who cares if he is small> He doesn't and he will hit guys hard. Karlsson definitely has swaggar.

It would be nice to have big players but we do have Cowen, Methot. Stone is pretty big.

I think Spezza gains swaggar on a really good team that wins a lot more then it loses. I think it weighs on him to be injured often and for the team not to be great anymore like it was at the start of his career. Spezza can dominate when he is really "on" as good as almost any other forward in the NHL.

Both Lehner and Anderson possess a high degree of swaggar. Both can get on long runs where they are extremely good. This past year both were inconsistent. I doubt that continues next season, Anderson at the start of last season was the definition of swaggar. He was so effortless and used the minimum possible movements and he drowned almost every rebound. After he cut himself he lost focus that he had since the start of training camp and he has not been quite the same since.

This team if it is lacking in "swaggar" as long as things don't go totally to crap likes this year. Is "Swaggar" dominating guys easily like Karlsson or destroying guys with big hits like Torres?

Like Wiercioch. He is not a tough guy at all. But some of the crazy passes he has made it shows a huge confidence to even try them and he is wuite often successful in really deft long passes. Far more often then when it seems he messes up an attempt to do them. That is swaggarish. Is it not?

Yeo, excellent post. Swagger + determined/winning attitude whatever you wanna call it, you're right.

This year, so much guys without it, basically passengers, were on this team which pissed me off.

Smith can either have immense "swagger" or be a huge passenger. Greening, Phillips, Cowen, Wiercioch, Michalek they don't got it. Michalek used to BIG TIME but his fear of getting injured again shows in his play--especially on the freakin boards.

Cowen has the ability to regain his, more of a lack of IQ than hesitancy in his play, imo.
 

PoutineSp00nZ

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Jul 21, 2009
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:(

I lost any swagger as a fan because of 2000-2004. I now watch all Sens playoff games in fear.

It's a life lesson i think, about the silliness of heavily investing ourselves into something over which we have absolutely no control. At least that's how I look at it for myself!
 

Ice-Tray

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It's a life lesson i think, about the silliness of heavily investing ourselves into something over which we have absolutely no control. At least that's how I look at it for myself!

Exactly, and the beauty is that you can ride the emotional highs, and be nonchalant during the lows.

Perfect really, for me, and everyone that has to share space with me!
 

SilverSeven

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Apr 16, 2007
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One killer year? Say what you want about Spezza's defence, but when you start lying flat out with statements like this, you lose all credibility. It's more like the first half of the year was the first 'bad' stretch of Spezza's career.

AMEN!

Spezza has been an elite player his entire career, and people are roasting him for a few months of a bad play. Its disgusting.
 

The Fuhr*

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AMEN!

Spezza has been an elite player his entire career, and people are roasting him for a few months of a bad play. Its disgusting.

Since Spezzas contact extension
08/09 82-32-73 -14 26Hits (Made 8.0)
09/10 60-23-57 +0 23Hits (Made 8.0)
10/11 62-21-57 -7 14Hits (Made 8.0)
11/12 80-34-84 +11 28Hits (Made 8.0)
12/13 5-2-5 +3 0Hits (Made 8.0 per 82GP... Not sure the lockout number)
13/14 75-23-66 -26 17Hits (Made 5.0)

So the last six years would it be fair to say Spezza only lived up to his pay per season once?
 

Sens Rule

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Sep 22, 2005
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Since Spezzas contact extension
08/09 82-32-73 -14 26Hits (Made 8.0)
09/10 60-23-57 +0 23Hits (Made 8.0)
10/11 62-21-57 -7 14Hits (Made 8.0)
11/12 80-34-84 +11 28Hits (Made 8.0)
12/13 5-2-5 +3 0Hits (Made 8.0 per 82GP... Not sure the lockout number)
13/14 75-23-66 -26 17Hits (Made 5.0)

So the last six years would it be fair to say Spezza only lived up to his pay per season once?

08/09 28th in points. 23rd in goals. 41st ppg
09/10 63rd in points. 71st in goals . 24th ppg
10/11 54th in points. 84th in goals. 22nd ppg
11/12 4th in points. 15th in goals. 6th ppg
12/13 injured
13/14 28th in points. 61st in goals. 25th ppg.

What is it you expect Spezza to do? He had one total write off injury year and 2 years where he missed 1/4 the season. Can't really control for injuries.

In a given year there are about 600 skaters that play 30+ games in the NHL.

This is the percentile rank of the numbers above:

points goals points per game
95.3 96.2 93.2
89.5 88.2 96
91 86 96.3
99.3 97.5 99
injured
95.3 89.8 95.8
total
94.28 91.54 96.06

So over his contract not including the year he played 5 games, so 5 years, he is in the top 6 percentile of NHL skaters in points. Top 8.5 percentile in goals scored and 4% in points per game.

With 20 skaters a team and 30 teams, the average best scorer on a team would be in the 95th percentile, 2nd best 90th percentile.

Those numbers are a lot more relevant then hits and +/- to Spezza's role on this team and in the NHL.

So in the 5 seasons he got to play of the 6 he was on average a teams top point producer and top point producer per game and the 2nd best goal scorer.

What do you expect for $7 million a season on average from a scorer? It was a top contract. He got paid well, among the best in the NHL. Stil he produces at a level that is reasonable to expect for the contract to your top scoring forward.... and at the time Heatley's contract was for even more per season. Almost all 7 year contracts in pro sports have years where they do not seem like the greatest deal. Spezza's has to be better then most of them with him having only one write off season and otherwise producing at a pretty consistently excellent level. His worst points per game were 41st in the NHL. Not that bad. Best 6th in points per game.

Spezza is making what he should be. Neither too much or too little. It is just what you pay a guy that was producing as well as Spezza was when he signed it and the pizza line was flying. Hard to expect Spezza to produce the numbers he was when he had peak Alfie and Heatley beside him. A lot different then Greening, Michalek, Condra, Conacher... etc. I think if he gets to keep Hemsky it will see an improvement in Spezza's scoring next season back to ppgish.
 

The Fuhr*

Guest
You say can't control the injuries... I say injuries are part of the issue

You want to invest big money into a player who has injury problems and is not even a PPG player when healthy anymore.

Basically going to pay 7-8 million dollars for 65-70GP and 60-65Pts

Awesome
 

King Karlsson

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Sep 30, 2011
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That play was ridiculously overrated

Spezza played it about as perfectly as you'd want him to

The issue was Crosby passed it because he couldn't do anything else due to Spezza and Elliott let in a shot from the point right after

The problem wasn't Spezza on that play, the problem was the goaltender

That play somehow was the #1 playoff assist on TSN.. I shook my head.
 

John Holmes*

Guest
That play was ridiculously overrated

Spezza played it about as perfectly as you'd want him to

The issue was Crosby passed it because he couldn't do anything else due to Spezza and Elliott let in a shot from the point right after

The problem wasn't Spezza on that play, the problem was the goaltender

You mean other than coughing up the puck in the first place?

But yeah Elliott was garbage.
 

Sens Rule

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Sep 22, 2005
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You say can't control the injuries... I say injuries are part of the issue

You want to invest big money into a player who has injury problems and is not even a PPG player when healthy anymore.

Basically going to pay 7-8 million dollars for 65-70GP and 60-65Pts

Awesome

1235 goals for Ottawa since 2008/09. All years, even the shortened season Spezza missed 90% of. Spezza has 342 points. Spezza is a part of 27.7% of the goals Ottawa has scored over 6 years. This year he was in on 27.9% of our goals. In 2011/12 he was in on 33.7% of the teams 249 goals.

Is that worth $7 million a season? Is it worth $7 million next season when the cap is $71 million and the team probably (in my estimation) will spend around ballpark $65 million. Is 10-12 % of our cap space/payroll too much to spend on a scoring forward that contributes that much offensively?

I would try to resign Spezza for 7 years at $6.5 million a season. Spezza gets a long contract (and a year early), team gets a team friendly cap number and the contract is not more then Karlsson's. Clearly Spezza could get more on a shorter term deal and could get 7 years for maybe more on the open market. He does get to sign it a year early which is insurance against injury. And he knows he won't have to move and he can raise his family here. Long term he makes 8-9% of the likely increasing cap. You have 20 players on a roster and $70ish million in cap space. Approx $2.85 Million a player slot. Slotting in Spezza at $7 or $6.5 Million hardly is a detriment to the team.

I am not in love with Spezza. He can even frustrate me at times. He can also dazzle me. The issue I have with the idea of trading Spezza is that we will very likely not get as talented player in return, either now or in the future. If we could guarantee that then sure, maybe I would consider trading him for another big piece. That is unlikely though, we will likely get a veteran player that is average or slightly above, a good prospect and a good pick. Which likely drains elite talent out of our franchise. 30 teams means incredible parity. There are so many good and very good players. There are not that many truly elite talents and not many near elite talents. Spezza has 4 seasons (Pizza years and 2011/12) where he was an elite player and the rest of his career he has been a near elite talent. How many players are a lock for top 40 in NHL scoring if they play at least 75 games?

The Senators have exactly two elite offensive players. Spezza and Karlsson. I think we saw Ryan is not elite offensively this year. Very, very good but not elite. Then through in Turris and MacArthur and that is the 5 (add Hemsky is 6) really talented offensive players. You need to have as many of these as possible. Without Spezza we are without a top scoring threat at forward. Compared to teams like Chicago that have 4 of them, that's not good at all. You can end up being Nashville'd and never getting a really good scoring forward.

Many people act like it is easy to attract talent. So few players get to UFA because teams recognize the need to keep as much of their own talent as possible. If you don't have a top 2 or top 3 pick, your chance of getting an elite scorer in the draft is pretty tough. You totally can get one throughout the first round, though it is kind of lucky when you do as most never work out. Especially past 7 or 8ish. Top talent is hard to come by. Players in the top 10 percentile. There are loads of good players that are a bit above average or offer loads of intangibles. But the truly elite are spread sparsely among 30 teams.

When the Sens were insanely great they had 7 elite talents at one time. Player's like Havlat, Alfredsson, Spezza, Heatley, Hasek, Chara, Redden. Havlat and Redden were elite player's at one time. The good old days. Damn the Olympics!!!!!

Almost always you lose in a quality for quantity trade. Which a Spezza trade almost inevitably would be.

Spezza is currently 30 years old (soon to be 31). He is not too old to still have some more elite seasons. In my opinion.
 

OD99

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Oct 13, 2012
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What? I've seen him do that many times. Especially on the wing with Spezza. I also recall Zibanejad walking defenders 1on1 with ease when he's on his game. It's not that Zibanejad doesn't have as much creativity, imo. It's more that his style of play is better suited at driving the net using his big body, speed and reach and creating chances for himself and for his wingers.

Heck, on the PP, he has made some beautiful plays/passes.

Well I can concede perhaps I am forgetting a couple but like most I watch every game, sometimes more than once, and I am very comfortable in saying that Zibby has not stopped up or curled to make time for himself and hit a trailer or create a play often at all.

I think he has a great touch and makes fantastic little passes down low off the cycle and behind the net but for the most part he doesn't seem like he wants the puck on his stick, he dishes it off as quick as he can and most creative players want to hang on to the puck as long as they can.

As for walking guys 1-1 with ease? We will agree to disagree...he has done it a couple of times for sure but again, he doesn't hold on to the puck that long and usually take a long shot or heads for the corner wide when 1-1.
 

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