Turris and Zibanejad potentially elite center combo

[Ice-Tray]

I think Turris is basically playing the way he will for the next half dozen years. He might get past 60 points a few times, he might pot 30 goals a couple of times. I think he will get better, especially defensively, and he will become more consistent and less streaky as he matures. I think he is a 25 goal 50-65 point centre who can play both special teams and be a top checking centre capable of playing vs anyone. He could become and seems likely to become a Toews or Bergeron lite. Not as good as either of them but the same kind of full 5 tool effectiveness and ability to be effective defensively in every game. And I mean lite.... Turris basically is going to polish what he has already shown and get a little better at all aspects of his game. That means he is not going to be a ppg or top 20 scorer. He isn't going to win a Selke either, though he will likely get handfuls of votes many years.

That is what I expect anyway. Turris won't likely ever reach the scoring pace Spezza reached even this season.... in my opinion. Turris is not going to make quantum leaps in development. What you see is what you get... except polish, consistency and slight marginal improvements.

Very nicely put, and my sentiments exactly.

I will add that I believe that he is a brilliant 2C on a cup contending team.

 

[Ice-Tray]

i see what you're saying, but....
do you not see how that is a redundant comment?
Of course no one is an "insert number" point center until they reach that mark

People are already calling him a 60 point player... Or I made it up...

 

[The Fuhr*]

In essence yes, that is what this thread has become. We will trade Spezza and the Turris and Zib will both becoem 60 point players.

Seems as though I'm in the minority that has a slight problem with this scenario.

If they don't then they end up getting lots of wicked develop time and the Sens get a high pick in a loaded draft.

I'm not seeing the downside in that

Either the team does well or a rebuilding team gets a wicked pick

Where's the downside?

 

[Smitty26]

In essence yes, that is what this thread has become. We will trade Spezza and the Turris and Zib will both becoem 60 point players.

Seems as though I'm in the minority that has a slight problem with this scenario.

i dont think anyone means that it will happen over night dude. if they do, thats dumb. but its not unrealistic in the slightest to think that it is the end result, years 2-3 years down the road.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

If they don't then they end up getting lots of wicked develop time and the Sens get a high pick in a loaded draft.

I'm not seeing the downside in that

Either the team does well or a rebuilding team gets a wicked pick

Where's the downside?

This is how I see it as well. What better time to experiment with our future, especially when they appear to be ready to take on bigger roles, while also having consolation prize of an incredibly deep draft if things blow up.

 

[Smitty26]

People are already calling him a 60 point player... Or I made it up...

you can call someone a 60 point player if you are speaking of a topic that is meant to be a projection for something in the near future.

ie. he is projected to be a 60 point scorer, yadda yadda. Whats the word for saying one word, where it also implies another word in front of it? honestly dont know the word, and have no intent to look it up.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Less than a goal per game difference translates to a 5-10 point difference over an 82 game stretch. That's hardly insignificant. Besides, there are good reasons to try to adjust for 05-06, precisely because rule changes meant increased PP time league-wide, which translated into significantly more offence. It isn't a matter of convenience to try to adjust for that. It would be a matter of convenience if I tried to adjust 10-11 and 11-12, since goal scoring barely fluctuated between those seasons.

The injury was a pretty big issue for Ryan starting in early December. That's when his goal scoring and offensive production started to drop off (Dec 5th). By January, it became noticable that he was slumping, and that's when people started to criticize the trade and try to validate Burke's criticisms.

Turris's post-Olympic 'dive' was still 14 points in 23 games, a 50 point pace. He certainly struggled, but attributing that exclusively to Ryan's injury seems to ignore how well he played in January with an injured Ryan bouncing on and off his wing. For comparison's sake, Ryan was at a mediocre 0.5 PPG pace during January, which, again, was nearly a PPG month for Turris.


And I have to disagree with your last point. If a player has 58 points, it's way more accurate to say he's a 60 point player than to label him a 50 point guy.

And yes, I think 49 points is essentially a 50 goal scorer. I'm not going to run around acting like a 49 goal scorer is way less valuable than a guy who got 50.

I don't want to get into bashing Turris because I really like him. He played great for most of the season, and fell off at the end. In my opinion this is where his greatest growth needs to, and likely will, be. Consistency.

As for the numbers, we'll just agree to disagree; you're not a 60 point player if you've never hit 60 points, and you're not a 60 point player if you hit it once in 5 years. You're NEVER a 50 goal scorer if you haven't scored 50 goals in a season, it's kind of a big deal, and not the greatest of comparisons.

 

[The Fuhr*]

i dont think anyone means that it will happen over night dude. if they do, thats dumb. but its not unrealistic in the slightest to think that it is the end result, years 2-3 years down the road.

That's what I'm thinking... Both top six picks... People talk about tanking and building around high draft picks

Kyle Turris 24yrs old 3rd overall
Mike Zibanejad 21yrs old 6th overall

Ride that combo and see what happens

 

[Ice-Tray]

If they don't then they end up getting lots of wicked develop time and the Sens get a high pick in a loaded draft.

I'm not seeing the downside in that

Either the team does well or a rebuilding team gets a wicked pick

Where's the downside?

The downside is that we try and rebuild again without ever seeing this rebuild through.

The downside is that by the time these new draft picks are NHL ready, it will be time for the board to demand that all players over 30 be tossed.

The downside is that we start a cycle of half rebuilding, completely ignoring that we have some amazing pieces to build around right now, and that I for one, don't support selling them off for the low percentage chance that we draft something better down the road during the next rebuild.

 

[Ice-Tray]

i dont think anyone means that it will happen over night dude. if they do, thats dumb. but its not unrealistic in the slightest to think that it is the end result, years 2-3 years down the road.

My point is that it is far MORE likely, given NHL history, that Zib will never be a 60 point centre.

My point is that we are a worse team going forward if Turris and Zib are our 1-2. We will miss the playoffs yet not be bad enough for lottery pics.

 

[CanadianHockey]

I don't want to get into bashing Turris because I really like him. He played great for most of the season, and fell off at the end. In my opinion this is where his greatest growth needs to, and likely will, be. Consistency.

As for the numbers, we'll just agree to disagree; you're not a 60 point player if you've never hit 60 points, and you're not a 60 point player if you hit it once in 5 years. You're NEVER a 50 goal scorer if you haven't scored 50 goals in a season, it's kind of a big deal, and not the greatest of comparisons.

But he was consistent.

30 points through 41, 28 points in the last 41.


I agree with a lot of what you've been saying, for what it's worth. I don't think Turris will be much better than ~60 points and think he's still a bit worse than Bergeron. I think Zibby will be hard pressed to match Krejci's production. If we trade Spezza to roll with those two, we are probably a worse team.

 

[Benjamin]

Hmmm, I don't remember typing that anywhere. I do remember typing something along the lines of WHO CARES!

The guys cored 70 points in a season as a kid. It was special, deal with it. Turris has yet to accomplish a feat of that magnitude and is much older now. Doesn't mean that he's not a great player and that we're not all happy to have him.

What it does mean is that it's a crap way to make a point when you have to try and diminish the achievements of another player to make ours seem better.

Now you know what I think, so you won't have to make things up...

I wasn't sure if thats what you were implying.

Fact is, it was easier to get 70 points in 05 than it is now. 58 points now is essentially the same as 70 from then.

 

[Smitty26]

The downside is that we try and rebuild again without ever seeing this rebuild through.

The downside is that by the time these new draft picks are NHL ready, it will be time for the board to demand that all players over 30 be tossed.

The downside is that we start a cycle of half rebuilding, completely ignoring that we have some amazing pieces to build around right now, and that I for one, don't support selling them off for the low percentage chance that we draft something better down the road during the next rebuild.

I agree with all of this. I dont WANT to trade Spezza, and have to go with turris and zib at 1 and 2. but if spezza absolutely has to go....i am not seeing it as the end of the world, given that it will be the hand we are dealt by ownership/spezza/ect.

 

[The Fuhr*]

The downside is that we try and rebuild again without ever seeing this rebuild through.

The downside is that by the time these new draft picks are NHL ready, it will be time for the board to demand that all players over 30 be tossed.

The downside is that we start a cycle of half rebuilding, completely ignoring that we have some amazing pieces to build around right now, and that I for one, don't support selling them off for the low percentage chance that we draft something better down the road during the next rebuild.

The fact is this team has tons of upcoming UFAs and if Melnyk is not prepared to spend 65 million as soon as next season then this collection of talent means nothing.

I'd rather collect future assets then see UFAs walk

 

[Ice-Tray]

That's what I'm thinking... Both top six picks... People talk about tanking and building around high draft picks

Kyle Turris 24yrs old 3rd overall
Mike Zibanejad 21yrs old 6th overall

Ride that combo and see what happens

By that logic why not ride the

Spezza
Turris
Zib

combo and build around our high draft picks. Turris and Zib have gotten better each year, and Spezza is still PPG, what's not to like?

Turris is getting as much ice time as he will ever get, and zib is not far off. If the third line was more effective, it would have played more. There is absolutely NO reason to force a 22 year old centre into a role that is over his head.

 

[Smitty26]

My point is that it is far MORE likely, given NHL history, that Zib will never be a 60 point centre.

My point is that we are a worse team going forward if Turris and Zib are our 1-2. We will miss the playoffs yet not be bad enough for lottery pics.

what facts within NHL history make it unlikely for Zib to ever be a 60 point center? certainly not draft pedigree, or the linemates he has played his limited minutes with his whole career. if theres is something else im missing please let me know, im honestly curious what facts suggest that.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I wasn't sure if thats what you were implying.

Fact is, it was easier to get 70 points in 05 than it is now. 58 points now is essentially the same as 70 from then.

No it's not. We really shouldn't get into playing that game. Turris is not as good a player as Bergeron, there's no shame in that.

 

[Ice-Tray]

But he was consistent.

30 points through 41, 28 points in the last 41.


I agree with a lot of what you've been saying, for what it's worth. I don't think Turris will be much better than ~60 points and think he's still a bit worse than Bergeron. I think Zibby will be hard pressed to match Krejci's production. If we trade Spezza to roll with those two, we are probably a worse team.

He really tailed off at the end of the year when we needed him most, he was fairly consistent for most of the season, but played his best hockey for the first 3/4. I'd rather he did the opposite if possible.

 

[Smitty26]

No it's not. We really shouldn't get into playing that game. Turris is not as good a player as Bergeron, there's no shame in that.

not yet hes not I dont think there is any reason to believe it is impossible to be at least, very close.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I agree with all of this. I dont WANT to trade Spezza, and have to go with turris and zib at 1 and 2. but if spezza absolutely has to go....i am not seeing it as the end of the world, given that it will be the hand we are dealt by ownership/spezza/ect.

I agree, I'll roll with whatever happens, but I'm no fan of seeing our captain run out of town. We will be much worse for it, now, and going forward.

People are relying on hopes and reams to fill the void, and it isn't going to happen.

 

[Ice-Tray]

The fact is this team has tons of upcoming UFAs and if Melnyk is not prepared to spend 65 million as soon as next season then this collection of talent means nothing.

I'd rather collect future assets then see UFAs walk

I'd rather wait and see what EM does first.

 

[Smitty26]

the complete and honest message of this thread probably is....Spezza, please stay. While im confident turris and zib CAN be similar to bergeron/krejci....id rather have spezza....and (potential)bergeron....and (potential)krejci

 

[Ice-Tray]

what facts within NHL history make it unlikely for Zib to ever be a 60 point center? certainly not draft pedigree, or the linemates he has played his limited minutes with his whole career. if theres is something else im missing please let me know, im honestly curious what facts suggest that.

That it's highly unlikely for an NHL player to hit 60 points ever! Very few ever hit the mark, and even fewer do it consistently.

As a centre it's even MORE difficult because you are expected to drive the offence while your wingers rack up their 60 point seasons off YOU.

 

[Ice-Tray]

not yet hes not I dont think there is any reason to believe it is impossible to be at least, very close.

I want it too brother, trust me.

I hope he becomes better, and think he will, but he has a lot of work to do, and it's not all in the numbers.

 

[Ice-Tray]

the complete and honest message of this thread probably is....Spezza, please stay. While im confident turris and zib CAN be similar to bergeron/krejci....id rather have spezza....and (potential)bergeron....and (potential)krejci

Amen